Kyp

Here you go, a static list of all the items currently in-game in the play database sans locations/mobs and the like. Note that this is nothing you couldn't have already obtained by searching the portal database provided by Slayerman, albeit not all at once in a spreadsheet. [attachment=832:item_base.xlsx]

Nah, but the V'rix could take your core systems offline.

Eventually yes, I believe it was a hack meant to force an exploit into submission whereas people had learned a way to make themselves invincible. I will have it checked out.

[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301240481' post='37313'] I have said before, those that don't want the information don't have to use it. I can only wonder at the motivation behind keeping it from those of who do want it. Perhaps, as Kyp has suggested the information could be held for ransom and the older players, with more knowledge of the EnB universe, could demand payment for it. Is this the direction you want the game to go? I have also seen many of the dissenters saying, "The devs say no, so that's it." Thats not an argument, that's an endorsement. I have explained why I want the information publicized. How about expressing a reason for your stance? [/quote] Contrary to what your friend posted, I don't mean to say you are antisocial, but you [b]are[/b] nonetheless playing a social game. If you want to find it, find it. If you want us to tell you, don't hold your breath. By no means was my "bribe" suggestion meant to be the only solution, it was merely jest in part of what I said earlier to be honest. It would be an RP way to do it, but hey, even if the [i]older players[/i] are the only ones who know now, there's nothing stopping you from learning, no matter your argument, the only thing stopping you from making a database is collecting, and building this database that you want. Or in more direct terms, you lack the motivation. (Take whichever you prefer) Now as your friend indicated, you're in a guild, therefore why not ask for all knowledge they have, compile it into a database and start from there? We don't want to show it because more people prefer it the way it is, including us. This is how the game was meant to be played and how it will be played. *shrug* Also as a sidenote, someone said they knew an item wasn't dropping, if the item shows up as "has hidden drops" that means it is attached to a mob, not necessarily that that mob is in an accessible area for you, yet. A good example might be Dark Matter imbued items, those aren't meant to show up until Ardus is revealed and so they won't once we go to the "live" state even if they are available right now from a mob. (I'd have to check) ---- [quote name='Fuulish' timestamp='1301234847' post='37300'] @Kyp/CDel/Bidoc A compromise then? Since the Net7 db already shows information you're okay with, and hides the "fun" aspect of the information, would you be willing to do a static extract/dump of that view for folks that are interested in building their own player contributed wiki/database? This static dump need not be updated ever, it's simply a set of seed data. If no, that's fine, just thought I'd toss that idea out there. [/quote] Sure, I believe I said earlier that I'd pull a snapshot of all the items but wipe out the locations where they can be found. That should be up to you guys to collect, not have handed to you.

What he said, or it certainly was unless someone changed it without mentioning it.

