PW Skill: Self Destruct

[seekeronos]

The purpose of this poll is to ask you, the PW player, what you would like to have SD (Self Destruct) skill act.

It does not take much into account as to how this skill ran in live, since there is something of a muddy consensus on exactly what it did, and at what point in the Live game's life-cycle (nerf here, re-balancing there, etc.)

This is purely to get opinions as to how to make the skill best work in EMU, allowing for some creative license in light of a perfect record of what the skill did.

EDIT: For the last question, please note that by default there would be a cool-down timer (5 or 10 minutes) to prevent ability spamming, and that for the "automatic revive" options, there would still be a button for the player to use if she wanted to revive BEFORE the 60sec revive timer lapsed.

[Azasha]

For the last option I selected custom choice.

I believe the right balance for after SD is activated is:

SD should not incapacitate the player, but IMMEDIATELY revive the PW at the same hull the PW had before hitting SD, with 0% reactor & shields, with NO immunity to nearby aggro (the RISK factor!)

I believe this is the way it used to work in live but I am unsure as I rarely if ever used the skill. But I believe the actual description is that it detonates reactor and shield for x amount of damage per level.

(Edit) Sorry I just re-read my post and realized that it left something open to interpretation. The PW who hits SD should be immediately revived (ie: able to be attacked) however they should be immobilized (not be able to move, shoot or activate skills) for X amount of time based on skill level of SD.

For example:

Skill Level 1 - Immobilized for 15 seconds

Skill Level 2 - Immobilized for 20 seconds

Skill Level 3 - Immobilized for 25 seconds

Skill Level 4 - Immobilized for 30 seconds

Skill Level 5 - Immobilized for 35 seconds

The reasoning behind increasing the time per skill level when usually skills would decrease in "cool down time" based on the higher level is that at higher levels you would expect the PW to have a larger hull and therefore live longer if there is a mob left behind removing the risk factor.

(end edit)

(edit) Edited times to less however, upon even more thought a straight 20 seconds of immobility which is not changed for the level should work in theory if the mobs that are being encountered are sizable to the PW's level. (end edit)

[Grumpy]

My personal opinion is that SD should deal massive damage, or fatal, to any targets attacking the PW at the time, others in the area are unaffected. If the affected targets get dead, lock the loot rights to the hulks to the one who hit the SD button, and only allow tow, or JS after hulks have gone poof.

Should be intended as a last resort to go out in a blaze of glory and destroy one's enemies!

Just my two cents.

[Tyran]

Seeker, please don't make so many options in a poll...it is torture to read that...

My only take on this skill is to remove it entirely from the game as turning it into a feasible skill is as-good-as impossible. This is also why it was completely useless in live except for "shits 'n giggles".

Despite this I'm sure it would be present in the emulator for novelty value...again.

[Bluebull]

How about the way it was intended to work..

1)an AOE unresistable decent damage /damage increases with skill/lv of player

2)does not kill/incap player rather disables shield/reactor leaving hull un protected (here is where Hull damage control comes in)

3)the effect disbales the shields/reactor for 30 second

4)after which the shield/reactor come back up

[GenghisBob]

The important part, as I see it, is that the PW in not killed by SD. That means he can not ask for a tow. If he can't ask for a tow they can get rid of the auto-registration when docking.

[irrelevant]

I think SD should be scrapped altogether and replaced with another skill.

The following idea is completely a ripoff of the "Final Hour" skill on the kol battleship from Sins of a Solar Empire

hmm, don't know what to call it other than Final Hour

Basically, the PW overcharges EVERYTHING(or, the last level overcharges everything, earlier levels building up to it) at the cost of losing structure and hull.

So at level 7 activation, weapons, shields, devices, engine, reactor operate at something like 150% stats (so, a 200% quality item works as if it was 300% quality)

ALL equipment takes structural damage through the duration of the skill (but the structural loss detriments to stats don't kick in until the skill wears off, unless the equipment reaches 0% in which case it becomes inactive)

Equipment CANNOT be repaired while the skill is active or for 5 minutes or so afterwards. Equipment IS swappable, but the warrior cannot trade with anyone during this time (to prevent chain usage of the skill, limited by hold space)

Hull takes damage at a constant rate, but can be repaired.

