Level 100 revamp in progress.

[Mimir[IS]]

I get that... but again ask yourself, is this grouping part of a core mission line and thus prevents you from moving forward in the game? Or is it simply an optional, nice to have? From Mattacre's complaints, it seems like his issue is with the BB line, which really is truly optional. You must already be OL150 and max hull in order to even start it, so it's not stopping you from any other content.

Edit: Perhaps I'm missing something here. Is there some new mission objective that blocks you from progressing and requires help from other classes and is NOT an optional mission?

I like missions, I enjoy doing them...I dislike being excluded because my play time does not coincide with the majority of other players needed to finish a mission.

[Mimir[IS]]

And if it takes just not playing a progen to enjoy the game ... so be it. I already don't play my progens except for the occasional Call forward and to make ammo for my alts.

[fuulishone]

I like missions, I enjoy doing them...I dislike being excluded because my play time does not coincide with the majority of other players needed to finish a mission.

I can sympathize with that... Due to real life job changes, I had to stop raiding during EnB Live and missed out on finishing off my TE's gear. Unfortunately, that's the nature of things, not all content is meant to be accessible to folks that have shorter, more restrictive play schedules.

And if it takes just not playing a progen to enjoy the game ... so be it. I already don't play my progens except for the occasional Call forward and to make ammo for my alts.

Putting aside the concerns with the BB mission line, as it's only one element here... What's preventing you from enjoying your progen characters?

[Mimir[IS]]

Nothing... everything is great... it's just me... I look forward to being told how and who I need to group with, to play the game. Let me at it...

[fuulishone]

I was being serious. If one mission line can cause you such angst that you won't play your Progen characters, then there's something else going beyond simply the mission. No one mission should have that kind of power over one's enjoyment of the game.

In terms of being told who, how, when to group... That's simple. Once you entire content you can't solo, you need a group. How/who? Dual box, in guild, friends list, various in game channels and no I'm not being facetious. I'm genuinely interested in knowing how this one singular mission affects you so greatly.

[Mimir[IS]]

I was being serious. If one mission line can cause you such angst that you won't play your Progen characters, then there's something else going beyond simply the mission. No one mission should have that kind of power over one's enjoyment of the game.

In terms of being told who, how, when to group... That's simple. Once you entire content you can't solo, you need a group. How/who? Dual box, in guild, friends list, various in game channels and no I'm not being facetious. I'm genuinely interested in knowing how this one singular mission affects you so greatly.

Ok here it is, I don’t remember anything in live that “Required” or forced grouping. I understand that this isn’t live but it seems very convenient that some arguments go “we can’t do this because it wasn’t that way in live” (ores – mobs- drops) but the same time we get the argument that “this isn’t live”. I wish one or the other point of view was decided on and stuck with throughout. I played live and I have no problem grouping when I want to group, and when other wants to group with me. But I also don't want to not miss out on content because some Dev thinks that the only time to advance is to play the game at a time when he or she thinks I should play.

If it is going to be as it was in live FB, Controller, etc should be the only “forced” grouping.

Others have expressed concerns with the whole forced grouping thing. It's your game do what you want.

I will join a guild (if any will have me) so that when I need to advance a progen character (and conversely be there to help guild mate’s advance) I will be able to count on at least knowing when others will be there to help and be helped.

[fuulishone]

Ok here it is, I don’t remember anything in live that “Required” or forced grouping. I understand that this isn’t live but it seems very convenient that some arguments go “we can’t do this because it wasn’t that way in live” (ores – mobs- drops) but the same time we get the argument that “this isn’t live”. I wish one or the other point of view was decided on and stuck with throughout. I played live and I have no problem grouping when I want to group, and when other wants to group with me. But I also don't want to not miss out on content because some Dev thinks that the only time to advance is to play the game at a time when he or she thinks I should play.