[quote name='Eviticus'] I just wanted to chip in with saying I disagree that the availability of information makes it easier. It was my understanding you were saying that all of the information being available would make the game impossibly easy and ho-hum. I was just saying that there are many games that have been around for years that have been picked apart and put together by the fanbase down to the smallest variables and they are still great fun. And again I am not saying it should be the Staff that provides this information, it should and must be the players that figure this out. [/quote] No worries, to clarify what I personally meant, there's a fine distinction between you guys collecting it and displaying it (which I'm for) and us handing it to you on a silver platter (which I'm against), that's all. I would encourage people who wanted to make a database of their own or a player-driven one like WowHead. [quote name='Bidoc'] [color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]I never intended to imply you're with me or against me. In fact, you are doing that, not I. I am asking for more diverse style of play while you are limiting it to one of your choosing. You'll dash my style to support their's. Again, making the info available doesn't require anyone to use it. It appears to me, you're pushing for a cut throat environment, perhaps inspired by Eve. I do hope not. This is a fun game, Eve is not. This is a friendly game, Eve is not. This is the game I have chosen to play for now, Eve is not. [/font][/color] [color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"] [/font][/color] [color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]It wasn't me who suggested you might bribe a player for information, but Kyp did. Please do more than scan the topic before going on like this. Now I'll have to do damage control.[/font][/color] [color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"] [/font][/color] [color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]I don't believe hiding the loot tables will accomplish that.[/font][/color] [color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"] [/font][/color] [color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]There have already been several examples provided and linked where mmo's do in fact give access to their data, at least in part, whether in the form of a static dump or through live connection. If you would also read more, you'd see I said I would write and publish a searchable database myself for those interested, if I had access to the information. So your arguement of the devs having a hard time providing the web service required is invalid.[/font][/color] [color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"][/quote][/font][/color] [font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"][size="2"] [/size][/font]I got that impression from your posts, my apologies. I am doing nothing to be with or against, only stating the facts. This won't change, we had a massive internal fight over it where person(s) who wanted it to happen stood against the rest of the team who did not. Trust me when I say there's a better chance of you getting struck by lightning 3 times in the same spot while winning both major US lotteries jackpots twice, all whilst the temperature in hell makes Alaska look like a tropical paradise. Yes, i will dash your play style to support theirs, because your play style (refusing to cooperate or work with others outside of known circle of friends) is a much smaller group of people. We are limiting to what the majority want, that is all. I am not trying to make this game like any other game, but like its own game. Note that I suggested that along with several other possibilities. Using it as if it were the only suggestion takes it out of context. You may not believe hiding the loot tables will or won't accomplish that, but the simple truth is it doesn't matter. No MMO does it, we're not going to do it. Like I said earlier, at best the system that contains it, and even that would be a hard sell amongst the team. No game provided a live db connection out of any of those links, we do, in that alone we set a precedent. EVE was the closest with the restricted API they provide to players. Yes, there be static dumps but if that's what you want try: [url="http://www.net-7.org/database"]http://www.net-7.org/database[/url] there's some aged static dumps there. I can't say anything about accuracy though since the game has changed so much since then. Er, if you're willing to do a database yourself, why spend time arguing for us to make it available and not just go do it? Oh wait, you might have to ask others unless you want to personally obtain every piece of loot in the game, right. We can continue for as long as you like, but it will be faster to make the database from known knowledge on your own than to convince us to provide it directly. [quote name='Gretl'] [color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]EA wasn't really annoyed to see that lots of databases gave the information during live.[/font][/color] [color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]I wonder what's now the prob.[/font][/color] [/quote] Nice attempt to twist, but neither are we Gretl, you're all welcome to make databases, you'll note however that EA did [b]not[/b] provide a direct link to their databases and if you contacted customer support about loot they would return the reply: "Maybe your fellow players could help you with this." or something remarkably similar. In regards to the rest of that post, rubbish. There's always at least two ways to get the info: 1) kill mobs until what you want drops 2) Ask other players. Giving you everything makes the game boring, if you want everything wait until we finish the server move and I'll bring up the PTR and you can go in and have access to dev commands and give yourselves whatever you want, see how quickly it becomes boring to do so. More players prefer the mystery and hunt of finding these items, also in regards to the Arsenal, that's because it's based on a db dump and not a live connection, it has never been updated, yet our mobs have because we have someone going through them correcting loot even today and they are slowly coming online with new loot changes in every patch. The portal site is one of our sites, it provides a db with a live connection, it cannot have exact info or as CDel said the game becomes robotic.

I notice you failed to mention anything about bribing another player for the information. Independence doesn't mean exclusivity, nor does asking or speaking to other players make it [b]required[/b] in all aspects of play. You make it seem as if its: 'You're either with us, or you're against us.' which is not the case. There's no challenge in asking someone to do it for you, I haven't indicated anything of asking someone to do it for you, only that you have the option to work hand-in-hand with other players. If you don't want to that's perfectly fine, but we're not going to provide a direct guide. You're welcome to make a database of your own to prevent others from having to look into it though, for that matter so is anyone else. The DB on portal is directly connected, it cannot be wrong, therefore it cannot have live locations otherwise there's no mystery and that's why some people play. We won't dash their playstyle on the rocks to support yours.

Eviticus, Nothing is stopping players from collecting and displaying the information, we won't say a word. This is in effect what wowhead is, a player collection. I'd be more than happy to see one. We just won't provide it FOR you as that DOES cheapen the game if we hand it to you on a platter. If you all find it by consensus, then it does not. That's the main difference here.

well.. to quote [quote name='A very wise, albeit fictional, man'] Who's more the fool? The fool, or the fool that follows him? [/quote] Seein' as the troll generally follows and provokes an emotional response, I suspect there'd be two different answers to that question.

This is probably long overdue, but please [b]try[/b] to keep this at least borderline civil. I'm enjoying myself reading and responding, but I must admit its distracting me from development work I could be doing right now.