Skill wears off after a certain time, OR after all equipment reaches 0%, OR after hull reaches a critical level.The skill cannot be manually deactivated (its still a "self-destruct" style skill) and that implies all other skills are unusable when this is active.

There is also a higher-than-normal chance of losing quality on equipment damaged by activation of this skill. Alternatively, there is a constant penalty to quality of 1-2% every time the skill is activated.

Edited March 8, 2010 by irrelevant

[Floss]

This idea is completely a ripoff of the "Final Hour" skill on the kol battleship from Sins of a Solar Empire

hmm, don't know what to call it other than Final Hour

Except EnB beat sins to market by umm... 6 years.

I have a problem with the description of the talent, "Self Destruct", and the concept that your ship doesn't blow up. It should incap your ship if it is actually "Self Destruct".

Naming it something else would be fine if it is purely an energy dump (shields/reactor), but anything that sugests you destruct or jettison a core is dumb unless that is precisely what you are doing, in which case you need a JS or a new reactor.

Give it 50% dmg to trade goods and that stops trade run progen popping, that makes sense and brings it inline with wormhole and lvl 7 summon.

If you don't want it to incap a ship, it really needs a new name or else it just doesn't make sense. Call it "Last Resort" or something, full dump for high damage, immobilized for 60 seconds but still vulnerable to damage, or else you have just created "Invincible".

Gear damage is a terrible idea and will result on no one putting a point into it. No one voluntarily blows up their gear, especially at end-game.

[irrelevant]

Except EnB beat sins to market by umm... 6 years.

Yes, I know.. your point? I was saying that the idea I described was the ripoff... not sure what you mean hehe.

Gear damage is a terrible idea and will result on no one putting a point into it. No one voluntarily blows up their gear, especially at end-game.

True , I guess, but what if the bonuses are such that the PW that already has uber end-game gear become equivalent to an epic mob (real epic mob, not current ) Some might consider it worthwhile blowing up gear for gaining such ability temporarily(should be a short duration)

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

I've already voiced many of these comments over the past year.

The problem with SD is in live it was more like Damp Squib. But you didn't die also.

The problem here will be, to make it more powerful without it being spammed. It is with this in mind that my suggestion is you loose everything in your cargo hold as SD should be a point of last resort. When you die, the XP debt is compared to the CL of the mobs in the area. If you SD vs more powerful enemies, then you went out like a true warrior (grunt) and should be commended. No XP debt. If the mobs were inferior (Jenquai?) then you get XP debt for each CL inferior to you.

The suggestion I have is that the AOE damage also disingages all target locks to anyone within the area, and interrupts any skill use currently being activates, friend or foe. This coupled with absolute damage would make SD a 'first strike' option, but with great loss to the cargo contents.

Again, this skill either could be repeatidly done with little damage (live) or use as point of last reward to assist your team retreating / first strike option to disable skills. I know what one my warrior 'Growlz' would like. She's already staking up trade good explosives in her hold!

[pull4rise]

well Sd should be like in live unresistable AoE but it only has a small range so its unlikely it will be used as an AoE when used u will 100% hull no shields and no reactor for about 10-20 sec im not sure how long it took in live and after that time both reactor and shield should recharge.

[pull4rise]

i forgot to add this in live my pw was maxed out using the lvl8 scimitar beam i think which adds to SD it did about 45-46k dmg on all...i basicly used this as a 1st hit on scooter and the cooldown on it was very high like 30min or so,so u could only use it once on a boss.

[pull4rise]

another thing is in live sd was actually usefull i saved me plenty of times in raids for having many aggro after me using sd they saw me as dead like a ps using power down.

[Tyran]

Let's face it an activatable self destruct is silly and as it stands its actually a high damage and expensive + risky version of shield inversion...

Also any skill that involved risk taking and losing shields is going to be impopular for late game players who would prefer to stay alive and play tactical rather than go for martyrdom (to keep equipment quality).

This is why self destruct didnt work during live, and will definitely not work here.

So Byakhee, please realize that the average late game player is not interesting in investing skillpoints into a "last resort" skill.

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

Hey, i've got no say in how this skill is developed.

