Question(s) for Merlin: Pop Rocks...

[seekeronos]

We had a minor (ha!) discussion in guild chat a few days ago over the upcoming (and dreaded by some) debut/return of pop rocks, aka "jack-a-roids".

Among a few of the things that came up:

Will the spawn of mob inside the pop rock be based upon the CL of the miner who popped it? This was the case in Live, and I remember some folks using this as a sort of an MPK/grief tactic.

Will the discerning miner be able to tell a pop-rock apart from its inert neighbours?

Will pop-rocks have a random chance of buffing the player instead of spawning a mob (as in Live)

Concerning the combat level of the mob that spawns, I would like to make the following recommendations:

- The popped mob should not be keyed to the CL of the spawning miner, but have a level range appropriate to the field, and preferably with a mob typical to the sector.

- The mob should tether to a 6-8km radius of the point where the spawned, so it doesn't stray into other fields or go too far across a sector.

- Some sectors should have a significantly lower seed for generating a pop-rock than others; riskier fields may have a higher seed value.

- Pop rock mobs should despawn after 5 minutes if not engaged by anyone.

- Ideally, the mob that spawns should have aggro only to the spawning miner, and be non-aggro to others in the vicinity (this may not be possible if aggressiveness is hardcoded into mob types)

- Glenn Sector should be left alone as "the low hanging fruit" for people who want zero-risk mining.

Edited June 9, 2010 by -Seeker-

[Allia]

I'm not Merlin I know, I loved pop rocks in live (PS...go figure) so couldn't resist commenting. I spent a lot of time purposely popping them for the free combat xp inside~ so remember a lot about them.

Will the discerning miner be able to tell a pop-rock apart from its inert neighbours?

I can verify that they should be able to, its subtle but someone paying attention should have no issues. Roids that where 'popppers' always looked 'funny' to the field. Example - lv 1 roid field is normally all blue...but then there would be a lv1 roid that looked yellow (aka looks lv3). That's your popper. Good miners in live could avoid them pretty easy. Not sure what all the colors of popers looked like, but a good rule of thumb seemed to be +2 lvs. Aka lv1 popper looked lv3, lv7 poper looked lv 9, lv9 popper cycled back to start and looked lv2. Of coarse since lv1 feilds can be mixed with lv2 ore lv3 fields...that's where the challenge comes it. The roid looks perfectly at home...just the lv is off...have to pay attention.

Also, there where more 'hints' that it was a dud roid by looking at its ores in it. Would be something extremely off about it, like a lv9 in a lv5 roid or a lv2 in a lv9 roid. Essentially the ores would not match the roid lv. I don't believe the difference was something as static as the roid colors (2 lvs over), but more random that you didn't get 'used' to it and it could sometimes be convincing . Like a lv 8 that had a lv6 in it...almost looks right. Keep in mind in live roids could contain only ores from its lv, one above, and one below...so a lv8 could have lv7s or lv9 in it although was majority lv8 stuff. Also I do believe that Westwood had a bit of twisted mind for the higher lv pop rocks....there was always be a tempting high value ore (like ammo ores) in the ore list that just screamed come pop me! If your where a miner just cherry picking the the 'good stuff' and not paying attention to the lv/names of other ores in the roid you'd get got pretty easy.

PS - I also believe level of the field had something to do with the CL of the mob spawned. Like lv9 popers I never saw spawn anything under a cl45 even if the je mining it had neglected their cl18. I'm guessing each lv of popper had a 'mob minimum lv'...a lv9 roid popping a cl20 for the cl18 je would be kinda silly.

In summery.....YAY Pop Rocks!

