Daath

  Thanks Pakkrat, the unwashed masses are getting stronger, this raid turn-out was awesome, I think people are starting to get in the groove and in a few more weeks we'll be doing pretty good I think.  GoBB was a lot of fun and we had had a diverse showing, many from small guilds and solo players.. just what I wanted to see.   The only issue with the Big-3 in these pubby raids are the loot concerns... We'll take all the help we can get but because many of the pubbies haven't had many chances at these items the Big-3 are not allowed to bid in our lottos... That was set down by the guild leaders and I think for good reason... but we'll always take the help when/if it is offered.  Especially as we move through this first cycle of raids in the rotation... As we get more experience and some toons up to speed for their roles it will get easier.

Gizard many of these people offered classes that we didn't need so I asked them to bring classes we DID need... do you want me to exclude them from bidding on the items they WANT because we didn't need them to bring that class?  If we do that then we don't get support toons, we get a bunch of PWs ... that won't work...   Also, if you think you can fairly accommodate both the raid needs v.s. the looting distribution, make suggestions... I am not setting these rules, I am SUGGESTING them... because there ARE NONE at this point..   So by all means lets discuss what YOU think is better and see if that would work...   I think it also only fair that I mention this.... This was our .. 3rd? 4th? Public raid and by far the most diverse group we've had... Up to now we've had large contingents of Big-3 members supporting us, so this was the biggest rolls we've seen yet.... We have a lot of kinks to work out and this is how it will happen.... WE do the raid, sort the loot, lotto it, make mistakes, learn from them... do the next raid...   It is a work in progress, so please be patient with us, we'll make mistakes and do our best to correct for them... after a few of these we'll get it down better and an established protocol will form.. but that doesn't happen in 2 or 3 raids..

The Saga of the wayward Black Spitter 9....   Investigating this I found that StealthyTS traded his Spitter to Ravina for the Black Power 8 Reactor....   Ravina is a member of Builders Inc, but has been gone from the game until 2 days ago and was not fully aware of the nuances of these public raids and his guild's rules against bidding for their members.   Ravina volunteered to surrender the disputed gun to me to resolve issues and sore feelings... Though in his defense I offer that he rarely gets to do the big raids due to limited play time, so I understand his eagerness to join a public raid that happened when he could join.  But because of this rule we can expect little or no support from big guild members in future raids, which is unfortunate... The way I see it, if a player needs the items in a raid, can raid and is willing to jump in, they should be on equal footing in public raids.  Their own conscience and sense of fair play should dictate their actions on the bid.     I now have this Black Spitter 9 and I will be trying to contact the other bidders and try to orchestrate a re-roll for the item when possible.  But that may be hard because I don't see many of them often.    The following people either did not win any other item in the raid bids and are not members of any large guild as far as I know.. They are the ones I will be contacting for this re-roll..   Proconsul Gizardpuke Merchant Prince Charlenett Proconsul Toetotoe Admiral Syberfly

