Range - beams vs projectile

[Bovyne]

Semi suggestion semi just debate. And probably been on before but could not find it.

I always wondered why jenquai used a weapon with the shortest range? and progen the middle of the road. looking at these 2 races and their skills progen would seem the better suited for up and close and jenquai more medium.

So the question would projectiles actually have more range than a beam weapon?

Projectiles should continue till they hit some thing, but the further you go the less accurate it would be, where as beams would be more accurate at further distance. The question is do beam loss power at further distance in space?

For me projectiles would be closer in weapon due to accuracy at longer distance and speed of projectiles. Beams would have a longer range.

If this was the case it would make more sense of things like gravity link and the slowing abilities of progen as well as their general higher shield and hulls to keep enemy within range and fold space of the jenquai to keep a distance, and their lower shield and hulls.

(Note the idea of missiles for jenquai does not seem right and seems to suit terran best.)

Whether that could or would be wanted to be implemented (Beams with longer range and projectiles shorter) I am not sure:)

Discuss

[Jamosite]

The following views are by me and me alone:

Don't try n change the game mechanics. enjoy it for what it is. a Jenqui should be an in your face fighter ,

think of them as a ninja that can strike you the fastest and before you can return fire they are gone. That being said.

lets not force Progens to get in somethings face to do the max damage.

quite a few people that only play Jenquais now and in live seem to hate Progens and want the worst for them.

That being said.

You must not be flying your Jenquai right. there is some neat equipment that can make your range farther then the DG has to offer.

here is a hint. "go to niff". I have a maxed out Je and a Jd. Both are great fighters that you use differently, both have extreme beam range but

since they are ninja stealth fighters i usually pop the mob right in its face. I am currently working on maxing a JT to have the entire set.

so just to state my case clear, we do not want the nerf hammer used , if you need help on learning how to maximize the usage of your Jenquais then

look me up in space

[Terrell [BT]]

Agreed, we really don't need our beam range boosted beyond what we already have available to us.

For a Jenquai you want to get your sig as low as possible, your best choice in that matter is the Solar Sail line of engines, they come in levels 2 through 4, Level 7 and Level 8. (The L8 one might not be in game yet) Those have zero sig and you should be using them in combat, regardless of whether you're an Explorer, Defender, or Seeker. For beam range boost you want to use the Gallina Reactor from levels 2 & 3, then switch to a Draco at L4-L6, then switch to the Cygnus at L7+. All those reactors boost beam range, and have a reactor buff, though the Cygnus reactor buff is of very short duration, compared to the ones on the lower reactors. Eventually when you're CL50 you will want a DG or a GoD (for any Jenquai regardless of class) for the 40% Turbo, and the sig reduction as well as the beam range boost (I think it's higher than the one you get on the Cyg 9).

Starting at L3 you want to use the Coma line of devices to blind your enemy during combat. This reduces the range that they can see you, and if a mob can't see you they can't hit you back. It's important to keep your sig as low as possible while doing this, since the higher your sig, the further away you can be seen from. (not sure if this device has been implemented fully as of yet)

[Bovyne]

No it is ok, I remember form 8 or so years back , more or less, and i am not saying the way it is is bad, and increasing beams would also increase the mobs that use beams range too.

I understand the "rogue" like mechanics and like them, though I just wonder if using those techniques a little further away would spoil the fun or make it more fun assuming that range went missiles>beams>projectiles, (though maybe just beams more closer to projectile range?)

It is more that progen scream to me in yer face fighters, certain skills like gravity link and menace skill shout close fighter to me. Where as Jenquai seem to me more slight distance fighter as you say hitting hard then either disappearing with combat cloak or moving fold space seems more distance fighter, not a huge distance but some.

But this is just my view

[Jamosite]

No it is ok, I remember form 8 or so years back , more or less, and i am not saying the way it is is bad, and increasing beams would also increase the mobs that use beams range too.