[bondct]

on my ps i loved pop rocks too... cuz they were so easy to kill... but hated them on my JE... and tbh I am not very trusting of what the devs would do with them here... last thing I am looking for while mining is constant death traps... I find mining very relaxing as is...

question though as live was a long time ago... wasnt the reason that pop rocks were put in was not to add anything postivie to the game... but to combat macro miners? if thats the case, then my vote... leave them out... mining is fun as is

[Allia]

I believe they where also put in as sort of a 'control' to who could mine. A cl1 je could easily out mine someone who could actually handle the pop rocks due to being cl appropriate, but should they be able too? I think the favor should go to the person who bothered to be able to time to be able to deal with the mobs in the field they are mining. Live really focused on getting players to balance out their lvs...much more than emu. I'd like to see play elements that required people to balance out a little bit more....with 10 lvs of it type thing. The whole tl50 cl/el under 20 think kinda seems strongly unbalanced at the moment (errr...no offense Avani...just noticed...). I feel that pop rocks was one of those things that encouraged miners to try and keep the cl at least somewhat lagging behind.

[Lars[IS]]

Hello,

Ok, I will try to answer to what I believe will happen when pop rocks will go in. 1st, you can kind of use the job mobs as a guide as to when pop rocks will go in. I think once they get all be bugs out of job mobs then someone will work on pop rocks. I am sure anyone who plays runs into someones job mob that is just wonderiing around with the player that spawned it log or kicked off. I find these every day, try to pm the player and who rarely there and then kill it.

Now lets say pop rocks are now being put into the game. I too like these little bundles of fun as I have always been one who does ballance out the lvl's so I could deal with what ever "Pops" up. Here is what I think the pop rocks should be like:

1. To make it easy on the programmers at the start would be to just use a simple rule as to the lvl of mob vrs lvl of rock. Something like 5 cl's pre lvl of poping rock. Example: lvl 5 rock pops, lvl 25 mob comes out, lvl 9 pops a lvl 45 comes out.

2. In the ore sector editor I use to place ore fields in the sectors has a setting as to the % of rocks that will be poppers. Right now I have set most all of them to 0 since pop rocks are not in the game yet. Once David or Tienbau programs them in I will talk to the other Dev's/GM and most importainly the players to get an idea what would be the best settings to use. I know when I am useing the sector editor some people set the pop rocks to 50% which is silly and others set them to 0, so you see there is a wide range of what some people think it should be set at.

3. If I remember right didn't pop rocks move just a little bit? I think that pop rocks should look just like the other rocks in that there is a suprise factor involed here. Other wise you will come across fields with nothing in them other then pop rocks. The way the fields are setup now is that once the last rock is pulled the respawn timer starts so you can see the problem.

4. As to "Cherry pickers", I do not and have never cherry picked in the game both in live and here. I do not like this way of mining and will work with David on the best way to deal with these players. Sure there is no "Writen" rule to this, but there should be. One idea is that if someone does cherry pick and not pull all the ores out of a rock is to give that rock say a 50% chance of coming alive and popping! The only example of where I think Cherry picking is ok is if you need something for a mission. I believe the progans need to get something on there hull upgrade missions so in this case Cherry picking is ok. Don't worry this is just my opion and I will go with what ever the masses agree to. So don't worry, I will not wake up one day and say to myself, "Self, lets mess up the players and change it just because I think it needs changed"!

5. I think if a rock pops and the player runs away or just gets booted (I know, never happens right?) that the mob should just become part of the field and hang around. Someone will kill it anyway and since I put guard mobs in the fields acording to lvl of ore anyway it should not be a big deal to just let the mob hang out in the field.

6. Now for the "Merlin factor" and to give David a headack. What if there was a chance that when a rock popped that the mob that came out became you friend? It would just follow you around until you either gated, WH'd or logged off. This idea came to me the other night when a GM & I had some fun and spawned a couple of mobs and just followed a player around. I know, bad Dev/GM, but heck we need to have fun too. So here is an example: Rock pops and there would be say a 10 to 25% chance that it would be a frieldly mob that pop's. Lets also say that this frieldly mob is a lvl 60 to 66. It would just follow you around and keep you safe in the sector until you leave. Now once you did leave the sector the mob would just vanish. Another way you could deal with ending this friendship would be to click on this mob and say something like "Ok, I have to go now" then the mob would say goodbye, go puff and in it's place would be a parting gift. I know, wishfull thinking right? :-)

Ok, that is about all I can come up with at the moment where pop rocks are concerned. We can chat about it for now, but when they are ready, they will work on them so just sit back and be happy in knowing that one day the pop rocks we all know and love will be back in the game at some point! TTYL :-)

Merlin

[Tienbau]

the job mobs should be much better behaved now.