Log of Rolls for GOBB on 11 December 2013 with notes (Why I wrote this guide) There needs to be self-control, people can't just bid on everything.... But >I< cannot know who has what alts and who can or cannot use an item.  Some of these people bidding on items brought specific toons that I asked them to bring.    These are all the items... the "PS from BI that got a Spitter" I don't know who that is.     (2):19:34:42  Merchant Prince DaathTT: XUP For Black Spitter 9 -------------------- XUP   (2):19:34:46  Proconsul Gizardpuke: x   (2):19:34:46  Merchant Prince Partsmen: x   (2):19:34:47  Proconsul Ravina: x   (2):19:34:48  Proconsul FitreoPW: x   (2):19:34:48  Elite Ranger StealthyTS: x   (2):19:34:49  Merchant Prince Charlenett: x   (2):19:34:52  Proconsul Toetotoe: x   (2):19:34:54  Admiral Syberfly: x   (2):19:35: 7  Admiral Lojik: x   (2):19:35:12  Merchant Prince DaathTT: I see 9   (4):19:35:26  DaathTT has generated a number between 1 and 9: 1 <-  I accidentally sent roll to group   (2):19:35:28  Merchant Prince DaathTT: <- has generated a number between 1 and 9: 5 (§)   (2):19:35:34  Merchant Prince DaathTT: Stealthy TS   (0):19:38: 2  COMPUTER: TRADE: [1] 'Black Spitter' from 'DaathTT' to 'StealthyTS'     (2):19:36:11  Merchant Prince DaathTT: XUP for Pegleg 9, ------------------------ XUP   (2):19:36:15  Merchant Prince Partsmen: x   (2):19:36:15  Proconsul FitreoPW: x   (2):19:36:15  Proconsul Ravina: x   (2):19:36:15  Merchant Prince Charlenett: x   (2):19:36:17  Ken'shao Zargas: x   (2):19:36:19  Admiral Lojik: x   (2):19:36:23  Admiral Syberfly: x   (2):19:36:49  Merchant Prince DaathTT: ok I see 7   (2):19:36:55  Merchant Prince DaathTT: <- has generated a number between 1 and 7: 2 (§)   (2):19:37:18  Merchant Prince DaathTT: FitreoPW   (2):19:38:22  Merchant Prince DaathTT: XUP Black Power 9, ------------------------- XUP   (2):19:38:25  Proconsul Ravina: x   (2):19:38:29  Merchant Prince Partsmen: x   (2):19:38:30  Admiral Syberfly: x   (2):19:38:49  Ken'shao Zargas: x   (2):19:39: 9  Merchant Prince DaathTT: I see 4   (2):19:39:42  Merchant Prince DaathTT: <- has generated a number between 1 and 4: 2 (§)   (2):19:39:46  Merchant Prince DaathTT: Partsmen   (0):19:40: 7  COMPUTER: TRADE: [1] 'Black Power IX' from 'DaathTT' to 'Partsmen'   (2):19:40:20  Merchant Prince DaathTT: XUP Black Power 8, ---------------------------- XUP   (2):19:40:24  Proconsul Ravina: x   (2):19:40:38  Admiral Syberfly: x   (2):19:40:40  Elite Ranger Buckeye: x   (2):19:40:40  Merchant Prince Actionmat: x   (2):19:41: 1  Merchant Prince DaathTT: I see 4   (2):19:41:24  Merchant Prince DaathTT: <- has generated a number between 1 and 4: 1 (§)   (2):19:41:30  Merchant Prince DaathTT: Ravina   (0):19:41:48  COMPUTER: TRADE: [1] 'Black Power VIII' from 'DaathTT' to 'Ravina'   (2):19:43:16  Merchant Prince DaathTT: Black Speed 9 engine ------------------------------ XUP   (2):19:43:56  Admiral Lojik: x   (2):19:44: 6  Merchant Prince DaathTT: I see ONE for BS9 engine   (2):19:44:20  Merchant Prince DaathTT: I will hold for Lojik ***NOTE THIS ROLL WENT WRONG: Why? Because I was being hit with (I counted 27 PMs over the FIRST roll right then and I messed up the roll because of it, when I checked the log I noticed that StrykTT had bid twice on this item and he was #1   (2):19:44:29  Merchant Prince DaathTT: Black Speed 8 Engine ----------------------------------- XUP?   (2):19:45:50  Merchant Prince StrykTT: x   (2):19:46:12  Merchant Prince Actionmat: x   (2):19:47: 0  Ken'shao Zargas: x   (2):19:47: 5  Merchant Prince StrykTT: x   (2):19:48:10  Merchant Prince DaathTT: ok 3   (2):19:48:48  Merchant Prince DaathTT: <- has generated a number between 1 and 3: 3 (§)   (0):19:49:34  COMPUTER: TRADE: [1] 'Black Speed VIII' from 'DaathTT' to 'StrykTT'

I agree, the big guild members shouldn't bid... But I can't always be held responsible for knowing who is in what guild... so the guilds will have to enforce that from their end, we just can't be expected to keep track of all of that... If a guild member bid on an item that they should not have, then it is up to that guild's leadership to deal with it appropriately and decide what to do about the contested item.  We, the public, are powerless really to do much about it... so take it up with the guild leadership please.

Another note about bidding for alts... I have received a few PMs about this so I want to clear this up some more....   Tonight we did GOBB raid.. I had many people offer their PWs for the raid but we didn't need their PWs as much as we needed their TTs.  I can't ask them NOT to bid on the Spitter because they brought what I asked them to, not their PW.... That is basically what it comes down to... we can't be expected to keep track of all of that, open bidding may be much less chance to get the higher demand items for those who actually flew their PWs in the raid, but I can't ask them to stand down bidding for the items because they did what we asked for the sake of getting the right toons on the ground.

