Thought Question: Is it possible to build a JE that could beat a PW in PvP?

[seekeronos]

GIVEN the following:

- OL 150 Progen Warrior, kitted out with raid calibre gear

- OL 150 Jenquai Explorer, kitted out with the best equipment for debuffs/reactor buffs/beam turbo, and three raid calibre beams

- Both players are reasonably competent in how to handle their toons in combat

... is it even remotely possible that through a combination of tactics and gear for the JE to have a chance at victory?

Although this scenario assumes 1v1 combat... I'm not closed to the idea of a party of 2-3 high end JEs or a team of JE/JT taking on a single PW if the 1v1 idea is so ridiculously out of the question.

But give a whack at the 1v1 idea first.

Edited April 2, 2010 by -Seeker-

[Aschera[IS]]

Lets see, you chose an offensive char VS a defensive char ...

No chance the JE will ever beat him. JEs and other explorers are the buffing / support classes not the offending ones.

How ever what is far more interesting when you start to speak about same classes / different factions going at each other. In this case a JD has a chance to beat a PW and vice versa

[Terrell [BT]]

Agree with Aschera, no chance whatsoever, at least not with beams. JE can't get close enough to PW to inflict damage, without overwhelming damage coming back. In addition, there are a number of devices a PW could use to see cloaked and Improved Cloaking does not fully counter those devices.

For a JE to have a chance at winning a direct fight with a PW, the JE would have to have a coma powerful enough to blind the PW to the point that the JE can sit on the edge of his (JE's) weapon range, and be outside the range from which the PW could see him to shoot back. Said coma will have to stick on the first try, have adequate range that the JE could get close enough to use it before the PW sees him to open fire, the JE would have to execute such an attack flawlessly, and get lucky on top of that. IOW, so many things would have to fall in the JE's favor that it makes beating a PW with a JE (of similiar level and competance), almost impossible.

JE can't use missile tech, so he can't just equip the 3 best MLs he could use, a L8 Model Z and kite. JT can't use missile tech either, so she can't do it in JE's place. JW only Jenquai that can use Missiles.

[seekeronos]

Agree with Aschera, no chance whatsoever, at least not with beams. JE can't get close enough to PW to inflict damage, without overwhelming damage coming back. In addition, there are a number of devices a PW could use to see cloaked and Improved Cloaking does not fully counter those devices.

For a JE to have a chance at winning a direct fight with a PW, the JE would have to have a coma powerful enough to blind the PW to the point that the JE can sit on the edge of his (JE's) weapon range, and be outside the range from which the PW could see him to shoot back. Said coma will have to stick on the first try, have adequate range that the JE could get close enough to use it before the PW sees him to open fire, the JE would have to execute such an attack flawlessly, and get lucky on top of that. IOW, so many things would have to fall in the JE's favor that it makes beating a PW with a JE (of similiar level and competance), almost impossible.

I'm pretty sure that in a straight fight, the JE would be toast in under 60sec. (42k hull/55-ish K shields?)

But what about warp kiting type tactics, using that summon-related skill to put distance between the JE and her enemy? Then warp some distance (staying within a 15km scan range), then warping back in for another shot?

Shoot & scoot. Though I doubt that with the shield cap and shield regen a PW has, this would be possible either. Let alone getting hit with shield sap.

The JE would have to get the first shot in, and there's almost no guarantee that the JE could get a second cloaked shot off (assuming the PW has anticipated and has a see-cloaked device installed).

[Terrell [BT]]

I'm pretty sure that in a straight fight, the JE would be toast in under 60sec. (42k hull/55-ish K shields?)

But what about warp kiting type tactics, using that summon-related skill to put distance between the JE and her enemy? Then warp some distance (staying within a 15km scan range), then warping back in for another shot?

Shoot & scoot. Though I doubt that with the shield cap and shield regen a PW has, this would be possible either. Let alone getting hit with shield sap.

The JE would have to get the first shot in, and there's almost no guarantee that the JE could get a second cloaked shot off (assuming the PW has anticipated and has a see-cloaked device installed).

44K hull, 45776 cap with a Dragon's Dread Mail Elite VIII.

If the PW has See Cloaked, the JE likely doesn't even get close enough to fire off a first shot, even with Improved Cloaking on the JE.

Problem for JE, is lack of weapon range. Using items from Slayerman's database, even with 2 Distortion Arrays and a GoD, JE will likely still have to get within 4K to shoot. DA has range of 2K, GoD 2.1K, plus GoD gives beam range buff. Distortion Array is most powerful Plasma beam a JE can use in terms of DPS. GoD 2nd. Both Beams are buffed out and only share 1 common buff. With those 2 beams and a Reinforced Solar Sail, the JE should have a sig of 0.1 or 0.0. (those things would be really nice for JE's day to day mining)

PW would likely have, at the very least a Zenshai Nav Computer, to increase his scan range, and see cloaked. If PW can get his scan range up to anything over 5.0K, and keep an item with See Cloaked, the JE likely won't get close enough to use his coma.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Terrell

[garblesoup]

Is the PW in question AFK?

[blattu]

lmao! @last post

brilliant!!!!!

