Vegetarians

[StarSeekerVDS]

Okay, I'll bite...

"I like meat" is a morally neutral statement. It's a statement of our biology as (non-obligate) omnivores. It is not a matter of personal choice any more than "I find eggplant disgusting" and I obviously have no opinion on that.

"I am indifferent to the suffering of animals" is not a morally neutral statement, and is unnecessary.

I suppose part of the problem comes from the fact that "thou shalt not eat meat" is not on the list of "wrong things" a typical moral absolutist (as most people are) carries, so it can't be wrong in their eyes... *shrug* I consider morality to be a question of what causes good or harm to other living beings, be they human or animal or plant. Yes, I consider human well-being to be much more heavily weighted, but that doesn't mean other living things are irrelevant. I find that attitude quite disturbing.

"I like eating dead babies" is similarly a morally neutral statement. The only difference is that people are (hopefully) unable to summon the moral divorce between that statement and the moral statement "killing babies for food is wrong". I suggest that there should never BE a moral divorce between our actions and the consequences thereof. I might disagree with the statement "animal suffering is insufficient to be a concern", but at least it is rational and responsible compared to "I don't give a s***" or "I like meat and that's all that matters" which is a very arrogant "me me me" statement. It's not all about you.

*snickers at Tyran* You missed a few...

[akow]

"I like eating dead babies" is similarly a morally neutral statement. The only difference is that people are (hopefully) unable to summon the moral divorce between that statement and the moral statement "killing babies for food is wrong". I suggest that there should never BE a moral divorce between our actions and the consequences thereof. I might disagree with the statement "animal suffering is insufficient to be a concern", but at least it is rational and responsible compared to "I don't give a s***" or "I like meat and that's all that matters" which is a very arrogant "me me me" statement. It's not all about you.

*snickers at Tyran* You missed a few...

to be honest about it , theres nothing wrong with eating meat . if god didnt want us to eat meat , why did he make all those animals so tasty ;p jk jk

just look at like this , everyone wants to be right and no one really ever wants to say there wrong . why people can't agree on most things they belive in , there no middle ground on it :/

far as the above goes , animals suffer everyday in the wild when another animal kills another animal to eat him . why are humans different here . Most of us will never kill one , but we will pay someone else to kill and chop it up for us "IE walmart,publix etc " . some of the strongest animals in the world eat meat , and its in there dna to do so . after 1000's of years of humans eating meat , it has become apart of us and we pass this on to our kids"or i will when i have some ;p"

food for thought here... what if we weren't at the top of the food chain anymore , what would humans do ?

scifi thought here , saw this on scifi channel one night some time ago, old blackand white show.. twight zone??? or outerlimets "sorry one of those" Aliens came to earth , preaching and got humans to get on there ship to go to there planet , but right before one of the ships took off , they found out the book these aliens carried with them, was a cook book on how to cook humans ;p , so just think if aliens ever show up carring a book , you just be be dinner ;p lol

[Floss]

Meat is a delicious source of protein and tastiness. I prefer the inefficiencies of agriculture in comparison to going out after work with a bow or a rifle to try and find dinner, especially in suburbia.

Eventually inefficiencies will sort themselves out if there is profit to be made from process improvement, economics 101, so I'm not going to stop eating meat anytime soon as that would stymie innovation.

Growing vegetables in Canada in the winter is also a challenge. Would prefer to not live on pickled (insert food here) for 8 months of the year. Not sure the neighbors would appreciate a chicken coup in the backyard either.

[garblesoup]

I have never understood how anyone can even have an opinion about what other people eat. And more importantly how people can think that there is a right and wrong.

//Wex

+1

[FeddEx]

a little fact you might know about the human teeth , they are made for eating vegies and fruits ..not meat . Look at all types animals that eat meat , they have sharpe teeth and look at animals that eat fruits,and other plant..they have flat teeth . Humans were meant to eat plants"vegies and fruits"..not meats,fish etc..

I'm sorry, but this is just absolutely unfounded assumption. We are and have always been classified as omnivores, and not just our teeth reflect that, but also our digestive system.

Yes, we have molars which are suited for chewing, but we have nowhere NEAR the capability to eat just plants. We did, however, evolve to have smaller teeth, I do believe in part because we adapted to using our brains so we could prepare food so that we didn't need them to be huge and strong anymore.

a nice comparison:

http://www.detectingdesign.com/images/EarlyMan/Chimp%20afarensis%20human%20teeth.jpg

Note that the chimp teeth are much larger and stronger and have much larger canines. This is to a large degree due to the fact that they live much harder lives and use them as much as tools as weapons, and while chimps too eat a lot of plants, their diet does include meat in some form or another (often insects - note that 'meat' is relative here, we're talking primarily eating readily available proteins), but some are known to actively hunt smaller mammals. Their molars, similar to Gorillas (see below) are also much more prominently developed, as are their jaw muscles, to facilitate the grinding of plant material.

Now, what people forget about is that teeth only indicate diet, but don't define it. Primarily, you need to look at them as tools. In this respect, our tools are quite ill suited for the job of eating anything really tough these days.

indication: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20417/20417-h/images/image264a.jpg

Look at the huge space behind the eyes with the Gorilla skull - that's where the muscles are for the equally huge jaw and wide, flat molars. This animal is built to be able to chew up all those strong plant fibers so that their equally long digestive tract can get most of the nutrients out.

We don't have that. We don't just lack the teeth for it, but we also don't have the digestive tract.

Encyclopedia Britannica (Primates article):

Broadly, however, certain overall dietary preferences are discernible. (...) The apes (other than the mountain gorilla) are substantially fruit eaters.

(...)