If all you are displaying is the toon name, meh... But a "private" switch the avatar settings would fix that...

The problem with non trade loot is the expire time on the corpse... so if you bid on a non-trade PW item, for example, that PW better be in sector.  Since you will have to login a secondary toon to get the item you need to let the looter know what is going on BEFORE or the confusion/delay could cost you the item.   Fortunately there aren't very many non-trade items in these raids... Also the organizers may establish restrictions on this as they see fit.. but there really is only one reason to restrict the non-trades and that is the time it takes for the corpse to expire.

We've recently been added to the rotation as a Public entity for the big raids.. After organizing and participating in several of these raids recently it became apparent some guidelines are necessary to make things run smoothly with assembling and executing the raids as well as loot distribution afterward.  I will try here to address most of those, please make comments and posts to this thread for your suggestions and issues and I'll try to address them. This is a guideline and not by any means a set of rules to be taken as sacred writ.  Organizers of the actual raid may or may not follow these guidelines but I hope they will keep things on a similar tone for anyone participating. ORGANIZERS: When preparing groups for the raids it is best that the raid have a single organizer, this allows for better coordination.  This person is responsible for several aspects of the raid: - Getting the word out... Contacting people via open channels (General or New Players) and friends list.  Also is OK to ask big guild members/leaders to help out if needed but the participants from those big 3 guilds must be reminded that all three guilds have recommended that their members not participate in Loot lotto. - Setting up the IN-GAME channel.  A private channel is good for this, not everyone uses TeamSpeak and it is necessary that every participant in the raid use the same channel for communication so the attack can be coordinated better and the loot lotto can be conducted in a way that all can see the rolls. - Establish the looting rules for the raid BEFORE it begins.  There are several ways this can be done, but the most common, agreed upon way is described in section THREE of this post. - Coordinate and assemble groups.  For this reason the organizer must ask people to bring the right classes of toons in the right numbers to the raid.  Most of the primary rotation raids require 3 groups and can be composed differently based on the Organizer's strategy of attack.   - Communicate clearly and effectively the damage type needed for classes participating, RD base has different recommended damage types than say GoBB or Controller.  For this reason the Organizer should be very familiar with the raid being conducted.   - Establish the Looter.  This person must be a trusted player that can collect the loot properly and handle the lotto for non-trade items that drop during the raid.   1. Preparation The big raids are on timers and pop up about every 2 days.  Depending on which raid is up for which week it will determine what classes are needed to support the raid and which configurations we'll need in the groups to succeed. When you see the notice on GENERAL or New Player channel that a raid is forming ask the person making the announcement what is needed.   TT, TE, PW and JD form the core components of raid groups.  TTs can be substituted with JS or PP as possible but not always as desired as a TT.  TT has the shield capacity and healing skills most wanted for raids.  TE is good for Hack/Biorepress and PW is of course the tank.  Often PWs are needed to drive groups and should be able to take agro and hold it as much as possible.  JDs are for summon and reactor charge, the Summon Skill and Energy Leech is critical here and they are a fundamentally necessary class for most raids.   If you are unfamiliar with how to run your toon for a raid, contact me and I'll do what I can to help you setup before hand, others like EpicGamers guild and such can also be a good preparation resource.   If at all possible stage your toon near the raid location, these take a lot of time to build groups and start, so if the toons are close by it will speed this process up tremendously. 2. Communication It is advised to participate in a listening capacity on TeamSpeak at least, to hear the "chatter" this allows you to anticipate what is going on and learn from the other raiders what is good/bad technique.   A private channel (100) is often used, these channels have a limit of 16 participants, so please do not login 5 alts to the channel for a raid, others need it too.  This channel will be announced at the time for the raid to organize and form. 3.  Looting Often raid organizers will establish a looter, drivers of the groups will use /credit kill <name> to give loot rights from their groups to that person.  They will loot everything for the most part and will be responsible for the items looted, some items are non-trade and those items should NOT be looted by the designated looter as they will need to be lottoed off somehow before the corpse disappears. Looters should be familiar with the loot and make it know what is being looted from bosses and such so the people can understand what is being pulled out of the raids... 