TS and L8 Shields

[Gobblu]

Ah, perfect. Exactly what I was wanting to know. Then there would be obviously a need for some devices to exist that would add to those skills eventually(Hmm, I smell quest items maybe?)

[Tyran]

A L8 shield with 70-80k cap is bs as that rules out all other L8 shields for the class. The suggestion is so...world of warcrafty.

[Vinzent Zeppelin[IS]]

Scouts have level 9 engines (a Terran trait) and level 9 devices (an Explorer trait). Giving them level 9 shields would necessarily require downgrading one of the other two level 9 techs to maintain balance. Consider that Scouts are the only class for which the Salamander line of devices is useful (explorer only; if it's like the Chimaera and Basilisk, a 200% level 9 has a -61% explosive resistance debuff), and more Scout-oriented equipment will be added in the future. For solo combat, I would venture that Scouts have an easier time than JE's, even having a slightly larger signature -- easily mitigated by a Baka device or Jenquai engine -- by virtue of being able to kite. They are also able to jumpstart and patch hulls. Relying on a quick-fix like giving Scouts level 9 or "level 8.5" shields may only result in them being overpowered once their skills and equipment are more completely implemented.

[Gobblu]

I didn't know there were other skills they were supposed to get untill kyp responded above. I was just tossing some ideas out. As it stands though, the level 9 engines is basicly useless IMHO. I don't have over lvl 5 engines on any of my characters, and feel the points it would take to get lvl 9 engines a complete waste. Drop the engines to 8 and give lvl 9 shields would be fine with me to keep balance (without the other skills that is). I'll wait and see once the other skills are in, and give an opinion then. I realize that may be a long time since i'm sure you devs have way more important things to work on.

[Yuritau]

I think rather than swapping L9 engines for L9 shields on a TS, they should keep things as they were intended, and instead make high level engines more worthwhile. BUT not in terms of warp speed. It's common knowledge that you can max warp on pretty low level engines with the right setups.

I think it would be better to have engines set up to provide alternating improvements per tech level. Have warp speed and sig increased every second level, and other factors (like thrust, warp cost/charge reduction, etc) increased on the in between levels. Then have 200% engines give better benefits (reduced sig, reduced warp charge/cost, increased thrust, still no increase to warp speed though).

[bondct]

then again since TS is supposed to be about speed... the TS could have TS only engines that give turbo weapons at all levels

[pull4rise]

btw did u know the a ts could have way lower sig then a ps if u know ur setups u should know the ts can get his sig to 0.2 easy which makes them near to invisible.so far i havent seen a good argument why they should have lvl9 shields...which they really dont need....kiting is not hard....

[seekeronos]

My $2.15: (inflation, heh!)

I think that a max level, "rightly-geared" (yes, that entirely remains to be seen) TS can be expected to hold their own up to around a L58~60 mob; beyond that, the TS should be hard-pressed to survive L60+ mobs without the very likely risk of loosing some hull or equipment quality/structure.

Anything much beyond that is pretty much raid event condition, or should require a bit of grouped combat at the very least.

1. Don't tweak anything with shield, leave them at L8. And please, let's toss that idea about L8.5 TS-only BBQSAUZ shields straight out before we go any further: If you are piddling around in the FB and drawing enough aggro to get Zethren'Ti's or some other big fishie's affectionate loving... you pretty much deserve to get one-shotted.

2. Don't mess with reactors (leave them at L8). Scouts are not powering massive, terrifyingly be-weaponed armoured cruisers like nearly all Progens, nor sleek missile boats like TWs, nor stealthed out energy-sucking beam users like the JDs.

3. Don't tweak devices or engines, (currently L9). Terrans are racially suited for speed and are among the most innovative of the various human factions. With the explorer racial traits, it is even more fitting that they be able to mickey-mouse a solution on short notice whilst in deep space...

Moving past what I feel are the 'non-negotiables'...

4. Afterburn: All the combat speed in the galaxy means little if it takes you 10 minute to get up to that speed. Currently, my TS (L140) runs a combat rig of a Supernova 8/NOS/Trifid 8 to give me a flat combat speed of about 1057 and an activated speed of 1557. Toss in my Cat's Paw 8 and an Eagle Wing 5, and I'm sure I could get a bit more out of it. Still, I accelerate at the same rate as my anti-fast PW (L148) who quickly reaches his 600-ish combat speed cap. My TS takes a good 10-12 sec. to hit full speed.