I can easily add pop rocks with explosions and/or mob poppers - just post up how to implement them (I think I remember you could tell by the roid being a slightly funny colour or ores which were too high level in there).

[Allia]

1. Sounds pretty fair and inline with Live's lv ranges.

2. I remember about 1 in 10 repops of a field having a popper. Chances of a popper seemed to increase if a lower lv was mining extremely high lv roids. Back to that cl1 je vs the balanced miner thing. You could have as many as 2-3 roids per field turn sour on you if the previous miner had been someone way under leveled for the lv of roids. It'd be amusing to have the pop rock chance be partially based off the mining lv of the person(s) who cleared it. Also field guardians (specifically manes) seem attracted to the 'sound' of mining and come to investigate. Frankly in live I found the color/odd ore to be quite subtle enough. If nessicary only use one lv up (aka lv1 green roid is a popper since they normally blue and lv2 are green). This would make it even more challenging at the higher lvs (lv9 blue vs lv1 blue....hard choice). And now that I think about it, I believe my earlier statement of 2 lvs over is wrong. It is probably most likely 1 lv difference.

3. I don't remember them 'moving' just the color and ore differences I posted above. Though I think I slightly remember that they would 'groan' occasionally (the sound it makes when the roid shifts between phases/looks while being minded). Pop rocks in live where not actually 'part' of the field I don't believe. Can set it up so its a chance to spawn a pop rock with the actual field, instead of a chance to spawn as part of the field. If a field spawns 21 rocks instead of 20...whose counting? ^.~ At the lower lv smaller fields it might be noticeable...but newbies deserve the extra warning.

4. I don't see 'cherry pickers' as much as an issue now due to the xp bonus for field/roid clear. Its very much the carrot approach vs the stick...and I say it works quite well. Even if I'm just picking up something for a mission I at least clear the whole roid to get that extra little bonus. I must disagree with the 'if you stop mining it pops!' idea though. There is many times I put down a roid mid way through for buffs (namely shield shunt and reactor recharge) so I can finish the roid. It's not that I have no intention of finishing it...just that I need to buff to be able too. A way to stop 'cherry picking' I think would be more along the lines of 'if you mine more than x roids only partially before completing one full roid, then you get a -buff on you that doubles or even triples the cost of mining'. If you got hit by the buff, you'd have to mine as many roids as you left unfinished to start mining normally again. A low number like 5 roids would allow mission goes to quickly pick what they need and move on, while significantly putting the stop on money maker cherry picker types. Those that need to stop and buff mid roid wouldn't be affected either. Obviously the buff would be removed when zoning or logging out, but I think it'd be annoying to log/zone every 5 roids just to cherry pick.

5. This is pretty much what happened in live. I'd come to a field and need to clean up after a je. (No offense JEs.) And if it had names on it like the job mobs did, I think would encourage the popper to kill it themselves instead of leaving it up for others. After all nothing says 'I'm the guilty one who left that lv45 up' like your name in its name.

6. This actually isn't that bad of an idea, although instead of 'following a player around' why not just have it roam the field and fight the local guardians. Of coarse its lv would need to be inline with the mobs/guardians of the area. Like say the claim jumpers cl20 in Carp, a friendly pop would result in a cl25. Something you'd have to help out a little if you wanted to keep your body guard. My only concern with this is the possibility to replace player body guards...thus why the level would need to be more in line with mobs of the area and not god like 60-66s. Warriors like their miner buddies too you know~. (Bonus points if you make it a bogeril...I can see them getting stuck in rocks.)

