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alurra

Silence can be golden ....

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Today, after a few things that happened, I thought perhaps a "gag" ability for those of rank within a guild might be a nice thing. I know you can 'gag' someone in a privately created channel, how come that feature is not available within guild chat? Just a thought ....

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Well if you really need to gag someone in your own guild maby its time to send him / her packing.

I can understand this feature in like wow or other large guild games. But adding thoes types of guild commands will probably just lead to even more drama Like

 

[New_playes] Kicked:  Hey guys why did you gag me????m   are you insane??????   oh everyone.. dont join this guild..  there all morons bla bla bla...

 

Johnsilver

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Or, it could just give someone the right amount of time they need to cool off just a little bit before they say things they don't really mean ....

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Unfortunately, there are always some folks that need to 'vent' their feelings. Usually after they have had their say they regret what they said, sometimes not. If it keeps up, then they are in the wrong guild and should leave or be kicked.

 

A gag function in guild chat would only cause the person to get frustrated and then the chat would spill over to public channels for all to see, which most folks don't want to see the drama.

 

Some compassion, and discussion might help to calm matters down. Or maybe not, who knows.

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You want to know what the greatest part of my 'suggestion' is? Is that it can be implemented and used by those of us who feel we MIGHT want to do that, or NOT used by those of you who feel that it shouldn't be. It is only a function that is already in game in other places. For myself, I would like to see it implemented within guild chat.

 

As for what you have to say about it Klyde, you are absolutely right, sometimes people need to vent. Other times it is the responsibility of an officer to calm a situation and THEN determine if that person should be removed or retained. To just boot someone from your guild because they got obnoxious I feel would cause the EXACT thing that you are speaking of. It would spill into regular chat about how guild x is y and so on and so forth. I have seen that happen before on many occasions.

 

My thinking was strictly for those moments in time when tempers flare and things escalate beyond the point it should. If a request is made by an officer or other member that it be toned down or taken private and it is not, I think it would be fair to have the ability to 'gag' them until they do take it where it belongs or they have sufficiently calmed. If a guild is clear about the rules and the results of broken rules, then being gagged shouldn't cause an offender to drop guild out of frustration and vent all over the rest of the servers channels. If someone should decide that is the appropriate reaction to a broken rule and resultant consequence then nothing is going to stop them, neither gag nor boot.

 

Again, this is not a function that I would say should be available to all members of a guild, it is something that should only be available to officers and above. I can only assume that each guild has a way of choosing their officers and if your guild has officers that would abuse the 'gag' function, then perhaps you should take a look at your choices of promoted players?

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GMs have a gag function, players do too, it's called 'ignore' ;)

 

As far as I know it's working unless we broke it at some point and it was never reported.

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I have to say I agree with points on both sides of the argument. I personally don't feel its a big enough issue to bother with adding myself even though it would probably be like a 30 min or less thing for devs to add (purely guessing as a non coder total inter-dweeb). And yes its a feature in other channels but truth be told if someone wants to bad mouth someone they are going to find a way to do it period.

 

Using myself as an example most people know me in game as Transcendence or possibley Supremacy. I can be annoying or say controversial things sometimes like anyone else but generally keep the peace. One day though about 3 weeks ago a week after first getting the game someone said the wrong thing on the wrong day and I blew up into a cussing fest, first in guild then in new player chat.  I DO wish smeone would of gagged me then because it might of spared me from saying what I did to get banned but at the end of the day it was still on me 100%.

 

I'm always in favor of more tools/features. I feel this one is more "fluff" than really needed though. If people annoy you block em, if they annoy the guild tell them to chill. If they don't chill kick them for 24 hours and say they can reapply to the guild again tomorrow and this is a warning. If they are a repeat offender ban them from your guild etc.

 

If people wanna trash talk your guild to the public they will find a way like I said, regardless. Only a GM can gag them for good and knowing Black he doesn't put up with that kinda BS and will usually just temp ban someone (trust me i know i got 72 hrs fr a first offense). So ya. Would it be cool, sure! Is it necessary at the moment, no.  If dev's are up for it and its a quick add I'd say go for it. Otherwise it just takes away from other things they could be doing.

 

TL:DR - Good idea maybe down the road but not needed right now unless its a quick add and devs/players vote yes which i doubt they will imo.