As the fastest dang class ever, our base acceleration/deceleration should be 1.5x that of the next fastest class (won't debate who that should be), and with AFTERBURN, it should approach a level of "press the A key, and you are moving at max combat speed in a second, release the A key, be at full stop in a second"

Add that to the rest of the "soft stat" adjustments like turn rate or dodge-a-bullet and what have you, that would be to me the equivalent of a cloak or menace: the ability to get out of trouble and lose aggro by out-ranging the mob.

5. NullFactor: Beyond what Kyp wrote - I've no idea what this will be like, other than "Rally Lite" from the sound of it.

6. Hacking: This is an atrocious, epic waste of skill points, and young TS's should not have this taking up their valuable skill tree. Unless y'all DEVs fix it for range and effectiveness, of course. A kiting class should not have to close into 1.25km clobbering range to use what could/should be the signal debuff for that class.

Things that are not, and probably will never be - but I put them out here for fun... one more epic TS skill - (choose one) :

7a. Decoy: Give the TS an ability to cast a projection of himself (skill could find a use for all those junky Holographic projector looted from mobs, ha ha) that a Mob can chew on as bait while the TS runs away. All hostile (i.e. aggroed) mobs within 3km of the decoy would be drawn to it, rather than the TS (this would be akin to cloaking for the JE and Powerdown or possibly Menace for the PE)

--- OR ---

7b. Stasis Field: A "Hacking replacement", and somewhat akin to "Forced Contemplation" of the JE. The skill could have five ranges, and works on hulled and organic mobs:

- L1: a single target sleep available from L55, lasts (max) 10sec with a 45sec recast timer at 4.5k range

- L2: a single target sleep available from L75, lasts (max) 30sec with a 45sec recast timer at 5k range

- L3: a single target sleep available from L95, lasts (max) 45sec with a 60sec recast timer at 5.5k range

- L4: a multi-target sleep available from L115, sleeps all mobs within 2km of target, lasts (max) 30sec with a 45sec recast timer at 5.5k range

- L5: a multi-target sleep available from L130, sleeps all mobs within 3.5km of target, lasts (max) 60sec with a 90sec recast timer at 7k range

Mobs of course, may resist totally or partially (sleep for less time), and higher level mobs could develop a resistance to the skill used on them over time. Oh, and damaging or further debuffing the mob in any way ... wakes him up, with some significant hate on the TS that slept him, unless the attacker can lock hate fairly quickly.

--- OR ---

7c. Target Tracking: OMG, a RAID SKILL! Roughly put, this would be an ability that gives the members of a TS's party (but not the TS himself) a marked bonus to Critical Targeting. A scout's essential job in most military applications... is to spy out the enemy's weaknesses, and then take advantage of them.

This TS-only skill would triple the Critical Targeting skills of any warrior or Progen with this skill, and increase it by a factor of 1.25x for everybody else (effectively giving all non-warriors in the group - TS excepted - the basic level Critical Targeting)

Edited May 12, 2010 by -Seeker-

[Vinzent Zeppelin[IS]]

Perhaps consider something like "Evasive Manoeuvres" -- an activated skill which reduces the chance of getting hit by enemies. Lowest levels would apply to the skill user only; higher levels allow the user to apply it to other players. It fits within the Scout's class ethos and would be useful for solo and group combat.

[Terrell [BT]]

I think rather than swapping L9 engines for L9 shields on a TS, they should keep things as they were intended, and instead make high level engines more worthwhile. BUT not in terms of warp speed. It's common knowledge that you can max warp on pretty low level engines with the right setups.

I think it would be better to have engines set up to provide alternating improvements per tech level. Have warp speed and sig increased every second level, and other factors (like thrust, warp cost/charge reduction, etc) increased on the in between levels. Then have 200% engines give better benefits (reduced sig, reduced warp charge/cost, increased thrust, still no increase to warp speed though).

