net-7 db Re: Missile Launchers - L1 Comparison

[Codemonkeyx]

@Winlander

 

https://www.net-7.org/wiki/index.php?title=Missile_Launchers_-_L1_Comparison

 

Quote

In many instances, the ML & PL DPS200% values reported in the Net-7 Database are anomalous. Calculating the 200% damage has indicated that the calculated figure is often slightly less, by an inconsistent amount from the figures reported in the Net-7 Database, with a simple doubling of the 100% DPS value falling in between the two. If you see in the chart below something like 3.19 ^+0.10, this means to add the indicated superscript-value to obtain the Net-7 DB value; in this example, 3.19 + 0.10 = 3.29. For example, with L1 MLs, the observed differences were 0.10, 0.12, 0.18, 0.19, 0.12, 0.19, 0.11, 0.11, 0.01, and 0.0. As you can see, the difference value is not consistent, and the single NonMf gun's values seems to show the wiki calculation methodology to be valid. If anyone can detect where the calculation discrepancy lies, please send a message to Winlander in the ENB Forum. Figures calculated in the wiki as follows: ReloadRate200% as per Net7, AmmoDamage200% as per Net7, VolleysPerMinute = 60 / ReloadRate200%, DmgPerMinute200% = RoundsPerVolley x AmmoDamage200% x VolleysPerMinute, DPS200% = DmgPerMinute200% / 60.

 

 

I couldn't figure out any other way to attach a spreadsheet (can't PM it, and can't attach to wiki) so starting a thread here.

I validated that all the values you have match what is shown on the Net-7 DB with the sole exception of that 19.50 Dmg 200% value on the Brown Dragonfly Ichi; that shows as 19 in the Net-7 DB so I corrected that in my data.

 

I think I understand where the values are coming from now, but it's still anyone's guess as to which ones are accurate.  But the 200% DPS value shown is precisely the average between the DPS you got calculating based on the shown Reload/Dmg, and the Max DPS value you get by using the min Reload and max Dmg together after working backward to get each from the other and the shown DPS value.

 

I attached a spreadsheet showing the details.  It doesn't look like an obvious rounding or truncation issue.  My best guess is that only a subset of those values are actually provided by the game, and the others were calculated externally (and likely incorrectly).  It's fairly telling that the Reload values are to 1 decimal place and the Damage per shot values are integers.  Those are probably the only values provided by the game (as properties on the weapon and ammo respectively), and the DPS values (which are all to two decimals) are probably all calculated.

 

I can't quite explain how the convoluted averaging I've shown would come about, but if the game stores things differently that may explain it.

 

I suppose the only way to be sure is to to actually test it in-game and verify no resists or weakness on the target (i.e. yellow damage text with no modifiers). Ideally on a low level character so you don't have equipment or skill bonuses throwing off the numbers.

 

My gut feeling is that the calculations you were doing are correct (i.e. trust the Reload and Damage per shot values from the items themselves), but it's hard to explain how else those DPS values could come about.  It's no coincidence that the values are exactly between the base calculation and the max.  Since the N7 DPS values are the average, in the absence of testing, using those directly might be the best way to hedge your bet!

 

Overall I agree with your assessment though, something is definitely wrong with the Net-7 DB numbers!

DPS.xlsx

[Codemonkeyx]

The plot thickens...

 

@Winlander just reported that the same stat (Reload 200%) is being reported differently in two different places depending on where you look in the Net-7 DB... e.g. if you go to:

 

https://www.net-7.org/#item/Good+ML+Type+X1

 

you will see Reload 200% = 8.00 seconds

 

but if you go to:

 

https://www.net-7.org/#database/items

 

and search for "Good ML Type X1" you will get 3 results, and the "Stats" column for the first entry (the one referred to directly by the link above) shows Reload 200% = 7.75 seconds???  Before you tell me it's just rounding (and then just printing .00 for "reasons"), take a look at:

 

https://www.net-7.org/#item/Marvelous+ML+Type+C

 

and explain how we get from 8.12 on the item page to 7.88 on the search Stats?? lol

 

This was actually a relief to @Winlander because at least the numbers in the "Stats" column of the search results appear to make sense when the ones on the item page don't, but I'm still not entirely convinced because if you look at Marvelous ML Type C DPS, the rounding is not quite right. I can explain away a lot of things but how a calculated ~4.124 becomes 4.13 doesn't make any sense.

 

I attached an updated spreadsheet with a lot more columns trying to workout where these numbers are coming from and it still isn't clear to me.

 

@Doctor or @karu, any ideas here?

DPSv2.xlsx

[Doctor]

Looks like a bug with all MLs to me. I see the same behavior in Type Bs (lvl 4-6) and Type As (lvl 7-9). Projectiles seem fine. The search results are assuming a 37% reduction in reload time, while the item pages are assuming a 35% reduction in reload time. This is not the case with projectiles, where both assume a 37% reload time reduction at 200%. How or why this is the case? Only a web dev can answer that.

[karu [WDL]]

@Codemonkeyx @Doctor

 

Search list was using hardcoded 0.63 for reload. I changed to to 0.65 for missiles.

Only ammo using weapons were affected.

 

Item page is using 'ship simulation' to calculate the stats and that fetches stats/mods from db.

 

Thanks,

[Codemonkeyx]

Thanks @karu, though that is doubly confusing to me as that implies that the numbers that "looked more correct" (but not entirely correct) were wrong 🤣

 

My guess is there is a bug in 'ship simulation' or there is a problem with how the Item page is getting the values from it as the DPS values don't make sense.  Now they're actually worse because they're still different between the Item page and the stats, but neither one seems entirely right...

Continuing to use:
https://www.net-7.org/#item/Good+ML+Type+X1
as an example...