 

P.S. And that's my unbiased opionion from both sides. Sorry if I repeated myself, or rambled, or you are sitting here like huh? I'm an old man 31 and I just woke up :)

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I think the original poster's intent was to temporary mute someone who goes off on a rant against another guild member in a guild chat. Sure 'ignore' works but you can't make every guild member apply 'ignore' or to make the offending member take their rant to a 'tell' or another channel. Ignore wouldn't work in a guild chat situation anyways, as the offending ranter can still type happily away in guild chat, and ignore is permanent.  Adding a 'gag' feature to guild chat would defuse the situation immediately, forcing the ranter to go to PM's at least not subjecting the entire guild to profanity. 

 

It is a good idea and should be implemented.

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I think the original poster's intent was to temporary mute someone who goes off on a rant against another guild member in a guild chat. Sure 'ignore' works but you can't make every guild member apply 'ignore' or to make the offending member take their rant to a 'tell' or another channel. Ignore wouldn't work in a guild chat situation anyways, as the offending ranter can still type happily away in guild chat, and ignore is permanent.  Adding a 'gag' feature to guild chat would defuse the situation immediately, forcing the ranter to go to PM's at least not subjecting the entire guild to profanity. 

 

It is a good idea and should be implemented.

 

And what's to stop abuse? Or to certify that the rest of the guild doesn't want to hear what is being said? Maybe they think it's a valid point. The only way this is fair is the ignore option, where each person can make the choice to tune out, that's why its implemented this way in AAA games as well, rather than trusting community referendum. The reason is because certain popular people must sway a crowd into following them into doing something when its not really appropriate, whereas a GM can be trusted to be objective, or I remove them from the equation. Ignore isn't permanent, you can remove your ignore on someone.. if that's not working let us know but this probably won't be implemented for the above reason.

 

If a guild member is challenging the leadership of the guild, they have the option to remove that person, that's as far as it can go, a player cannot silence another player on a permanent, or even temporary basis to avoid abuse.

 

This is why I, and many other 'real' developers think its a bad idea, it is commonplace for people as a rule to follow the crowd, even if the crowd isn't right. This is a standard psychological concept, also known as 'Crowd Psychology'. Hope that helps in understanding our position.

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What's to stop abuse? By whom? An officer of the guild? If an officer is abusing the /gag function they would be removed from that rank no? The guild leadership has recourse.  If the guild leadership is abusing the /gag function, the members have recourse... they leave the guild because who wants to be part of that. Are you inferring that guild leaders can't be trusted or objective like the GMs?  <_< Most of the player base are advanced in years, far exceeding that of the 'real developers'. I am sure they are mature enough to handle the awesome power of /gag Kyp. There would be no 'community referendum' and I am not even sure what you meant by this. It could or would be a feature restricted to Rank 7 and above like the 'remove' function, and only until the player logged off or the /gag timed out. Ignore is permanent in the sense that you would have to 'un-ignore' a person. 

 

The feature would be to limit a litany of profanity perhaps coming from a certain player or the harassment of another guild member. It has nothing to do with 'certain popular people' trying to sway opinion. Most guilds have their own forums or even Net-7 forums to 'sway opinion', and if reasonably presented - the guild chat itself. At any rate, apparently there is a hard and fast rule that "a player cannot silence another player on a permanent, or even temporary basis to avoid abuse." I haven't seen this one yet,

 

So the only recourse would be to kick a player from a guild to stop the abuse, or waiting for a GM to log on in a few hours to deal with a situation that has long since escalated beyond repair, as opposed to muting the player for 5 mins to calm them down and then find a solution while everyone is still part of the guild. Makes perfect sense,

 

 

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Because muting that player is going to make them calm down, you think? I highly doubt it.

 

Sure there are some here that would use it responsibly just as in any community, but just as sure as that are some who would abuse it in any game environment. Crowd psychology is a certainty, its normal and its expected, that's why this same function doesn't exist in any game. A player may choose to ignore it if they want to, and if not they don't have to but to be honest I don't see the problem if its solely within the guild to be honest, I was of the understanding you wished a gag that was game wide, that's not feasible and it won't be implemented to a player under any circumstance.

 

If its JUST within the guild, we could do something like that within the guild for like the top two ranks or something, but outside of the guild it's not going to happen, which negates the reasoning for it as I understood above what with them taking it to a general channel to curse you except in the case where they fear the retribution of a GM, in which case the GM already has the ability to do so if they consider it necessary. This in turn negates any real need for it since you can remove an abusive guild member if you're a higher rank. Ignore covers the reasons you list in this post Algaron. I fail to get the argument in this case, perhaps you can clarify further?

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Actually most AAA MMO's allow for this type of thing. I listed a few below.

These are called Recruitment Ranks by most of us that run large Guilds.