You can warp 1K faster in the emulator than in Live, so I don't think we should mess with the warp levels on the engines. While a JE in Live could get to 5K with a L4 Breton, PM L8 RR+ or PM L9 Laz, L7 Navigate, and a L7 Charging Unicorn. Those will not get a JE to 6K. He does have to put more points into engine if he wants to hit the warp cap.

I do think that higher level engines should be more worthwhile, but at least in terms of warp, they already are, with the higher warp cap than was in Live. Not really sure how best to make them better, and it also may run into the issue of limited skill points before L150. (unless you're a JT)

I am curious to see what equipment that has yet to be implemented specifically for the Terran Scout, to know more about how balanced they will ultimately be.

I do think that Hacking isn't of much use, for a Scout, and Torrie hasn't spend any of her skill points on that skill. I thought it better to spend her skill points on Build Devices (so she can pay back my TW for building her ammo). Since most orefield guardians are bio-mobs, and same with Jack-a-Roid mobs, a skill that only works on mechanical mobs isn't really of any use to a Scout fpr day-to-day mining operations. Replacing that with a Scout unique support skill, or simply a Scout unique skill that helps in combat against all mobs or Bio-mobs at the very least, without making the Scout as good in combat as the Sentinel, would be nice.

[Gobblu]

I like vinzent's evasive maneuvers idea.

[bondct]

My $2.15: (inflation, heh!)

7c. Target Tracking: OMG, a RAID SKILL! Roughly put, this would be an ability that gives the members of a TS's party (but not the TS himself) a marked bonus to Critical Targeting. A scout's essential job in most military applications... is to spy out the enemy's weaknesses, and then take advantage of them.

This TS-only skill would triple the Critical Targeting skills of any warrior or Progen with this skill, and increase it by a factor of 1.25x for everybody else (effectively giving all non-warriors in the group - TS excepted - the basic level Critical Targeting)

SEE!!! now we are talking... a legit raid skill... all these non-raid Im out having a good time skills are basically all for nothing... they are not game makers/breakers... class makers/breakers... in the end... most people that I know want to kill the BIG stuff... so if your gonna hang in that group... you need to bring something to the table... and runaway speed aint it...

I am not saying what the %buffs should be on that skill... but it sure sounds like its headed in the right direction... and does fit the role of what a scout does... they scout...

[Terrell [BT]]

--- OR ---

7c. Target Tracking: OMG, a RAID SKILL! Roughly put, this would be an ability that gives the members of a TS's party (but not the TS himself) a marked bonus to Critical Targeting. A scout's essential job in most military applications... is to spy out the enemy's weaknesses, and then take advantage of them.

This TS-only skill would triple the Critical Targeting skills of any warrior or Progen with this skill, and increase it by a factor of 1.25x for everybody else (effectively giving all non-warriors in the group - TS excepted - the basic level Critical Targeting)

Doesn't grouping with a JW already give a bonus to everyone's percent chance of getting crits (even for the classes without the critical targeting skill)? This would be redundant.

JW's and PWs already get 70% critical targeting just on the basis of their skills, when maxed, before we even count any bonuses on their equipment. Is it even possible to get more than 100% critical targeting? Wouldn't 100% crits mean that every shot that hits is a crit.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Terrell

[Tyran]

JW's and PWs already get 70% critical targeting just on the basis of their skills, when maxed, before we even count any bonuses on their equipment. Is it even possible to get more than 100% critical targeting? Wouldn't 100% crits mean that every shot that hits is a crit.

All depends how it procs.

There is the 70% from the skill and the roughly 29% or so from items.

If the game engine adds the percentages then it would be 99% crit.

But if the skill and item buffs are calculated seperately they would roll twice, first 70% chance and then 29%. This makes about 78.7% of hits critical, and not 99%.

[seekeronos]

Initially, I was thinking in terms of the 3x critical as being a 300% absolute damage - wasn't taking into account any bonuses to the % of shots that get rolled as crits.

Normal crits for classes that have Critical targeting do 2x weapons damage (i.e. your missile hits for 1000 damage normally, but critical for 2000 damage). The TS skill would triple the raw figure and make the crits hit for 3000 damage (adjusting upward for any chemical, plasma, impact, or explosive debuffs)

For classes without Critical Targeting, it would generate a random roll for a 1.5x (150%) critical (the normal 1000 damage would become 1500).