I just think that if it does no damage its just an empty skill! I didn't mean to say loosing shields but suggested certain trade goods may amplify the effect. Look at the Trade good Explosives. Now if you chose to carry units of those in the cargo, these are taking up valuable cargo slots instead of ammunition, but if Explosives could amplify the SD when you activated it, loosing all the Explosives in the cargo while doing it (ensuring that a second SD with no explosives would be much worse, and requiring PW to head and grab more explosives if they wanted to have a decent explosion) then that would be quite effective.

By 'loosing everything' I meant you could loose all your cargo. However, that woudn't in hindsight be that popular. Now, if you purposely carried Trade goods explosives in order to augament the firs SD you did, that could be effective, as they would otherwise be wasting valuable cargo space.

Then you could have the skill being applied as a multiplier of the number of explosives you have in the hold, something like (1+ explosives ##) * Skill. So you'd always do base skill damage when you had got rid of all the explosives in your initial blast.

What would temper this skill then, and it woudn't matter if people got incapacitated and remained at the place, is in order to do something that explosive again, the PW would have to head off and go and buy explosives. This is what will make the skill less used, the resupply of explosives and the restricted space in the cargo hold from carrying these explosives.

This should be a ideal compromise, if you want a big explosion your gonna have to forfit cargo space to explosives rigged to help you self destruct, otherwise it will probably only make them madder!

## Explosives wouldn't contribute 1 / unit of explosives because thats just too stupid. 0.15 / unit may be more reasomble (0.25?? too much)?

[00:53 AM very tired]

[pull4rise]

i rather see it back the way it was in live....since then u still could carry ur pb/foc or poc/cve/skullshield and other buffers u need and use it like i used to do in live without having those loose % on my equips in cargo which wasnt the case in live.i do know alot of ppl said it was a crappy skill since most didnt even know how to use it..sd saved me alot of times in live from dieing being chased by quite some aggro mobs.only in rare occasions 1 of the monsters killed me anyway...but most of the time after i used it they leaved me alone like i was no risk for them anymore.

[GenghisBob]

Hey, i've got no say in how this skill is developed.

I just think that if it does no damage its just an empty skill! I didn't mean to say loosing shields but suggested certain trade goods may amplify the effect. Look at the Trade good Explosives. Now if you chose to carry units of those in the cargo, these are taking up valuable cargo slots instead of ammunition, but if Explosives could amplify the SD when you activated it, loosing all the Explosives in the cargo while doing it (ensuring that a second SD with no explosives would be much worse, and requiring PW to head and grab more explosives if they wanted to have a decent explosion) then that would be quite effective.

By 'loosing everything' I meant you could loose all your cargo. However, that woudn't in hindsight be that popular. Now, if you purposely carried Trade goods explosives in order to augament the firs SD you did, that could be effective, as they would otherwise be wasting valuable cargo space.

Then you could have the skill being applied as a multiplier of the number of explosives you have in the hold, something like (1+ explosives ##) * Skill. So you'd always do base skill damage when you had got rid of all the explosives in your initial blast.

What would temper this skill then, and it woudn't matter if people got incapacitated and remained at the place, is in order to do something that explosive again, the PW would have to head off and go and buy explosives. This is what will make the skill less used, the resupply of explosives and the restricted space in the cargo hold from carrying these explosives.

This should be a ideal compromise, if you want a big explosion your gonna have to forfit cargo space to explosives rigged to help you self destruct, otherwise it will probably only make them madder!

## Explosives wouldn't contribute 1 / unit of explosives because thats just too stupid. 0.15 / unit may be more reasomble (0.25?? too much)?

[00:53 AM very tired]

[/q To do more damage we put exp points into the skill just like everyone else. They don't have to carry special cargo to get their skills to work, why would a PW have to waste his very limited cargo space just to get a skill to work the way it should?

I don't think a PW goes out hunting with the idea that he is going to get into a situation where he has to use Self Destruct. That is a last resort. He would have a hold full of ammo. Wouldn't that make a big explosion?

[Azasha]

Not trying to start a war here but honestly I think the skill was fine in Live. People who spent the nanosecond of brain power found ways to make it quite useful.