Edited June 9, 2010 by Raptorred

[bondct]

I think the pop rock mob should match the CL of the player who spawned it... cuz what your saying is that if I level explore and trade first (not uncommon for a JE and maybe even a TS)... then I wont have the CL to kill a L45 mob plus I used to find it challenging to try and mine higher level ores than my level... which you would be killing the fun in that with this kind of pop rock mob

also in regards to cherry pickers... I really think that people should have freedom of choice on how they play the game and not be punished cuz they dont finish off a rock... I know a lot of people truly hate with a passion cherry pickers... but to that I say dont be a hater...

AND ONCE AGAIN I WILL SAY... the devs really need a tool to determine what toons we have and what they are doing...

I mean how many miners do we really have?

how much mining are they really doing? Keep in mind many JE's are WH je's and not miners... In live I initially made my PS for Call Forward only...

How much mining is strip mining for xp and how much mining is for resources for building?

Should an explorer mining ores for ammo or a mission be punished cuz they dont need all the ores in a rock?

With the current player base is this really an issue we should use development hours on when some sectors are not finished?

With the current player base is this really an issue we should use development hours on when some classes *cough TS* are not finished?

Are mine fields really that rare and uncommon that we even care?

When was the last time you saw 2 miners in the smae field?

When was the last time you were in a full group of miners?

When was the last time you saw a warrior spamming chat for a mining party to protect?

Edited June 10, 2010 by Avani

[Terrell [BT]]

the job mobs should be much better behaved now.

I can easily add pop rocks with explosions and/or mob poppers - just post up how to implement them (I think I remember you could tell by the roid being a slightly funny colour or ores which were too high level in there).

This is pretty much the "tell" with respect to hydrocarbons and regular asteroids. If the color of a rock did not match the color of other rocks of the same type and level in the orefield it was a pop rock. Pop rocks could have mobs come out, could have buffs or debuffs. Hulks could also explode, but I don't remember seeing anything obvious about hulks to be able to tell whether or not it would explode. Pop-rocks did not blow just from opening them, the first thing you tried to mine from said pop-rock triggered the explosion.

Hulks often had debris, and ores, sometimes refined. Hulks sometimes had equipment in them as well, and some equipment in Live may have been exclusive to hulks. DigiApogee Prototype PLs were in hulks, I remember mining a L8 one in BBW, in a pure L9 orefield. I think it was the one south of the path of navs to QAR from the 4 gates. Manticore's Nettles were common devices to be found in hulks as well in Live. May have found a warp kaza or two in hulks as well.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Terrell

[Tienbau]

It'll probably be best to wait until Mr Merlin's finished working his magic on the resource drops before changing anything else. Having some nice hulks dropping tasty gadgets will be awesome enough for now - you never know what's going to be in them ... is it going to be a nice apogee engine? a fancy aa batuu? no, it's a manticore nettle ... better luck next time, and be grateful it's not a lump of coal!

[Lars[IS]]

It'll probably be best to wait until Mr Merlin's finished working his magic on the resource drops before changing anything else. Having some nice hulks dropping tasty gadgets will be awesome enough for now - you never know what's going to be in them ... is it going to be a nice apogee engine? a fancy aa batuu? no, it's a manticore nettle ... better luck next time, and be grateful it's not a lump of coal!

Hello,

Ok so can I or we start placeing hulks in the fields? Does the ore editor now susport this? I will most likely start working on the Terran sector in the next day or as I am still running around checking out the ore fields. I will say that the problem with the large ore fields (75+ rocks) giving you a neg field clear bonus should be fixed now. I did find or should I say someone else found a field with lvl 2 Helium in it which was an over site on my part. As soon I am sure everything is A-O-K I will get back to the grind. TTYL :-)

Merlin

[Terrell [BT]]

It'll probably be best to wait until Mr Merlin's finished working his magic on the resource drops before changing anything else. Having some nice hulks dropping tasty gadgets will be awesome enough for now - you never know what's going to be in them ... is it going to be a nice apogee engine? a fancy aa batuu? no, it's a manticore nettle ... better luck next time, and be grateful it's not a lump of coal!