Generally speaking, primates are omnivorous, as the physiology of their digestive system attests. Relatively few examples of dietary specialization are to be found. The so-called leaf-eating monkeys, a sobriquet that embraces the whole of the subfamily Colobinae, including colobus monkeys and langurs, are by no means exclusively leaf eaters and according to season include flowers, fruit, and (in some cases) seeds in their diet.

And that's why there's the food groups thing they keep recommending us - we are a species that can eat almost anything, but our digestive tract is not specialized in a way so we can claim to be herbivores. Case in point: the human intestines are generally about 6 to 8.5 meters (you see some comments on 10x body length, remember, body length is just neck to your groin). In specialized herbivores, you can see lengths of 20x or more, as well as other adaptations such as specific enzymes and bacteria that break down certain food sources.

So.. scientific support? Not a chance.

Now, there IS the question of a moral issue. I tend to agree on this more, as the way the bio industry has been working is a terrible thing, and I won't really mind if meat gets 2x as expensive because we stopped abusing animals in the way we have. Will that stop me from eating meat, however? Not likely.

[bondct]

lol this is still going on... seriously... arent all you self-proclaimed vegetarians being just a bit pretentious here... I mean why say anything at all... I dont go around bragging that I am a meatatarian or a coffeatarian... or a jerkatarian

i only know 2 vegitarians that are legit... I didnt even know they were vegitars till I went by there house and one look at there kitchen and you could tell... they actually cook... most vegies that I know eat out of their freezer and all there food oddly enough is designed to look like meat...

one of my friends brags about his vegie burger deluxe... vegie burger which looks like a hamburger on a roll with soy milk cheese and soy bacon... lmao... the only question I had was if the fries and onion rings were soy too... and then he tried to trick me with a soy chicken pattie... it looked like a giant flat round chicken nugget... and I was like sry but I wouldnt even let my kids eat those frozen ground up leftover chicken part nuggets if it were real chicken...

but to get back to that extra long intestinal tract... I think if I could have the long intestines I would go vegan all the way... correct me if I am wrong... but the longer your intestines are... the more alcohol you could drink before dying of alcohol posioning? sounds like the ticket to me

[Guest Guest]

If the discussion doesn't interest you, why respond to it?

I just assumed we were having a reasonable discussion, based on the fact that several people had intelligent and interesting replies to the thread. *shrugs*

[Klyde]

This whole debate is a moot point for me, I eat both. I guess I'm a vegemeatarian.

[akow]

I'm sorry, but this is just absolutely unfounded assumption. We are and have always been classified as omnivores, and not just our teeth reflect that, but also our digestive system.

sorry i got my info from tlc and dsc on cable . from what i got , early man/caveman/apeman w/e ate plants and such from what i got , and over the years"1000's" humans started to other animals... theres more to it , but just what i got from watching tv late at night ...

lord knows most tv shows suxs , so its either tlc or wwe and watch men beat each other up in tight shorts... ;p lol

[Guest charlle]

I had a friend who's wife was extreme in her vegan thinking.She keept going on about how her newborn daughter would never eat protien and that it was important that my newborn son must never eat protien.I told her that I would make sure that my son had plenty of protien because it is very important to growth and brain devolpement.I also told her that to depeive a child of protien for a misguided and personal belief was child abuse. Never saw her again.Still shoot pool with her husbund though.

[Mattsacre]

OK about Matt's 4 cents time (hey inflation baby,,2 cents don't do it anymore)a wise man once said "all things in moderation" I think the scientific evidence is pretty well in on htis...it's NOT good to eat lots of meat..and guess what? it's not good to eat NO meat, a vegetarian does not a vegan make, I'm not a vegetarian..but can truely respect the dedication it takes to adhere to it as long as its a choice and not a "I'm better than you" excuse.

However I find Vegans as much of a nut job in their convolutions of diet as I would a Carnovian (made it up yeh I know), what nut would say I eat nothing that isn't meat? Lets just say they would be a dying breed so too the Vegan there must be a input of protein in a humans diet to build muscles etc. you can for a time get enough protein from vegetable protein..however there are ammino acids not present in a all veg diet that do in time take their toll.

For countless generations mankind has been close to his foodsource, it wasn't until the industrial revolution that mankind has been more and more divorced for the gather/production to the consumption. Once we as a race moved past the hunter/gather stage (small animals/nuts/berries) and quite often hungry, we began a domestication stage.

Anyone who has lived on a family farm understands the natural cycle and usually with modern farming techniques they are by far the healthiest citizens about. During the abundant phase of spring and summer they eat (as do the animals) as much fruits and vegetables as possible (they also can and/or preserve as much of this bounty as possible for later consumption in winter months). As summer turns to fall and the grains begin their harvest farmer John and family gather it to silos and convert them to a user friendly form (flour/corn meal etc.). As winter starts to take hold farmer John begins the winter harvest...animals. He starts taking the nonbreeding stock/older less productive chicken etc. This not only fills his larder for his family but cuts down on the animals requiring his squirreled away grain and summer bounty. As winter turns to spring the cycle repeats.

[hysteria75t]

Mneme,

Love the song and thank you for the link as Baby Poo might be one of my new favorite songs

If you want to eat veggies go for it, if you wanna eat the meat, do that to.

I just wanted to really acknowledge the song and give you a thumbs up for trying to make light of whatever happened in chat.

[StarSeekerVDS]

Hehe thank you.

Yes, the Arrogant Worms are awesome.

No I don't mean the posters in this thread hehe.

[Guest Rudo]

Even if you're a weightlifter there's other sources of protein like milk, eggs and whey supplements.

I eat meat because it's tasty. But not a whole lot, your body just doesn't need it.