(Edit) I thought I might add I had a 150+ PS, 2 x 150+ PW, 150+ JE, 2 x 150+ TT, and a 100 or so TE and some various baby chars at the time of Sunset. Due to Sunset announcement I had 2 people who gave me their multiple accounts and I already had 2 accounts of my own so I tinkered with a lot of the classes. Didn't want anyone asking why I'm posting in a PW skill thread without having one. (end edit)

In reading a lot of these threads I feel a little bit like I did back in Live. People complain this people complain that I just want to see it that way it was when they pulled the plug on the servers to be honest. When I first started playing Earth and Beyond as a witty bitty Progen Sentinel I heard blasts of "PS's SUCK" "PS's are the most useless thing in this game" "a PS has absolutely no useful skill and can't fight either". Hmmm... well used properly with the brain in the on position I found that my PS maxed out did a lot of things people said it couldn't and even things people said other classes couldn't. Go figure. I found a use for every single skill. Go Figure.

People should probably think more, complain less, and think of all the outcomes of changing things before they just up and pop off what they think they want.

My biggest complaint? I want to see ENB Emulator an exact replica of the state of ENB right before sunset. Will it happen? Probably not. But I can hope.

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

[/q To do more damage we put exp points into the skill just like everyone else. They don't have to carry special cargo to get their skills to work, why would a PW have to waste his very limited cargo space just to get a skill to work the way it should?

I don't think a PW goes out hunting with the idea that he is going to get into a situation where he has to use Self Destruct. That is a last resort. He would have a hold full of ammo. Wouldn't that make a big explosion?

Because ammnuition could be easily resupplied in space by an alt, and then it'd have to be coded that only a certain amount / stack of a certain level would work (because level 1 wouldn't give enough damage). Easier to specify 1 good that works. Thinking how to do it with what is there at the moment.

Again, its only an opinion in the matter. SD was a joke skill. At least PowerDown for the Sentinel was useful, once activated NO MOB could SEE you and you could go AFK for ages.

Its just an opinion, although when I can start to create missions based on skill level I will put in a tree that requires maximum skill in these under-used skills.

[seekeronos]

Because ammnuition could be easily resupplied in space by an alt, and then it'd have to be coded that only a certain amount / stack of a certain level would work (because level 1 wouldn't give enough damage). Easier to specify 1 good that works. Thinking how to do it with what is there at the moment.

Again, its only an opinion in the matter. SD was a joke skill. At least PowerDown for the Sentinel was useful, once activated NO MOB could SEE you and you could go AFK for ages.

Its just an opinion, although when I can start to create missions based on skill level I will put in a tree that requires maximum skill in these under-used skills.

Honestly, I think Byakhee's idea totally rocks.

"Explosive" Trade Goods could also be made in the range of Level 6 to Level 9, with an geometric progression of explosive power, and possibly be player-made with a combination of nasty radioactive ores (got to put a use to all that curium and neutronium littering up the mining belts).

Annnnnd.... not only should the top level of SD have a maximum mega explosion... but in parallel to group cloak for JEs, it should send out a "detonation wave" to all grouped members. Group death, or a "zenmetsu"... like Samson taking out the Philistine's temple with a packed audience inside.

That is, in a raid scenario where you *know* your group is going to wipe... the PW hits his top-level SD skill (called "Detonation Wave" for fun's sake here) and all six of you go KABBOOOOOOM!!! with massive, unresistable AOE damage dealt as a factor against sum of all of your overall levels, PLUS whatever explosives you are packing along for the ride.

All grouped players would have to "agree to the suicide pact" by responding to a approve/reject dialog (re-use the JE's WH dialog code) to be party to the big explosion...

So, for a group of six max-level players, that's ((150 * 6) * 300) + (number of cargo slots carrying "explosive trade goods") = a lot of dead fish nearby.

Then have a team of JD's ready to yank them out of harm's way for hull patch/regen/etc.

[Tyran]

At least PowerDown for the Sentinel was useful, once activated NO MOB could SEE you and you could go AFK for ages.

Or those without powerdown could click on nearest gate and press q

The idea of filling your hold with explosives to do a kamikaze is funny but nothing more than that. It's ofcourse a bit silly that you need to have an alt nearby to carry the ammo or explosives. Because, if you are farming and you are near death you need to somehow switch your ammo for explosives on your alt before you die...

