Trade Run XP

[comsciguy82]

My TT has level 6 Negotiate and I frequently use WH to do Fenris runs. It seems to be the fastest trade XP available, as I can get about a Trade level every 15-20 minutes or so, at TL40+. One thing I have noticed in doing this is that the trade XP that you receive is based on the sell price of the item, NOT THE PROFIT EARNED.

Example: I buy Nanobots (L5) from Fenris at 1502 credits each. I WH to Carpenter, warp to Somerled and sell 50% quality goods back for 1581 credits (79 credit profit) and receive 1100 Trade XP. If I were to do this trade run the long way, I would receive 3163 credits (1661 credit profit) and 2100 Trade XP. I recently WH'd twice and sold the 25% quality goods for 790 credits (712 credit loss) and received 260 Trade XP.

If I remember in live, whenever you sold a trade good at it's appropriate station, the dialog said something about the PROFIT that was earned, rather than how many credits you were selling the item for, and your trade XP was based upon this number. Obviously the current system is not looking at profit but sale price. I think that the trade XP that can be earned for doing a trade run without a wormhole is balanced as is, but allowing XP to be earned for little profit, or loss, should not continue as it is.

Edit: Correction on 'long run' XP earned.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Thorndarien

[comsciguy82]

I did a little bit of testing and came up with the following, adding in some Prasad runs just as a basis of comparison. I was a TT with 36 cargo spaces, trade level 43, 6 points in Negotiate, with 4.3k warp. I didn't necessarily carry a full cargo load with me each time, but multiplied the amount to get the values for a full load.

Trade route        | Round trip time | Trade XP | Profit  | % of level | Avg. time to level
Fenris/Somerled:  Research Equipment/Nanobots
  Without Wormhole |      33 Minutes |  136,800 | 107,568 |  Appx. 46% | 72 Minutes
  With Wormhole    |       6 Minutes |   72,000 |   9,288 |  Appx. 24% | 25 Minutes
Prasad/Somerled:  Spices/Jenquai Weapons Technology
  Without Wormhole |      10 Minutes |   64,800 |  43,272 |  Appx. 22% | 45 Minutes
  With Wormhole    |       5 Minutes |    4,032 |  -3,348 | Appx. 1.4% | 365 Minutes
Prasad/Somerled:  Weapons Crates/Jenquai Weapons Technology
  Without Wormhole |      10 Minutes |   57,600 |  38,556 | Appx. 20%  | 50 Minutes

At level 43 it appears that wormhole for Prasad runs is not worthwhile, however at lower levels it might yield better XP. Obviously, if you are going to wormhole, you should do Fenris/Somerled runs.

I also believe that this exploit depends on having Negotiate, as the JE I used as a taxi got significantly less trade XP when I would wormhole. I did not test any of the routes on the JE without wormhole.

[Gunney]

I also believe that this exploit depends on having Negotiate,

Where is the 'exploit' in here?

[comsciguy82]

Where is the 'exploit' in here?

Trade goods take quality loss from wormholes in order to prevent people from using wormholes for their trade runs. The fact that Negotiate allows Fenris/Somerled runs to yield Trade XP at almost 3 times the normal rate means that the mechanic is not working as intended and could be considered an exploit. Maybe it technically isn't an 'exploit' but you get the idea.

[garblesoup]

If I remember in live, whenever you sold a trade good at it's appropriate station, the dialog said something about the PROFIT that was earned, rather than how many credits you were selling the item for, and your trade XP was based upon this number. Obviously the current system is not looking at profit but sale price. I think that the trade XP that can be earned for doing a trade run without a wormhole is balanced as is, but allowing XP to be earned for little profit, or loss, should not continue as it is.

Edit: Correction on 'long run' XP earned.

I'm not sure about this. Determining profit would require the game to log the purchase price (if the item was even purchased, more on that later) for later reference for each item to compare to the sale price at sell time. I don't have access to the code so I'm clearly just guessing but I can't see that happening. And what of the items that weren't purchased - there are/were a fair number of trade goods that dropped from mobs - how is profit calculated from these when a player makes the effort to sell them to the appropriate vendor?

I have no philosophical objection to the XP being indexed to profit vs. sell price, I'm just not certain the mechanics are in the game to support it.

[fuulishone]

@Thorn

Can you redo your chart with single pieces only? And try selling to the other vendors to see what you get.

Sometime around April/May, there was a change made to how trade xp was calculated for trade runs so that all WH'ed goods should fall low enough to result in no profit and no xp regardless of Negotiate level. Your numbers would seem to indicate that some change may have made it into the code that's not intentional since you have what appears to be trade xp in excess of 2k per item.