[Lars[IS]]

Well although we will problie never get the chance to test this out, I for one think the JE would have a chance to beat a PW. Now you are saying I am crazy, but at this moment in the game my lvl 125 JE with lvl 6 beams is doing more DPS then my lvl 125 PW with lvl 8 PL's! How is this possible you say, 2 words, Shield Leach! Also, my JE warps at about half a sec and I could warp in, shoot and warp out before the PW could even get a shoot off. I do this all the time and I am right now killing mobs 15 lvl's above my JE's cl. With the combo of beams & Shield leach I am doing about 15k DPS. Now ofcourse this changes once you get to the hull and if the PW had maxed out grave link then it would be hard for on the JE. It would be very interesting to test this out and I would like the chance to play the JE in this type of PVP.

Lars

[Muhir]

Lets see, you chose an offensive char VS a defensive char ...

No chance the JE will ever beat him. JEs and other explorers are the buffing / support classes not the offending ones.

How ever what is far more interesting when you start to speak about same classes / different factions going at each other. In this case a JD has a chance to beat a PW and vice versa

LIES! JD has no chance! hahaha btw welcome back Asch.

And, for the record it isn't shield sap that will do in the JE or JD. Grav link will prevent you from coalking, so ya got one shot and can't get away! Poor JD's in live did a great job of blasting off your shields but when ya hit the 225% HDC and the 84k hull and couldn't recloak.... buuuuh bye

Now, them damned PS and their menace..... I'll find another thread to grumble about that.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Muhir

[Aschera[IS]]

Thanks for the "welcome back" but i was never gone ....

I had soem PVP matches in live with my maxed out PW vs a maxed out, well equipped and well played JD.

If he got the first shot my PW was toast. If however somethign went wrong in his "chain" of attack he was blown out of the sky within seconds

[Lars[IS]]

I have 2 questions about PW's grav link! 1. how long does it take to go thru the start up cycle, & 2. what is it's range?

The reason I am asking is that with a JE with max Nav skill & a Laz you can warp in, shot and warp out in less then 2 seconds. In 3 sec I can be 10k away, so if Grav link takes longer then 2 sec to activate and has a range of less then 10k, anyone who is good with a JE can work around Grav link.

[Skeletor]

What about a JE having a 7.7k Beam range (Prototype Beams - Extended beam Range + HOTDO reactor) and used kiting method.

As far as i know the Progen can't get better than 6.7k Range.

Just something to think about, I did hear of a JE beating a PW in the arena on Pegasus but i don't think the PW was very capable

[Aschera[IS]]

ouch .. he should have gotten his PW license revoked ... Next time his gene maps should be sorted out and become a PT or PS ...

[Terrell [BT]]

ouch .. he should have gotten his PW license revoked ... Next time his gene maps should be sorted out and become a PT or PS ...

I would think that a Sentinel would be an even tougher opponent for a Jenquai, than a PW, simply because a PE has a base scan range of 5.0, the Scan skill, and the Menace skill. You just can't sneak up on a PE unless he's not paying attention.

[siadrinkswater]

Just something to think about, I did hear of a JE beating a PW in the arena on Pegasus but i don't think the PW was very capable

yup it already happened on Pegasus

[Gobblu]

When most of the rest of my guild (the federation guild) started to leave after sunset announce, they were giving those of us who were left their elite gear. I was one of the few left, and had a very nice setup (don't remember what anymore), but I beat an ol 150 pw with my je in the arena. I think the pw chose the wrong reactor, because I think he ran out of cap before I did. I could warp in, hit him and warp back out (rinse, repeat). He only hit me twice, but it almost killed me. I had no shields, and 5 hull left, but he got incapped before me. I could solo oni quite well at that time, and had been practicing on them. If the oni got their "scream" off before I could warp away, I was toast, but if I got into warp, they were toast. I don't know if my max cloak was higher than the pw's scan, but a couple of times I snuck up behind him, fired and warped away before he could turn around. A short warp to the other side, and sneak back into max beam range, cloak and crawl. I won a million credit bet on the fight.

So, Yes, if the pw doesn't have the right mix, and the je does, it's possible if the je knows the correct tactics. I don't remember the pw's name anymore, but he wasn't happy about it. He wanted a rematch, but my game account went inactive and I couldn't log back in.

I do remember that fire lotus was the one building weapons for our guild. Funny how some names stick with you.

And yes, Gobblu was my je's name on Pegasus.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Gobblu

[bondct]

while i realize that many pw's spend their entire lifetime in their ships (cuz the have such big egos and their ships are built around them and there is no way for them to exit... ever)...

I think it is possible for a je to easily beat a pw under the right conditions... that being that the je specializes in pvp and the pw specializes in pve... under those conditions a je could easily beat the pw...

[Gobblu]

The way I've seen a lot of pw played, is sort of like a boxer. Up in your face, pounding on you till you go down. Je fighting style is more like gorilla warfare/sniper, hide hit and move (sort of like beating mike tyson on the old nintendo video game). It has a lot to do with tactics and luck (who gets the first hit in).