I see now your last post about solo play bidoc, and I must say, I am generally a solo player myself when playing most games, but MMOs are designed for community and the [b]majority[/b] of content is geared that way, its also true in most other mmos. Why would we design content for a massively multiplayer game to be aimed at a solo player? Solo players in my day did it for the "challenge" of doing it alone, not just to avoid human contact.

[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301184033' post='37257'] Kyp, I do hope you don't think I'm asking for unrestricted access to the live db, or that I would even suggest a static dump should include player information. Still, I don't think mob locations with drops is too much to ask for. Let me try to explain. We all know that player made items are far superior to vendored and that all the good stuff is drop only. It is simply a very daunting task for most players to search thru the entire galaxy for that gun/shield/reactor/device and/or the component to build it. In fact, given the number of possibilities, by the time one locates the appropriate mob and actually gets it to drop the wanted item, one is well beyond the point of needing it, probably by several levels. So, by your action of making the item unattainable, you have rendered it useless and are making less use of your limited content. Now, if one knows at least generally, perhaps which system to search, and the possibility of getting it in time to actually use it, one has a self assigned quest to attain said item, in effect expanding the use of your limited content. Of course, the lower level items would be easier to find and acquire than the higher levels. I hope this explains my request. [/quote] Perhaps not, but live data is too much. You don't need it to play. You don't, we do. The dev staff does not want to share this information from our database and there's no precedent for doing so. The closest example to this was EVE's API which says and I quote: [quote name='Evelopedia'] [font="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"] [b]The API[/b] [font="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]The API is a way for people to get data from New Eden, and use it for application development. It allows you to check your skill queue, market orders, evemails, and other interesting data from your mobile phone and other platforms, not just the EVE Client/EVE Gate.[/font] [font="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]This is done by querying a CCP-hosted website, which talks (almost) directly to the database. This means that it offers a wide set of semi-live data.[/font] [/size][/font] [/quote] We understand that player-made items are superior, but at the same time this argument/explanation doesn't make sense in the overall scheme unless you refuse to work with other players. You can always ask others for help, you can work together with a guild, you can even bribe a fellow player for the information if you can't work WITH someone, or once someone has done so you can consult a website they've created to help. We have [b]taken no action[/b] to make any item unattainable except where it didn't appear until a certain stage of the storyline. We have also taken no action to [b]make it easily attainable[/b]. These two things as one comprise our position currently which is to say that we've done neither what you allege nor ruined the game for those that prefer exploration to find things. Now, if one could relinquish the dependence on websites over talking to fellow players you could find this stuff, and probably pretty easily. We do not wish to make the game impossibly easy by providing a means of getting all information in one spot, that's why we had Slayerman hide the drops on the db because previously it showed the mob it dropped from, the relative percentage, [b]AND[/b] the sector. This makes it a pinpoint, ho-hum kind of thing, whereas asking other players might net several possibilities. Understand that even though you may or may not be suggesting such access, we're still not going to provide down to the mob and sector where something drops at a glance. At best, if you could sway us we might show the system, which could contain many sectors (e.g. Aragoth system, which contains, Freya, odin rex, jotunheim, aragoth, etc.). If you want instant gratification, ask fellow players. Don't ask for a handout, we're all out of them.

I believe our documentation (being some of the original stuff we got from the real original devs so long ago) stated that only a Tradesman class could have build components, not that this has to be law, but I will go verify that. Like I said, not that I'm not open to suggestions. They just have to be sound.