Or an exploding hulk. One that showed some really nice item in it, one opens it, mines it, then BOOM! Jack A Roid.

[seekeronos]

I'm largely in agreement with Avani - in that many miners - especially JEs - will lag their CLs behind by at least 10-15 levels.

That being said, I think the CL to roid level ratio seems about right:

RL (roid level) : Mob Level

1: 0-4

2: 5-9

3: 10-14

4: 15-19

5: 20-24

6: 25-29

7: 30-34

8: 35-39

9: 40-45

And nothing more than L45, even at L9... because if an otherwise inert field (no gaurdians) has a 80 roids and 10% of these have a chance of popping a mob, then that would be about eight L35+ mobs bunched up in one field.

Painful indeed.

I suggest that before the pop-rock does its thing (say, at the point a miner has opened up the rock) the roll for the mob's level band is factored against the CL of the player who pulls the first "popping" ore.

Example: I have a OL 100 TS, with EL 50 / TL 35 / CL 15, and I am opening a L8 roid, because I have capped Prospect and higher level device builds.

Shame on me a little, for mucking about where the bigger boys play, but all the same - the roll takes into consideration my CL 15, and weights the spawn as more likely to be a L35 mob than a L39.

By contrast, a more even-leveled OL PS 100 with EL 45 / TL 33 / CL 32 would have a higher weight, and would be more likely to pop a L38 or 39 mob from the same L8 rock.

Further, pop roids should not be overly abundant in a field already heavily patrolled by guardians.

[seekeronos]

Or an exploding hulk. One that showed some really nice item in it, one opens it, mines it, then BOOM! Jack A Roid.

Hulks could be an exception to the general proposition of combat level banding I mentioned above, in that they are often a pure greed factor at play.

[Terrell [BT]]

Hulks could be an exception to the general proposition of combat level banding I mentioned above, in that they are often a pure greed factor at play.

True, especially since Hulks didn't have an obvoius "tell" like pop rocks did. I don't remember any obvious difference between a hulk that would explode and one that didn't. Hulks were a crap-shoot, in my expierence as a JE in live. Not to mention Pop-rocks didn't always spawn mobs, somethimes they had buffs or debuffs instead.

The color difference was pretty obvious for those regular rocks that were pop rocks, same for hydrocarbons. It wasn't all that subtle. Hydrocarbons did, and in emulator sometimes do, make a groaning sound when they spawn, if you're close enough to hear it. Regular rocks also made a sound when they spawned, a crumbling, rocky type sound (can't remember if I've heard this in emulator). I can't remember for sure if the glowing rocks, crystal asteroids, gas clouds, or hulks made sounds when spawning. I want to think that the crystalline asteroids made a sound, something glass like, but I can't remember for sure.

[Tienbau]

Hello,

Ok so can I or we start placeing hulks in the fields? Does the ore editor now susport this? I will most likely start working on the Terran sector in the next day or as I am still running around checking out the ore fields. I will say that the problem with the large ore fields (75+ rocks) giving you a neg field clear bonus should be fixed now. I did find or should I say someone else found a field with lvl 2 Helium in it which was an over site on my part. As soon I am sure everything is A-O-K I will get back to the grind. TTYL :-)

Merlin

I don't know if the ore editor supports it, but the server has supported items in hulks for quite some time.

[Lars[IS]]

I don't know if the ore editor supports it, but the server has supported items in hulks for quite some time.