[garblesoup]

Je fighting style is more like gorilla warfare

*snicker*

Are they in the mist?

[seekeronos]

gorilla warfare

<tongue status="out of cheek" />

Can't speak for gorillas, but I know chimpanzees - which are on the average several hundred pounds lighter than a gorilla - can still rip apart the best human fighter when they go ape.

Chimps are supposedly 8x stronger than a human, pound for pound... so I'd hate to think about what a gorilla could do

<tongue status="out of cheek" />

Edited April 5, 2010 by -Seeker-

[irrelevant]

I propose that if it IS possible, it be made impossible, simply because a PW is the most warrior of the warrior classes and JE is the most explorer of the explorer classes. They only situation where a JE should beat PW is if JE is more skilled/better informed about gear, in which case it should be an easy win for anybody.

And I agree about the PS comment; the see cloak + 11-12 k scan range makes it impossible for most jenquai to beat a competent PS as well. Now this is all one on one.

I propose this match instead:

A group of JD/JE/JS versus a group of PW/PS/PP, equally skilled, and assuming they have access to all the best gear. Might be more interest . and lets say that compulsory contemplation is working as well, though i think its a decent match up even without.

[Terrell [BT]]

I propose that if it IS possible, it be made impossible, simply because a PW is the most warrior of the warrior classes and JE is the most explorer of the explorer classes. They only situation where a JE should beat PW is if JE is more skilled/better informed about gear, in which case it should be an easy win for anybody.

And I agree about the PS comment; the see cloak + 11-12 k scan range makes it impossible for most jenquai to beat a competent PS as well. Now this is all one on one.

I propose this match instead:

A group of JD/JE/JS versus a group of PW/PS/PP, equally skilled, and assuming they have access to all the best gear. Might be more interest . and lets say that compulsory contemplation is working as well, though i think its a decent match up even without.

Level 5 Scan description: Increases scan range by 2000 units, increases chance that a cloaked object may be detected, when a cloaked object is detected, all group members can see it.

This essentially means that with the PE in the group, everyone else can see cloaked whenever the PE sees cloaked. Making it nearly impossible that any beam using Jenquai get off a shot. Even Projectiles are ruled out, with the PE in group because JE/JT PL range with a Hodo is only about 7K. Don't know how much range a JW can get with missiles and a Model Z, but I doubt it's enough to deal with the Sentinel.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Terrell

[irrelevant]

Level 5 Scan description: Increases scan range by 2000 units, increases chance that a cloaked object may be detected, when a cloaked object is detected, all group members can see it.

This essentially means that with the PE in the group, everyone else can see cloaked whenever the PE sees cloaked. Making it nearly impossible that any beam using Jenquai get off a shot. Even Projectiles are ruled out, with the PE in group because JE/JT PL range with a Hodo is only about 7K. Don't know how much range a JW can get with missiles and a Model Z, but I doubt it's enough to deal with the Sentinel.

I'm thinking more along the lines of heavy buffing/debuffing and divide & conquer strategies for the jenquai group. Remember that across the 3 classes, you have a scan BOOST, reactor transfers, some of the best debuffing devices, healing & PSI shield, summon/fold space *sets, reactor/shield draining skill that restore group reactor. Cloaking is only needed for the crit strike bonus in the kind of play I'm envisioning. The toughest thing here is not the see cloak(other than the high DPS)is menace(namely terrify).I think the jenquai group stands a good chance here.

* Short of the terrify level, this set means that the progen disabling skills (gravlink and menace) can be managed fairly well by the jenquai group.

Edited April 5, 2010 by irrelevant

[seekeronos]

Is Menace a skill that is Psionic based (that is, a mob with a very high base psionic resistance would have a chance of resisting Menace) ?

[Terrell [BT]]

I'm thinking more along the lines of heavy buffing/debuffing and divide & conquer strategies for the jenquai group. Remember that across the 3 classes, you have a scan BOOST, reactor transfers, some of the best debuffing devices, healing & PSI shield, summon/fold space *sets, reactor/shield draining skill that restore group reactor. Cloaking is only needed for the crit strike bonus in the kind of play I'm envisioning. The toughest thing here is not the see cloak(other than the high DPS)is menace(namely terrify).I think the jenquai group stands a good chance here.

* Short of the terrify level, this set means that the progen disabling skills (gravlink and menace) can be managed fairly well by the jenquai group.

The only way I can see the Jenquai group pulling this off, is if the JE has a Laz 9, Max Navigate, for nearly instant warp engage cooldown times, and can manage to warp in, Coma the PE, and warp out, while living to tell about it. If the JE cannot pull that off, successfully, then the PE will lead the Progen to hunt down the Jenquai. (JE can power up the warp engines to leave, faster than the JW can summon him. Summon Friend at least as of ST3 can be used on a warping group member). If a L9 Coma will stick on the PE, and get his Scan range down to less than 5.0 that would open up the use of the JW and JT's coma devices on the other 2 Progen. JW energy Leech would also need to hit to drain the Progen's reactors. IMO the PE, and getting his scanners blinded, is the essential first step to any Jenquai tactics for the Jenquai to win this fight.