AFAIK, 2k xp per trade good is supposed to be the max that anyone with Negotiate can get. 1k xp was for non-negotiate classes. If you're getting more than 2k xp, that's a bug.

[Terrell [BT]]

AFAIK, 2k xp per trade good is supposed to be the max that anyone with Negotiate can get. 1k xp was for non-negotiate classes. If you're getting more than 2k xp, that's a bug.

I was getting 2K XP per item from Fenris to Somerled with Negotiate 5 on my JT, TW, and TE, but they were all capped at negotiate 5, I would think that the TT with Negotiate 6 or 7 would get a little more.

[fuulishone]

I was getting 2K XP per item from Fenris to Somerled with Negotiate 5 on my JT, TW, and TE, but they were all capped at negotiate 5, I would think that the TT with Negotiate 6 or 7 would get a little more.

Have you tried WH runs to see if those capped at Neg 5 get trade xp? If they don't, then perhaps it's working as intended and is a bonus for being a TT?

[HellHasArrived]

I know for a fact a TT would get over 2k xp per nano bot with max negotiate.I beleive it was 2200 I would get for them. Every other class only would get 2k xp per nano bot with max negotiate, it's the 2 extra levels in negotiate as to why the TT gets more.

[Terrell [BT]]

Have you tried WH runs to see if those capped at Neg 5 get trade xp? If they don't, then perhaps it's working as intended and is a bonus for being a TT?

No hadn't used my JE to assist my TW in trade runs. I was referring to what my Seeker, Enforcer, and Scout got when they were doing trade runs both in ST3 and ST4, back when BBW was open from Fenris to Somerled with Neg 5 unassisted. My TW did get some assistance from my JW, via the Summon Friend ability in Aragoth Prime. I do have a TT but it will be a long time before she's big enough to test with wh. With the advent of Jobs, my Scout and Enforcer are doing them instead of trade runs, since they're also an opportunity to work on faction, as well as 2 types of XP at once.

[comsciguy82]

@Thorn

Can you redo your chart with single pieces only? And try selling to the other vendors to see what you get.

Sometime around April/May, there was a change made to how trade xp was calculated for trade runs so that all WH'ed goods should fall low enough to result in no profit and no xp regardless of Negotiate level. Your numbers would seem to indicate that some change may have made it into the code that's not intentional since you have what appears to be trade xp in excess of 2k per item.

AFAIK, 2k xp per trade good is supposed to be the max that anyone with Negotiate can get. 1k xp was for non-negotiate classes. If you're getting more than 2k xp, that's a bug.

Selling Research equipment with a wormhole at Fenris netted 900 XP each and 1700 XP without the wormhole. Selling Nanobots back at Somerled netted 1100 XP each with a wormhole and 2100 XP without. Back when I had Negotiate 5, it was 1100 XP (with WH) and 2000 XP (without WH) for Nanobots. I forget the numbers for Research Equipment, but I do remember that Negotiate 6 did not increase XP gain when using a wormhole, but did when not using one.

Also, the JE Taxi got 260 XP for each Research Equipment with Wormhole at Fenris, and I did not test Nanobots for the way back.

  Item               |   Quality    | Purchase Price | Sale Price | Profit | Trade XP 
Fenris/Somerled:  Research Equipment/Nanobots
  Nanobots           | 100% (No WH) |          1,502 |      3,163 |  1,661 |    2,100
                     | 50%  (WH)    |          1,502 |      1,581 |     79 |    1,100
                     | 25%  (WHx2)  |          1,502 |        790 |   -712 |      174
  Research Equipment | 100% (No WH) |            973 |      2,304 |  1,331 |    1,700
                     | 50%  (WH)    |            973 |      1,152 |    175 |      900
                     | 25%  (WHx2)  |            973 |        576 |   -397 |       46

This chart reflects data collected tonight at TL 44; my previous data was collected at TL 43. Trade goods sold at the wrong vendor or at the wrong station never resulted in gaining Trade XP.

Edit: Added chart.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Thorndarien

[comsciguy82]

I'm not sure about this. Determining profit would require the game to log the purchase price (if the item was even purchased, more on that later) for later reference for each item to compare to the sale price at sell time. I don't have access to the code so I'm clearly just guessing but I can't see that happening. And what of the items that weren't purchased - there are/were a fair number of trade goods that dropped from mobs - how is profit calculated from these when a player makes the effort to sell them to the appropriate vendor?