Hello,

The only problem right now is there is no way to put stuff in the hulks. What I want to do is to make up different lists according to the sectors the hulks are in, kind of like the ore list I make for each field. That way Terran hulks would have terran related items, Jen sectors would have Jen stuff and so on. Also, we need a way to organize the items so that lvl 1 things are not put into lvl 9 hulks and lvl 9 ithems in lvl 1's. The best way to do this is just make the ore editor susport hulks & items like it does the ores.

As to the pop rocks, I have some ideas on these and I have already stated some of them. I agree that no pop mob should ever be over cl 45 as 75% of you miners are rarely over that themselves. I do like the idea about "Friendly mobs" and would like to see a version of that done if possible. If not we will live, but I have talked to some of the players about it and they really like the idea. I want to make mining as much fun a combat if possible. Adding as much to that area of the game will not only help out the mining end, but the game as a whole. Combat is easy, Ammo up and go kill things. Mining if done right can be a interesting part of the game. Right now I got alot of players excided about the mining side and want to keep them excided and by adding some fun stuff to it will be greatly excepted by the players. I already have a cool friendly mob picked out, but will wait to tell you if indeed it can be done. TTYL :-)

Merlin

[bondct]

I want to make mining as much fun a combat if possible. Adding as much to that area of the game will not only help out the mining end, but the game as a whole. Combat is easy, Ammo up and go kill things. Mining if done right can be a interesting part of the game.

Merlin

i do wanna point out something else here... when I grind trade runs, I dont expect to get attacked by mobs... when I grind combat, I dont expect to get EL xp... and when I grind EL from mining I really dont expect to be attacked... I would hope that at each level there will be just as many safe unguarded no pop rock fields as there are screwed up ones and we dont expect xp debt while mining...

and again this forum only represents a small minority of people... so it would be nice if you had a dev tool that told you what toons are doing before you spend a lotta time destroying mining... dont get me wrong... I truly appreciate all your efforts to fix the fields... I would just hope that we get ore and gas fields fixed long before we make mining a drudgery with mobs...

keep this in mind for TS and PS... WE USE AMMO! when I go mining I try to bring just the min amt of ammo possible... this thread scares me cuz it makes me think I need a full hold of ammo just to go mining (where will I put the ores? will we get bigger holds due to mining becoming a combat activity? are we trying to unbalance the game giving Jens an uber mining edge due to low sig and beams?)... and puhlez dont say level up beams... I will... but its gonna take like 225 levels...

Edited June 10, 2010 by Avani

[Lars[IS]]

i do wanna point out something else here... when I grind trade runs, I dont expect to get attacked by mobs... when I grind combat, I dont expect to get EL xp... and when I grind EL from mining I really dont expect to be attacked... I would hope that at each level there will be just as many safe unguarded no pop rock fields as there are screwed up ones and we dont expect xp debt while mining...

and again this forum only represents a small minority of people... so it would be nice if you had a dev tool that told you what toons are doing before you spend a lotta time destroying mining... dont get me wrong... I truly appreciate all your efforts to fix the fields... I would just hope that we get ore and gas fields fixed long before we make mining a drudgery with mobs...

keep this in mind for TS and PS... WE USE AMMO! when I go mining I try to bring just the min amt of ammo possible... this thread scares me cuz it makes me think I need a full hold of ammo just to go mining (where will I put the ores? will we get bigger holds due to mining becoming a combat activity? are we trying to unbalance the game giving Jens an uber mining edge due to low sig and beams?)... and puhlez dont say level up beams... I will... but its gonna take like 225 levels...

Hello,

I agree with you as to the point you made about haveing to carry a bunch of ammo with you. It for this reason I put on most all mobs in ore fields to a 30 min timer so when you do kill them you will have time to mine.