You're 100% correct. There were no missions in live that actually required folks to get in a group in order to complete them. While it was advantageous to do so in many instances, you didn't have to. Having said that though, many missions required interaction with others, either through sharing of knowledge (like when Zeke's first missions became available and no one knew how to start them, there was much discussion on the Explorer channel), or through active interaction between classes (like the various components required to build the Oni Comm Device as they were race restricted on the build side).

Some of these missions were specifically for enabling raid content, so for the most part, while you could do the mission yourself, you couldn't take full advantage of the rewards until and unless you had a raid. (FB activation, Oni Comm Device, the dude that was activated that eventually dropped the ML-X11 Bolas launcher don't remember the details.)

In think the issue is the perception that certain missions require folks to do things outside their class is forced grouping. I would offer that it's not grouping at all, but simple normal and natural interaction with the server community. Sure it may be hard due to the low population to find someone that can make XYZ component for you, but if it was easy then what's the value of the reward?

If it is going to be as it was in live FB, Controller, etc should be the only “forced” grouping.

Agree 95%. There should be tough mobs and encounters that require grouping, but these should not be tied to missions that are core to character progression.

Specifically with respect to the BB mission however, I have to disagree a little bit.

The Brimstone Ballista was a raid item, and really shouldn't even be in the game as a mission reward. But being as it's here, but the mobs/zone aren't, one can almost equate the necessity to give it the "must group" aspect with whatever tools are currently available.

It's been said before the the BB line will go away, so it's a temporary mission. I've also raised before in other threads that it's completely inappropriate that Progens have access to raid only items like the Brimstone Ballista, Crimson Force Barrier, via missions, but most Progens just blithely ignore the fact that it's content they shouldn't have, and prefer to focus on how it's forced grouping. I don't believe it's forced grouping, but rather it's an epic mission in lieu of epic mob and should be treated as placeholder until the mobs become available.

I will join a guild (if any will have me) so that when I need to advance a progen character (and conversely be there to help guild mate’s advance) I will be able to count on at least knowing when others will be there to help and be helped.

You're well known and helpful (at least to me), I'm sure any guild will be happy to invite you. My play times have been terrible, but when I am on, I do watch the various usual channels. If I'm able, I'd be happy to help with missions.

[Mattsacre]

I think you miss the point. Per Bahkee's post here and past posts yes indeed he has said the BB was a "place holder" and yes BB was a raid item. He also said the intent was something uber and unique and desired for and by progens. So some other super gun, reactor, shield..whatever.The gist emplied is to encourage crafting and enhance story line for and about progens.

It is a "form" or "spirit" if you will of forced grouping to REQUIRE items from another class to complete the MISSION line of an item in your classes sphere of skill. I.E. ores needed by a PW or uber loot drop item out of a PS/PP combat range, PMed only comp for a PS/PW etc. My gripe is not about material needed for the manufacture of the missions ending recipe reward. There was indeed times in live that this WOWism did creep into the game at EAs behest, items you had to have crafted from another class so you could complete your mission..but not in beta and not under WestWoods watch (I was a prebeta tester..I knew many of the devs in person RL..I live in vegas and interacted with them, even shed a tear and a beer with them when EA killed OUR baby:/) it was EAs brainstorm to have forced interdependance and friends list/rewards crap to "enhance subscription rates" <--their words..(/read revenue rates with no outlay).

WOWists think that *rubbing hand together* "hey they will make friends that way and not unsubscribe..it will be their online social network..as we rake it in!" They may even be right..but is this project about money or the love of the game? So it's "bonus" content you say..yes its optional. But if you want the recipe its not optional is it? and that bonus content when it was first proposed and approved was sold as single "doable"..but it seems a bit of mission creep has set in and now we find what was proposed has morphed into forced dependance, I have repeatedly voiced my opinion against this as I have seen were it ends..and its disasterous. Rather than enhance the game and make it more fun it dulls it down to the lowest level of LF this or WTB that.