Have you tried to kill one of the chavez in paramas? or for that matter a blackbeards ghost minion?

:->

[wootage]

I know this topic is months old, but this kind of echoes a thought that popped into my head. Try this setup on for size:

Jenquai beams have the longest range and weakest damage, but Jenq have the slowest ships.

Terran missiles have middle range and middle damage and the Terrans have the second fastest but most maneuverable ships.

Projen projectiles have the shortest range and highest damage and the Projens have the fastest but least maneuverable ships.

When I look at the abilities and buffs available to each class and how they'd use them in combat, this makes a startling amount of sense. In brief:

Jenquai would use their combat cloak to launch their beam attacks from long range with extra damage, then fold space to keep the enemy away from them, or recloak and move away again to avoid taking damage against their weak shields and hulls. The ideal use of their abilities, and for a perfect rationale.

Terrans would use their speed and manueverability to maintain their optimal missile range outside of a mob's range, or move into launch range, back out to recover from damage, and back in to launch again. Again, the ideal use of their abilities and for perfectly logical reasons.

Progen would use their speed to close with enemies and then use Grav Link to hold them there so they could kill them with weapons/shield inversion.

Not saying this has to happen, but lookit how everything lines up perfectly. The Jenq and Progen ways even fits their racial personalities to a T. So I thought it worth putting out here just for interest reading

W

Edited January 19, 2011 by wootage

[ajsb1986]

The only problem with that, wootage, is it'd most likely call for a complete reconstruction of all the classes on a very fundamental level. And alot of the gear and equipment would need adjustments to keep things fairly balanced(at least as well as it is now). It's an interesting idea, but I have to say I am more in favor of the way things are now. Besides, I like having a very fast missile user, my TS.

[Hexersup[IS]]

I know this topic is months old, but this kind of echoes a thought that popped into my head. Try this setup on for size:

Jenquai beams have the longest range and weakest damage, but Jenq have the slowest ships.

Terran missiles have middle range and middle damage and the Terrans have the second fastest but most maneuverable ships.

Projen projectiles have the shortest range and highest damage and the Projens have the fastest but least maneuverable ships.

When I look at the abilities and buffs available to each class and how they'd use them in combat, this makes a startling amount of sense. In brief:

Jenquai would use their combat cloak to launch their beam attacks from long range with extra damage, then fold space to keep the enemy away from them, or recloak and move away again to avoid taking damage against their weak shields and hulls. The ideal use of their abilities, and for a perfect rationale.

Terrans would use their speed and manueverability to maintain their optimal missile range outside of a mob's range, or move into launch range, back out to recover from damage, and back in to launch again. Again, the ideal use of their abilities and for perfectly logical reasons.

Progen would use their speed to close with enemies and then use Grav Link to hold them there so they could kill them with weapons/shield inversion.

Not saying this has to happen, but lookit how everything lines up perfectly. The Jenq and Progen ways even fits their racial personalities to a T. So I thought it worth putting out here just for interest reading

W

Not really logical....

Terrans have to be the fastest to hold the distance to the mobs. Also Missiles always have longest range, never can projectile have this range. Missiles have their own drive forward, that way having the longest range.

Beams can't have the range of projectiles because beams using light, therefore need so much energy to get them focused, the more, the longer the range should be.

Progens don't need a fast engine they don't kite mobs most of the time. Also the short range skills don't give them the choice to kite effective.

What i never understood in live version that is the fact the progens have the same power on projectile as terrans on missiles.

Should never be the case. But they came up with these projectile at the end of live game and messed up that a bit.

Faster reload and 1 weapon slot more they should not have the power of missiles.

greest

Hexergirl

[wootage]

The only problem with that, wootage, is it'd most likely call for a complete reconstruction of all the classes on a very fundamental level. And alot of the gear and equipment would need adjustments to keep things fairly balanced(at least as well as it is now). It's an interesting idea, but I have to say I am more in favor of the way things are now. Besides, I like having a very fast missile user, my TS.