There is zero tactical potential and thus no reason to upgrade it. If you were to make a mission that requires SD in order to obtain a very useful item that would be a shame, as people would upgrade self destruct for the item, not the skill.

Problem with finding a replacement skill for self destruct would be that the PW is already complete enough without it

[seekeronos]

If we simply had to give up SD for a more useful skill...

...I would like to see a skill tree that'd be useful for a tank; equipment already does the heavy work here, but some self-cast buffs wouldn't hurt either.

This is in line with building a specific resistance-tank, similar to the WoW flame tank mentioned somewhere else on these boards, or like the FFXI Bards with their line of "Carol" or VIT+/DEF+ songs in certain Avatar or god/wyrm fights.

Let's call this experimental skill tree "Praetorian Brace" and make it acquirable from the OL100 hull upgrade, since it is the very beginning of the endgame range:

Praetorian Brace - (insert very long, complicated Byakhee quest to unlock the skill)

L1 - Minimum OL 100: "Praetorian Brace" - increases base Impact Resistance by 25% but decreases other resists by 10% (stacks with any devices or other buffs for Impact Resist) "Your Hull is hardened against impact attacks, but your ship is weakened slightly to other forms of damage".

L2 - Minimum OL 115: "Praetorian Vigor" - increases base Chemical Resistance by 25% but decreases other resists by 10% (stacks with any devices or other buffs for Chemical Resist) "Your Hull is coated with an anti-chemical gel, but your ship is weakened slightly to other forms of damage".

L3 - Minimum OL 125: "Praetorian Fortitude" - increases base Plasma Resistance by 25% but decreases other resists by 10% (stacks with any devices or other buffs for Plasma Resist) "Your Shield changes phase to resist plasma attacks, but your ship is weakened slightly to other forms of damage".

L4 - Minimum OL 135: "Praetorian Resilience" - increases base EMP resistance by 25% but decreases other resists by 10% (stacks with any devices or other buffs for Plasma Resist) "Your tactical computer adjusts to resist EMP attacks, but your ship is weakened slightly to other forms of damage".

L5 - Minimum OL 145: "Praetorian Will" - increases base Psionic resistance by 25% (stacks with any devices or other buffs for Plasma Resist) "Your shield changes phase to deflect Psionic energy".

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

Thing is with new skills the code is so compact that you would also have to sacrifice another Progen Warrior skill in order to implement it (or so i'm told).

SD: Incapacitates Ship, Causes damage AOE.

But could it be:

Gravatic Signature: Focusing the reactor energy of your vessel, you incapacitate your ship to send a gravatic shear that increases the signature of your target. If successful the target signature is raised for 60 seconds and you are incapacitated for 60 seconds. If insuccesful you are incapacitated.

L1: +500 Signature to < Enemy Mob >

L2: +1000 Signature to < Enemy Mob >

L3: +2000 Signature to < Enemy Mob >

L4: +500 Signature to < Target Player > or + 4000 Signature to < Enemy Mob >

L5: +1000 Signature to < Target Player > or + 8000 Signature to < Enemy Mob >

- Used to keep track of enemies, mobs or other players

- For duration of debuff you cannot move or be targetted, your shields are at 0 and so is your reactor.

- Talk about a 'fun skill'. Come here, low signature players and try and pop that rock again..

[Grumpy]

Thinking like a lot of other things around here, too much thought

Self Destruct skill.

level 1 blows up one attacking target and self

level 2 blows up two attacking targets and self

level 3 blows up three attacking targets and self

See a trend?

From what I remember the lore of the game a PW would go out with a big bang if overpowered by enemies. Hell, wasn't that the basis for reclaimers and the call forward skill?

[syphon2020]

I agree Self destruct should have like a 15 minute timer on it to keep it from being exploited like we know everyone likes to do in games like this. Max Self destruct should destroy everything within say 10k with the exception of boss mobs. The 15 minute timer would keep them from exploiting it with someone that can rez them and it should also carry a debt penalty of say half of what it would have been if you would have died under natural fire. When you hit SD it takes 5 secs or so to power up everything to critical mass and then boom everything dies. The PW then has the normal options to tow or wait for a rez. Also it could be added that the PW has to be taking Hull damage before he even has the option to self destruct.