With content needing 900 L9 ores from a PW (who you do know don't mine right?) to finish, he is playing the WTB spam instead of out "doing" as a PW should. He COULD be out helping others with combat objectives, playing tank or being part of that MMO enhancing his and others interactive experience. Instead he is doing the soul crushing WTB..WTB...WTB..WTB for hours on end. Or..since there is no 900 L9 to be had (since everyone else is scrambling for the same stuff) he has to log on a alt miner and mine for a week (don't get me wrong...mining has its own allure and I enjoy that also at times). Instead of enhancing his and others game play he is camping a resource and pissing off other players and ruining their play just to gather the stuff. The PS conversely shouldn't have to camp overpowering mobs for loot drops (and getting xp debt because of it) to finish their missions etc.

Once again the REWARD might be a forced dependance for material..not the mission optional or not. You should never hit a "stopper" to character development because of artificial class blending/depenance, rather than enhance game play it makes it opressive and chore like. The point of a MMO is to escape reality a bit, relax, socialize...this becomes less likely when it becomes a JOB. You do not need to FORCE player interaction through NPC dynamics..it always fails in the end. Players interact as friends, market, guild, combat groups, raids..etc. and it is intuative it FLOWS and through that works to enjoyment.

Mimir expressed exactly what happens when you force it...they don't play those characters except to manufacture something, or experience the new "shiny". How does that enhance game play? When they find it too much of a chore to play a toon then its just that..a CHORE..not what a MMO is about..it drives folks off in droves..or starts the cyclical (and game killing), on again off again season player..they don't play because they are bored and wait for the new shiney to come back for a month then leave again, taking their recipes, skills ,knowledge and social interaction out of play with them...impoverishing the fan base in the process.

[Mattsacre]

Oh..and about the BB mission as it is now....its the option, option. It's for those that did the bonus missions before and all the option..but due to bugs and mission conflict failed to get the intended recipes etc. My PW did all the bonus stuff (and then some!) and bugs prevented him from getting rewards..thus me not testing content nor recipes..nor "interacting" with other players through that content and market. My PP was denighed that content and recipes because of timing..he did the L50 HU just before that content went into effect and advanced to L75 in the 2 day window of implimentation..thus not doing the optional content at 50 to do the 75,100, 135 bonus (which I would have done to test and experience it..if even given the chance!)...so he lost out on that at those lvl...now the new mnemnon stuff is the new option to get him there.

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

Simple,

The Agrippa Technology line is a very minute area of content that is created for the multiple interraction content of the game. It is hard and demanding, and you'll probably shedd blood sweat and tears doing it. Then you'll probably get to a block until another progen class researches an item.

It is more like a relay race. And yes, it does involve interractions with different classes. Because, it is about developing new ingame items, primarily for Progen. You will get no experience or credits for these Agrippa Technology missions, eventually. You get a blueprint.

Agrippa Technology creations will require interractions between all 3 progen classes to research the items, but this doesn't mean you will have to group to complete the mission. Dedicated builders may have an easier time though. Agrippa Technology is there for the serious builders of items.

Otherwise select other 'optional' token missions.

And Agrippa Technology Stage I is only for Progen Characters. The Collegia is developing gear to rival InfinitiCorp and sees no reason to implement builds that the Terran Trader or Jenquai Seeker could easily copy. The security in requiring different Progen Classes in these builds creates blocks in Terrans or Jenquai also analyzing the gear.

Stage II will have some specialist invites in, and this will be less reliant on other classes.

Stage I is the 'hardcore' researcher team, several classes togther.

Agrippa Technology is about working together as has been stated many times in the past. However, as i've yet to play WoW I don't believe that I've taken anything from that game. I do do other roleplaying, namely, Delta Green, Dark Heresy, ShadowRun. Agrippa Technology simply takes the component builder requirement of most builds to another level, when one of the components is an item outside your build tree.

You don't need to group up, and natural pressure will allow people to get to stages. Trying to implement missions that do not all seem the same but with a different kill takes some thought. Agrippa Technology is designed to let Sentinels and Warriors in particular feel that their build skills are still worthwhile.

> Removal of Brimstone Ballista from mission line: YES.

> Removal of Crimson Force Barrier from mission line: Happened 5 months ago...