Once some one has proven themselves worthy of chatting, we Promote them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

World of Warcraft allows you to create a Guild Rank that doesn't allow Guild Chat.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Guild_list_%28interface%29

 

Star Wars The Old Republic also allows a non-chat Rank:

http://www.swtor.com/gamemanual/how-to-play/guilds

 

Runescape as well:

http://services.runescape.com/m=rswiki/en/Clan_Chat

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seeing as we are unable to change the Guild Permissions HUD to add this type of permission set; two suggestions from a non "real" DEV.

1) Set Recruit Rank of all guilds to Non-Guild Chat Abilities. (Not Ideal)

or

2) Add a simple /GC Gag Darkk 60  (player + number of minutes)

 

In the end, if someone is being abusive or obscene in Guild Chat, I as a Guild Officer or Leader would be the first to just kick them.

No reason to /gag, if they were asked to shutup.

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Well I am sure you read the OP comments and not just skimmed over it. The OP, who it appears is a Lieutenant in a guild, did not mention a /gag feature for any other channel except in a Guild Chat. I am sure you are well aware that those with that rank (Rank 5) is not able to 'kick' or remove anyone. That is only available to those with Rank 7 or higher. In a scenario where Rank 5 is the highest ranking guild member online, there is no recourse, as they can not remove the offending player. Most people want to avoid the drama like a plague, so any feature that can remove the fuel from the fire, and put it in a more controlled environment (Teamspeak or Tells) is always a good thing. BTW kicking people from your guild is always a last resort don't you think? Some people may just be having a bad day when they go off on their rant, but overall are great guild members. And yes Kyp I do think it would calm them down enough to discuss the issue away from the Guild, and I didn't even take Psych 101.

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Algaron,

 

Apologies then, I misunderstood the intent; however, I still think its a bad idea. The vast majority of our players might not abuse it, but some may, and it may cause backlash that is simply unnecessary. I was under the impression we had given you the ability to control your permissions within your guild to an extent. I will check on the code for this, as you should be able to assign the ability to kick to a lower rank if you so choose but that being said.. if it is simply within the guild chat, it is not as much of a problem from my viewpoint on the situation. Now that being said, what is the reason it can't be reported to a GM and ignored? That same psych class you mentioned, and any customer service job will typically teach you that to not feed that fire will result in it going out whereas taking away someone's ability to speak is typically viewed as a tyrannical action and serves to further inflame a temper.

 

Darkk,

 

I don't value anyone's suggestions less than any other, and never have. I'll have to admit it is certainly news to me though that these games are allowing it. It was something that was always looked bad upon by those same developers but there's a distinct difference in disallowing chat by default for a group and taking it away, mainly that the expectation is there up front if the group is simply disallowed. It was discussed many times at the IGDA forums, and they believe on average that it results in people getting gagged that do not truly deserve it. This is something better left to a CS type staff member in a professional game and very often has been. The expectation is set up front as opposed to a retaliation to something they said (or continued to say, as the case may be) which I still think would further agitate that person, and maybe not in all situations but some they would take it to a public channel to talk about what you're doing to them and to tell others not to join your guild. This is not something the public wants to see on average I think as people want to play without dealing with drama in most cases. You even say yourself that you would rely on kick if you asked them to be quiet and they did not or continued to break the rules of your guild.

 

I should think what leadership there is within your guild should be respected by its members and if they ask you not to do something, you don't. If a GMs intervention is required, it can be requested but again, I will look into the existing permissions and the ability to add them to your lower ranks as indicated above.

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3 Years of running a guild in wow and other experience of similar jobs as officer in variuos games i've seen first hand how these things play out.

First of all if the guild has a good structure these things can be solved by the managemet. For i.e we had a guild page where people could report

bad behaviour and post screens if no officer was online while abuse took place. Trusted members can simply tell an officer and then its up to them to set

the person straight.

wow does have a gag function..  sorta..  you can simply add a guild rank that wont allow talk in chat and when someone goes out of line you move them to this rank.

I'd say of the maby 20 people who ever made it to that "gag" rank 18 left guild within 5 minutes after not beeing able to go on ranting. Officers voted to have it

removed and after that we added the simple report to officer if abused rule.  It worked fine and only once did I as a GL have to actually kick someone out.

If its made clear from the guild policy that you allow no slander or abuse or missbehaviour you can lean on that as officer when you reprimand a member for stepping

out of line. If he chooses to igonre you, well..  Kindly tell him/her this is not a guild for you. *Kick* and move on.

 

Johnsilver

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