[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301181321' post='37245'] So, in effect, you're saying, I'm the boss, I'm gonna do it my way and if you don't like it, there's the door. Kind of reminds me of someone... initials EA [/quote] not really, just reinforcing a decision that has already been made by the team. You're welcome to make some arguments against it, but you're going to have to do some more research, because so far it hasn't been that close to the mark. [quote name='Tyran'] [color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]I like your stubbornness, on an unrelated note is that why the TS is going to have build engines together with the TT and TW? Back to here, you did ask this earlier:[/font][/color] [/quote] Hey, I'm not the one who's a glutton for punishment here. You're making it too easy. Yes, the TS will have build engine because engines are what Terrans are good at. Until we have a point where we make changes to the new classes it will remain as is. That's not to say I don't listen to suggestions, I just don't implement them unless they are sound. Giving them build reactors (as suggested by some) is fail, because Terrans don't know the first thing about reactors or energy management, that was their weakness. In regards to the latter: Ok, perhaps if you want to twist my original words out of context this is a fit, but otherwise not really since it's a player maintained wiki hosted by the company on their server. [quote name='Bidoc'] [color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,][color=#000000][size=2][b][url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=37247"][img]https://forum.enb-emulator.com/public/style_images/terran-new/snapback.png[/img][/url]Maniac, on 26 March 2011 - 07:22 PM, said:[/b][/size][/color] [size=2]Your not getting the whole point that he was saying. Lets view it this way, only the [b]minority[/b] wants the database open. [/size] You're making an unfounded assumption there. I see both support and dissent here. [/font][/color] [/quote] He might be, but I'm not, the last time this [i][b]suggestion[/b][/i] came up, albeit then with a firebrand poster who attempted to call us out we received plenty of private communications that said basically that they agreed with us but didn't want to become embroiled in it publicly. In any case, no game does it from the company making it to the players, we're certainly not going to set that precedent. I still haven't seen a valid example of even one company that directly provided a live connection of data, the closest was that dump snapshot for eve on the dev wiki you had in your first response, but I know for a fact EVE doesn't offer live DB access, you can through an API access details about only your account, and stats of your guild, in fact the API site tells you that.. You can't get info about other players, which you could with a fully unrestricted connection to that db. I don't get the desire for a full database, it completely devalues at least 1/3 of the gameplay.

[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301176992' post='37234'] Ok, for eve here are 2 player developed apps that do access the live database. [url="http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/EFT"]http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/EFT[/url] [url="http://evemon.battleclinic.com/"]http://evemon.battleclinic.com/[/url] You should all remember, this is a suggestion with an endless number of permutations. So you don't want ALL drop locations known. Do you want ALL drop locations hidden? Also, y'all are ignoring the rest of the post. I also suggested there should be more drops of many items and better quality to some. [/quote] First, stop using EVE as an example, they offer an API that allows [b]limited[/b] access not a direct connection. They've been doing that for a year or two now. We don't want [b]any[/b] drop locations being known from the live database, at least not by our hand. I didn't ignore half your original post, as I stated previously, we're about 50% of teh way through repopulating the mobs with corrected loot, and will balance from there. [font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2][quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1301177147' post='37235'] A wiki is open to anyone by it's very nature. You are mixing up the obvious because you have a hard time admitting defeat Can't you at least admit that the creator endorses it by hosting it and therefore you are [s]pwnt[/s] a little mistaken? [/quote] By the very nature of that argument, you fail. The request was for US to provide this information. We're not going to do it. I didn't argue with the fact that the creator hosted, in fact I agreed with you above that it was "official" but pointed out that by their own about page, which you so kindly linked they said they don't touch it, its entirely the player base. Nice try though.[/size][/font]

aha, but this is an important distinction, Maniac hit on it. Out of a gun, projectiles travel very quickly, but can only cover short distances, effectively (Like a Dwarf, if you've paid attention to Gimli on the LOTR movies) Projectile range is about 5k Out of an ML/Silo missiles start out slowly but have those guidance systems and rocket propulsion to speed them up to a maximum speed along their flight path. Missile range is up to about 9k I think, if set up properly at least that was the way in live. I haven't played around enough with it yet since we've not gotten into balancing.

[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1301175811' post='37228'] Maniac, I've turned on the kettle cuz ur about to get a warm cup of PWN. See this [url="http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Wiki:About"]link[/url]. It says: In what way is hosting a wiki NOT endorsing loot locations and other game info being available for everyone? Yeah that's right, down boy, down. [/quote] Is he really going to receive that PWN? He said it wasn't official, in that much he's wrong but at the same time you contended that [b]THEY[/b] updated it when I see here the words: [quote name='Guild Wars Wiki'] [font="sans-serif"][size="2"] [b]What is this website about?[/b] [b]Guild Wars Wiki[/b] is the official English language [url="http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/wiki"]wiki[/url] for [url="http://www.guildwars.com/"]Guild Wars[/url]. It is hosted by [url="http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/ArenaNet"]ArenaNet[/url] for the Guild Wars community [b]to be managed and shaped by the community.[/b] [/quote][/size][/font] [font="sans-serif"] [/font] [font="sans-serif"][size="2"]Note the part towards the end that's bolded.[/size][/font]