Stats:

Damage (200%): 25 (32.50)
DPS (200%): 2.03 (4.07)
...
Reload (200%): 12.30 (8.00)

DPS = Damage / Reload

32.50/8.00 = 4.0625 which is not 4.07 in any sane kind of rounding...

 

Item page:

Damage per shot		   DPS
    25 (32)			2.03 (4.19)
...
Reload time	12.30 (8.00)

DPS = Damage / Reload

32/8.00 = 4.00 which is pretty far off from 4.19.....

 

All three of these sets of numbers should match between the Item page and the stats, and for each set it should hold that:

100% DPS = 100% Damage / 100% Reload

(200% DPS) = (200% Damage) / (200% Reload)

[Codemonkeyx]

Also worth pointing out that the 100% numbers do work as one would expect, including rounding and are identical between the Item page and the Stats:

 

25/12.30 = 2.032520325 i.e. 2.03

[Codemonkeyx]

So perhaps part of the problem here (with the Stats output) is rounding before calculating the DPS in one case but not the other?

 

200% Reload = 0.65*12.30 = 7.995

 

200% DPS = 32.50/7.995 = 4.06504065 i.e. 4.07

Edited March 8 by Codemonkeyx
this is specific to the Stats and doesn't address the Item page issue at all, also derp typed old reload 200% constant

[Codemonkeyx]

So just to clarify, I can live with the rounding error on the 200% Stats as that makes sense how that comes about, if that is indeed correct, but is it?  Is the 200% reload factor supposed to be different between missiles(0.65) and projectiles(0.63)?

Edited March 8 by Codemonkeyx
200%

[Codemonkeyx]

(So the key observation here for anyone following along is that 200% Reload is itself a calculated and pre-rounded value, so any subsequent calculations using it will have rounding error introduced)

[karu [WDL]]

@Codemonkeyx Thanks, I missed that ammo stats (dps) uses wrong mod aswell in item page (another hardcoded value)

Reload mod for projectile (0.63) and missile (0.65) are different.

[Codemonkeyx]

Thanks @karu, this is all looking much better now!

 

The one issue I still see is e.g. on the 200% Damage:

 

Stats:

Damage (200%): 25 (32.50)

 

Item:

Damage per shot
    25 (32)

 

Is the value on the item page just being truncated?  Can those also be printed to two decimal places to match elsewhere?

[karu [WDL]]

12 hours ago, Codemonkeyx said:

Is the value on the item page just being truncated?

 

Yeah it was truncated, fixed now.

 

Thanks,

[Codemonkeyx]

Excellent!  Thanks for all the fixes @karu!

 

So good news and bad news @Winlander... good news is the ML stats are all fixed... the bad news is all the ML stats on the wiki are wrong

Edited March 9 by Codemonkeyx

[Winlander]

Lol at least I've only got 3 levels done, not the full nine! I'll go over Levels 1, 2, and 3 again. I hate it when the placeholders are all changed to numbers though.. I have to go very slowly and carefully to make sure I am in the right column and updating the right category of number.

 

I hate to be bothersome, but...... are the PLs fixed too?!

 

 

[Codemonkeyx]

2 hours ago, Winlander said:

Lol at least I've only got 3 levels done, not the full nine! I'll go over Levels 1, 2, and 3 again. I hate it when the placeholders are all changed to numbers though.. I have to go very slowly and carefully to make sure I am in the right column and updating the right category of number.

 

I hate to be bothersome, but...... are the PLs fixed too?!

 

 

 

I could convert those rows to a template with named params... that would probably make life a lot easier!

[Codemonkeyx]

@karu don't shoot the messenger, but I was trying to put together a new "final" spreadsheet showing all these calculations and noticed there are still some (very minor) rounding issues on a subset of the MLs I've looked at so far, but only on the Item page (the search stats are correct) e.g.

 

Name	100% Reload	200% Reload Search Stats	200% Reload Item	200% Reload Codemonkeyx
Brown Dragonfly Ichi	9.40	6.11	6.11	6.1100
Defender Damaged	10.90	7.09	7.09	7.0850
Fine ML Class Z1	13.40	8.71	8.71	8.7100
Good ML Type X1	12.30	8.00	8.00	7.9950
Iron Dragonclaw	10.90	7.09	7.09	7.0850
Marvelous ML Type C	12.50	8.13	8.12	8.1250
ML-X1 "Harvestman" Mk. I	12.10	7.87	7.87	7.8650
ML-X7 "Scorpion" Mk. I	11.10	7.22	7.21	7.2150
White Dragonfly M1	10.20	6.63	6.63	6.6300

 

It seems there is still a slight difference between how this value is being calculated/rounded in the two different places?  I'm not sure what would explain this since it's correct for the majority of MLs now (e.g. of the 9 L1 ML's that are manufacturable above, only the 2 listed with red have this issue), including others which are also being rounded (i.e. the ones with green above).

 

Links for the two L1 ML pages with the issue:

https://www.net-7.org/#item/Marvelous+ML+Type+C

https://www.net-7.org/#item/ML-X7+"Scorpion"+Mk.+I

 

One other minor thing I noticed is that the "Energy" value on the Item pages is being shown to 2 decimal places, but I don't think that makes sense as they are always whole number integer values (i.e. there is no fractional energy in-game afaik). This value is displayed without decimal places on the search stats which I believe is correct.

Edited April 6 by Codemonkeyx
added links for pages with issue

[karu [WDL]]

21 hours ago, Codemonkeyx said:

It seems there is still a slight difference between how this value is being calculated/rounded in the two different places?

Yes. Should be same in both now.

 

21 hours ago, Codemonkeyx said:

One other minor thing I noticed is that the "Energy" value on the Item pages is being shown to 2 decimal places,

Should be fixed.

 

Thanks,