I have no philosophical objection to the XP being indexed to profit vs. sell price, I'm just not certain the mechanics are in the game to support it.

The game already shows the purchase price (with Negotiate and other factors included) on the tooltip, the only issue is flagging the item as looted or purchased. The game already tracks this for combat loot to determine if you should get trade XP for selling or trading, so it should not be difficult to implement. You can even stack purchased components with looted ones and the game knows how many of them to award trade XP for.

[C Del[IS]]

The game already shows the purchase price (with Negotiate and other factors included) on the tooltip, the only issue is flagging the item as looted or purchased. The game already tracks this for combat loot to determine if you should get trade XP for selling or trading, so it should not be difficult to implement. You can even stack purchased components with looted ones and the game knows how many of them to award trade XP for.

We could certainly do this. I think the necessary field is already in the database actually. Jarod raises a good question though. What to do with loot? Should the profit from a looted item be whatever the sale price is?

[garblesoup]

We could certainly do this. I think the necessary field is already in the database actually. Jarod raises a good question though. What to do with loot? Should the profit from a looted item be whatever the sale price is?

My first thought is that, yes, if we move to a profit-based measurement then the sale price of a looted item should be 100% profit and that is what the XP should be based upon. However, that is assuming that the item in question is being sold to a Trade vendor that is actually interested in the item in question - not some random component/weapons/equipment vendor.

[C Del[IS]]

My first thought is that, yes, if we move to a profit-based measurement then the sale price of a looted item should be 100% profit and that is what the XP should be based upon. However, that is assuming that the item in question is being sold to a Trade vendor that is actually interested in the item in question - not some random component/weapons/equipment vendor.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that. I was worried about it ending up giving too much XP, but if you have to schlep out to whatever trade vendor wants the stuff, I'm sure it won't be too bad.

[fuulishone]

If you're proposing that random mob loot needs to be sold to particular vendors to balance trade xp said items, I think that would be a bad thing. You would end up hurting a lot more of the community simply to address one very specific incidence that should be fairly easy to fix.

The core point of this thread is that one particular trade run is still able to be xp positive after a wormhole. The whole profit versus pure cost discussion is strictly around the fact that one particular trade good's xp isn't affected enough by the 50% damage taken by going through a wormhole.

Simply adjust the receiving vendors buy price for the item so that you no longer stay positive and the negative profit (i.e. loss) logic should kick in whatever that happens to be.

[C Del[IS]]

If you're proposing that random mob loot needs to be sold to particular vendors to balance trade xp said items, I think that would be a bad thing. You would end up hurting a lot more of the community simply to address one very specific incidence that should be fairly easy to fix.

The core point of this thread is that one particular trade run is still able to be xp positive after a wormhole. The whole profit versus pure cost discussion is strictly around the fact that one particular trade good's xp isn't affected enough by the 50% damage taken by going through a wormhole.

Simply adjust the receiving vendors buy price for the item so that you no longer stay positive and the negative profit (i.e. loss) logic should kick in whatever that happens to be.

We're talking about trade items dropped from mobs and moving to a profit-based trade xp system, which makes more sense than what we have now. Everything but trade items would be unaffected.

[garblesoup]

If you're proposing that random mob loot needs to be sold to particular vendors to balance trade xp said items, I think that would be a bad thing. You would end up hurting a lot more of the community simply to address one very specific incidence that should be fairly easy to fix.

The core point of this thread is that one particular trade run is still able to be xp positive after a wormhole. The whole profit versus pure cost discussion is strictly around the fact that one particular trade good's xp isn't affected enough by the 50% damage taken by going through a wormhole.

Simply adjust the receiving vendors buy price for the item so that you no longer stay positive and the negative profit (i.e. loss) logic should kick in whatever that happens to be.

I don't know who is proposing that random mob loot needs to be sold to specific vendors - certainly not me, and I don't see anybody else proposing it either. Where did you see this?

I was specifically addressing TRADE GOODS that are dropped by mobs and their place in a system where Trade XP is tweaked to be driven by profit vs. sale price.

[fuulishone]

Apologies, I missed the part about trade goods dropping from mobs.

[Yuritau]

I was specifically addressing TRADE GOODS that are dropped by mobs and their place in a system where Trade XP is tweaked to be driven by profit vs. sale price.

Trade loot dropped by mobs should provide trade xp when sold anywhere you darn well please, just like any other loot, but it should have a bonus to the trade xp if you sell it at the merchant that has a demand for it. Selling it in the "wrong" place is still 100% profit, it's just less credits.