[url="http://wiki.eve-id.net/CCP_Database_Dump_Resources"]http://wiki.eve-id.net/CCP_Database_Dump_Resources[/url] That's the first link. Static means unchanging, this is not a live link. Also, anytime you see the word "dump" that's a snapshot, dumps are what we used to have publicly available before any tinkering with story began. 2nd link leads me to a forum thread under community projects for Vendetta Online that someone asks the question and 4-5 people say it isn't possible, at least not yet. Then the author clarifies that he or she wants to access an external database. [url="http://www.startrekonline-credits.com/startrekonlineitemsdb/"]http://www.startrekonline-credits.com/startrekonlineitemsdb/[/url] (3rd party db) [url="http://n4g.com/news/504389/mmorpg-star-trek-online-captains-database-launched"]http://n4g.com/news/504389/mmorpg-star-trek-online-captains-database-launched[/url] (probably ought to read the content of this link closer, I suspect you just searched via google) [color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,] [/font][/color] [color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,]Neverwinter Nights may not qualify as a true mmorpg since all servers are player hosted, but the entire db is installed with the game and modifiable by anyone wishing to. There is a very large community dedicated to doing so."[/font][/color] No, it's multiplayer, but not mass multiplayer. I am aware of how it works having been a modder for it in the past. Data from this is unique to each "server" that is running, but there are no databases, per se, just a lot of recorded info behind the scenes, scripts that perform functions based on character location and so on. [color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,] [/font][/color] [color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,]Is the really a mass market mmo, or a fan based effort to revive an old favorite? [/font][/color] [color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,] [/font][/color] No, I guess not for the moment, but its our intent to run it like one because we want to build the user base back up. We can sit and compare all day, apples to oranges and so on but this WAS a mass market MMORPG, and out of the ones you've listed above EVE and STO would be considered the same. We're going to run it this way regardless unless the community decides we're not doing it right and leaves, so far we've received fairly positive feedback on most of the things we're doing.

Yeah those are intended effects, they were never a problem, per se.

[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301169327' post='37213'] huh? what "both" courses are you refering to? [quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1301169327' post='37212'] [color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,]3) We're not making loot locations known from a live database connection, as previously stated you're more than welcome to develop your own resources but no live and professional game does this, neither shall we. It is an unrealistic expectation for anyone to think otherwise. Knowing where and how to get everything is boring to most people.[/font][/color] [/quote] not true, there are several games with live access to their db but... ok, how about making the db available for download and outside developement? [/quote] You were talking about always taking the easy path and not knowing the solution. Make both paths look hard, and the player will choose one and try and even though its harder they will probably succeed anyway resulting in a more rewarding play experience. Really? Name 3 examples, with links to data offered by the creator, this is certainly a very new behavior of any mass market mmo I know. Wow doesn't do it, and they all copy wow nowadays just about, so let's see it. To answer the latter question, sure but it'll be blank structure only with enough data needed to make the server boot when we do. I assume that's ok with everyone since it's all that would be provided in any other project.

Precisely.

Bidoc, 1) I do, make both courses rocky and appear to be difficult to tread, then they will choose one and try it. 2) The loot tables are not "nerfed" they're not all in as intended yet. We're about 50% through the way of implementing them based on real data. What you guys have hunted for the last two years has been the result of us just going through and [b]randomly[/b] populating the mobs with items. 3) We're not making loot locations known from a live database connection, as previously stated you're more than welcome to develop your own resources but no live and professional game does this, neither shall we. It is an unrealistic expectation for anyone to think otherwise. Knowing where and how to get everything is boring to most people.

Aye, that it is, but that's an instance of matching live. We had data for the drop. It may be adjusted later, but for now it will remain where it is until we take care of other stuff. Good luck on getting the drop with your next kill!

[quote name='LPCA' timestamp='1300815873' post='37029'] - try manually replacing the URL. - enforce a no-redirect. - use local hosts to change IP address. [/quote] wouldn't work I don't think, Admin was in a different location on IPB 2.x.x. i'll give it a shot tho. Slayer: Given that we haven't paid for that box in that long, something in me doubts they've got it enabled for a remote RDP, and if by some chance they do, we've changed the admin box password at least twice since then.

Slayer, *I* still have an admin account logging in through that link, alas it seems to redirect me to the current ACP. I'll ask him to try it and see if he gets any different results than I did.