On the pop rocks, I think a good % would be from 3 to 5% on most fields and yes some fields will not have any and I also feel that on the lvl's 2 thru 5 the % should be only arond 1 to 2% due to the fact that lvl low mines rarely can do to much combat. Now, if my idea about having some of the poppers turn out to be a tag-along mob, then these numbers will go up a bit as you will have a guard mob for you! I think it would be fun to have a little Devil (a hint) that keeps you safe. TTYL :-)

Merlin

[Allia]

i do wanna point out something else here... when I grind trade runs, I dont expect to get attacked by mobs... when I grind combat, I dont expect to get EL xp... and when I grind EL from mining I really dont expect to be attacked... I would hope that at each level there will be just as many safe unguarded no pop rock fields as there are screwed up ones and we dont expect xp debt while mining...

In live these actions where much more interlaced. Trade runs could get you attacked...remeber the warp grav wells in Inverness the RD set up (well before they got nerfed by EA). I wouldn't mind those again...its adds a little varity to things just so things didn't become a 'grind' as you put it. As far as Combat goes, no you don't get explore xp, but you do get trade from all that loot. Look at job terminals, they don't give you just one type of xp (except trade atm) but instead some side bonus of a different bar. And here you really do get explore with your combat xp. Personally I don't see what's wrong with 'mixing' your combat/trade/explore xp up a little bit, it makes things more dynamic.

keep this in mind for TS and PS... WE USE AMMO! when I go mining I try to bring just the min amt of ammo possible... this thread scares me cuz it makes me think I need a full hold of ammo just to go mining (where will I put the ores? will we get bigger holds due to mining becoming a combat activity? are we trying to unbalance the game giving Jens an uber mining edge due to low sig and beams?)... and puhlez dont say level up beams... I will... but its gonna take like 225 levels...

In live for my PS, a full stack of what I had in my guns normally took care of any poppers becuase 1) they aren't that common and 2) you can easily avoid them via the 'clues' if you where an experienced miner. This is one of the main arguments to keep the clues (color off by one lv/wrong ore types for lv) on pop rocks. I realize that devs want to keep it a surprise, but make it to much of one (no clues) and you'll just end up frustrating your miner groups. Also, most pop rock species where not something that required me to bust out my combat gear to be able to take them. Right now I realize some mobs are harder than others the same CL, pop rock mobs seemed to be more towards the squishy side of the difficulty bar. I really didn't have an issue with this aspect in live, so if done properly, we shouldn't have an issue now.

I don't see why you say 'don't say lv up beams' because it is a valid option. But I do agree that it should stay an 'option' not forced to deal with poppers. It's quite a nice option for this, but I could definitely see TS and PS wanting something other than points forced here. In live I had enough points that I started putting into it and can say I found it worth it...lv5 beams seemed to handle most things ok (never maxed before close). However, I can't say I found my mining and dealing with pop rocks before hand crippled without it (part of that mob squishy rating). So long as this is kept optional and not required it should be fine.

[bondct]

it is a valid option but my full quote was along the lines of I will level up beams but not until I am level 225 (like you said it should not be forced)... ... in other words there are skills that I need for raids and such just to get to L150 and then it will prob take me... another 75 levels above 150 to get to the point where I am leveling up beams... for a TS its kinda a deep endgame thing... yes its a valid option... but imo its not valid until much much later on... so what do you do for that first 200 levels... and in live pop rocks were pretty well balanced if i remember correctly... I am just voicing my thoughts so that we hopefully dont over do it here

[Terrell [BT]]

it is a valid option but my full quote was along the lines of I will level up beams but not until I am level 225 (like you said it should not be forced)... ... in other words there are skills that I need for raids and such just to get to L150 and then it will prob take me... another 75 levels above 150 to get to the point where I am leveling up beams... for a TS its kinda a deep endgame thing... yes its a valid option... but imo its not valid until much much later on... so what do you do for that first 200 levels... and in live pop rocks were pretty well balanced if i remember correctly... I am just voicing my thoughts so that we hopefully dont over do it here

Would agree, and those post 150 levels are slow, unless you're doing lots of group combat in raids or with other over CL50 mobs.