Concerning a calculation for the % of shots fired that are crits, I'd say it would be a modest multiplier for warriors (hereinafter, to include those other classes with Critical Targeting)... and a very modest modifier for those without.

For non-warriors, the chance to roll a crit hit should not exceed the base L1 Critical targeting of a warrior.

[bondct]

well i agree it might be redundant... but it is in the right direction... especially in say a support group that does not get a warrior...

the rest can be sorted out...

[Kyp [LDEV]]

well i agree it might be redundant... but it is in the right direction... especially in say a support group that does not get a warrior...

the rest can be sorted out...

You all want to sway me to change the scout, then know this, the original design document says "Think Millenium Falcon..." and continue, I'm watching. You'll have to consider how it affects the other classes too though, not just how you play your scout.

[Yuritau]

You all want to sway me to change the scout, then know this, the original design document says "Think Millenium Falcon..." and continue, I'm watching. You'll have to consider how it affects the other classes too though, not just how you play your scout.

"Think Millenium Falcon" leads me to think along the lines of: fastest boat in the sky, decent cargo space, some combat ability (but not much really), and tricksy.

My take on all this:

1. Leave equipment skills as they are

2. Make high level engines more attractive (for everyone, not just the TS, just make them attractive enough to be worth getting to L9 on a TS)

3. Since TS is a miner, and will thus be facing FAR more bio mobs than mechanical, replace hacking with something more appropriate/useful (bio-repression if all else fails, but ideally something more interesting)

4. Don't needlessly interfere with how kiting works (ie: mobs tethering)

[tbohner]

My view of the TS is it should have special lines of engines. Engines that boost shield cap, etc.

Of course that is just one component

[bondct]

well remember this then... the mil falcon LED the battle group against the first death star... that ship kicks azz... do you really think that our TS has a chance against the falcon? There is also a stealth component to the falcon... as it sometimes comes outta nowhere and can dissapear just as fast...

[Yuritau]

well remember this then... the mil falcon LED the battle group against the first death star... that ship kicks azz... do you really think that our TS has a chance against the falcon? There is also a stealth component to the falcon... as it sometimes comes outta nowhere and can dissapear just as fast...

Watch the Millenium Falcon scenes again. That thing only had 2 guns. The ship didn't kick ass, it had a good crew. It led the battle group because of who was on board. The stealthy aspect of it comes partly from being fast, and partly because apparently Star Wars ships had almost no sensors. Nothing like the omniscient Star Trek stuff anyways.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Watch the Millenium Falcon scenes again. That thing only had 2 guns. The ship didn't kick ass, it had a good crew. It led the battle group because of who was on board. The stealthy aspect of it comes partly from being fast, and partly because apparently Star Wars ships had almost no sensors. Nothing like the omniscient Star Trek stuff anyways.

3 varying size laser cannons, 1 concussion missile launcher, and 1 ground based cannon (that you saw in Ep IV: A New Hope). The "stealth" of the falcon was part of the pilot, he was simply the best there was in terms of smugglers in the SW universe. The ship itself had nothing to boost it's stealthiness.

[Tyran]

Shame on you Kyp,

How could you not mention it was armed with this:

Now...I'm sure scouts are willing to part with any level of shields if they get the mighty bacca as co-pilot.

Make sure he frequently roars, and that nearby ships hear his cursing and swearing over the intercom without the ability to turn it off.

[bondct]

well then give us a better crew and chewie for our ships... Granted the falcon had nothing to boost stealthiness except the pilot... but it did have the pilot and he could hide that ship in the middle of a crowded room of people looking for him... in computer terms that converts to stealth skill... oh and did you point out that it had 5 (thats five) weapon slots... hmmm...

also was that specifically a ground based weapon or just a weapon doing double duty as a ground based weapon...

now if you wanna give us a 5th weapon slot and speed... well then I think we can just call it a day right there

[Yuritau]

3 varying size laser cannons, 1 concussion missile launcher, and 1 ground based cannon (that you saw in Ep IV: A New Hope). The "stealth" of the falcon was part of the pilot, he was simply the best there was in terms of smugglers in the SW universe. The ship itself had nothing to boost it's stealthiness.

As far as what you see in the movies goes, it had the 2 main guns that they use against the tie fighters, and the ground weapon I forgot about.