Well actually, my point was that you wouldn't need to reconstruct the classes at all. The thing that surprised me is how well the classes' existing abilities just line right up with these three very different combat models. Racial weapon ranges, weapon damage and ship speeds would need to change, but offhand I can't think of a single combat or support ability for any of the races that wouldn't work with these combat models.

[wootage]

Not really logical....

Terrans have to be the fastest to hold the distance to the mobs. Also Missiles always have longest range, never can projectile have this range. Missiles have their own drive forward, that way having the longest range.

Beams can't have the range of projectiles because beams using light, therefore need so much energy to get them focused, the more, the longer the range should be.

Progens don't need a fast engine they don't kite mobs most of the time. Also the short range skills don't give them the choice to kite effective.

What i never understood in live version that is the fact the progens have the same power on projectile as terrans on missiles.

Should never be the case. But they came up with these projectile at the end of live game and messed up that a bit.

Faster reload and 1 weapon slot more they should not have the power of missiles.

greest

Hexergirl

Ok, I will agree that Terrans need the fastest ships for the model I described. So perhaps ship speeds don't need to change, although I'd still say Jenq and Progen speeds should be swapped. I play a Jenq by preference, so this is a nerf to my preferred race, but it makes perfect sense given the fold space and cloak abilities, so I can go with it. In fact, if you ask "why do Jenqs have fold space and cloak?" a good reason would be that they are too slow to kite or run away. And if you asked the reverse of the Progen "why do you have fast ships" a good answer would be "so we can get in range to use our short-ranged proj launchers, shield inversion and grav link".

But I disagree on missile power and range vs projectiles. A projectile is like the warhead of a missile that doesn't need a casing and propellant, because the ship launcher supplies the velocity. So it has a shorter range, but has more velocity which adds destructive force and can use more of the projectile mass for warhead.

Whereas a missile must always balance the size of the warhead vs the amount of propellant - a small warhead with lots of propellant allows a longer range, a big warhead with less propellant a shorter range. So overall, I would give missiles the "middle" damage and range slot, because that makes sense with how they work. (In that regard, I have also questioned why ML's take so much power - they use the ammunition's propellant, so they should take almost no power, right? But that's OT.)

About beams, there you're wrong. Lasers are not focused devices, the energy comes out traveling in a perfectly straight line from the start. So they should have a lot of range, but do less damage than a physical weapon. They should also take a lot of power to shoot, but that actually plays into the Jenq's racial reactor superiority and provides another reason why that is so.

Honestly, the more I look at it, the more I wonder how EnB got the existing setups. It's like someone said "hey, combat makes too much sense. Let's scramble the races' weapon ranges and combat models to make things confusing and problematic to play" lol.

Edited January 19, 2011 by wootage

[kjeron]

If you really want to play this way just get some proto's and a DG/hodo + Vindis Beam focus and enjoy your 8k+ beam range, but its a very boring way to play. Jenquai are about surviving close up with nothing to fall back on if you screw up. It's unforgiving and fast paced, and thats why some of us play them, but what you describe would turn them into kiting TE's.

[wootage]

If you really want to play this way just get some proto's and a DG/hodo + Vindis Beam focus and enjoy your 8k+ beam range, but its a very boring way to play. Jenquai are about surviving close up with nothing to fall back on if you screw up. It's unforgiving and fast paced, and thats why some of us play them, but what you describe would turn them into kiting TE's.

No actually, I suggested making them the slowest ships so they'd have to use fold space and cloak to avoid close combat. Which just seems to make perfect sense as to why they'd have those abilities, and makes them the "paper" to the Terrans "scissors" and the Progen's "rock". I really don't understand why the Jenq race would have abilities that almost completely contradict their weapons usage. Only when you get combat cloak does it start to make sense.

By the way, did you just say TE kiting combat is boring? lolol I agree! And under my theoretical model, they wouldn't be

Edited January 21, 2011 by wootage