4. Lotto For public raids this is hard to control.  There are disputes as to who can bid on what for these lotto processes.  The Big 3 guilds have a rule in place with their members that their members participating are not authorized to bid on raid loot from public raids.  This is a rule from the guilds, not from us.  The big 3 guilds have placed this rule to allow more people access to the items dropped and they see themselves as support for the raids, not participants, since they have their own weeks in the rotation.  But again, this is imposed by the guilds, we don't always know who is in what guild and it is not our responsibility to enforce that.   Use your conscience and sense of fair play as a guide when bidding.  If you have UberLoot Item IX, then you may want to refrain from bidding on that item to allow someone else a better chance.  We don't know who has what and we rely on an honor system to determine who should or should not bid. The consensus for authorized bids is not set in stone and the organizer should state any specifics BEFORE the raid begins.  This will avoid major disputes over the rolls.  The recommended methods are documented here but they are not fixed.   The lotto method us usually one of two systems.  The X-UP method or the All /random method... The Organizer may choose which system is used and will have to make sure that the method of rolling is communicated to all before the first item is bid upon (Before the raid if non-trade items are going to drop) PARTICIPANT ROLL:   This roll is for loot that is class/race specific items (i.e. L9 beam weapons are for Jenquai, etc) The avatar that participated the raid is given priority, however if a person wanted to bring their JD and was asked to bring their TT instead they must declare before the raid beings their intent to roll for a specific item/alt even though their participating avatar cannot use the item.  (EXAMPLE:  [100] DaathJD: I was asked to bring my JD but I wish to roll on the UberPL IX for my PW if it drops" ) This allows everyone to know, in advance, what the intentions are.  The ORGANIZER is responsible to keep track of these substitutions. If an item is put up for bid for the PARTICIPANT ROLL and is not desired by anyone in that category then it is made an OPEN roll.  Refer to non-trade and trade loot sections below for more information about these drops. PLEASE DO NOT BID ON ITEMS YOUR MAIN or YOUR ALT AVATARS CANNOT USE.  It is unfair to the participants of the raid that NEED/DESIRE these items to see them traded on [Market] imediately after the raid.   OPEN ROLL: Some items are able to be used by any class, these items can be rolled on by any participant. This may also be an item that is race specific but has been passed over by the priority particpants in a raid.   NON TRADE loot: These items MUST be bid on by the participants of the raid, bringing an alt from Antares to get an item is not going to work.  If you PLAN on bidding on an item for a particular toon, make sure that toon is IN SECTOR.  Please declare your intention to bid on an item for an ALT before the lotto begins.  In the end the person conducting the lotto does not have the knowledge of everyone's alts, so we again ask you to be guided by a sense of fair play.   TRADE loot: Items can be bid on by any class, even if the class of toon used in the raid cannot use it.  Please declare your intention to bid on these potential items for an non-participating avatar BEFORE THE RAID BEGINS. The lotto process may be different depending on who is conducting the lotto, there are several methods, please pay attention to the raid organizers and follow the rules they establish at the time.   NOTE TO BIG 3 Guild Members, Static, VGE and Builder's INC: To my knowledge your guild leadership has placed a restriction on your participation in "PUG" or "Public" raids of this type.  You are allowed to assist, organize and participate, but you are not allowed to bid.  It is my understanding this is because they feel it is necessary for fairness to allow non-guild and small guild people more of a chance to obtain these items and get something from the raid.  If you disagree with this rule, please take it up with your leadership.  We will do our best to see that the leadership decisions from these guilds are kept but we hold YOU responsible to declare it openly in text or teamspeak and refrain from bidding on the lotto for the major raid items. Please post your comments and I'll append/revise this as necessary to reflect the public desire for guidance.

Actually the PS comes down to a style choice for prospectors...   There are some high level prospecting content areas where the PS excels and they are very effective at solo play in most fields at the higher level end.  Unlike JE which is able to get into these areas a much lower level (OL100) with Combat cloak and good eq, the PS must be more fully developed but is more than capable.  Menace and L9 guns make the PS very capable to take down guards of fields and prospect.   PS has a few reactor issues with warp/mine as well as the lack of insta-warp like JE and TS makes it slower, but in a grav well under thrusters (NoS + A good low-sig L8 engine) is very effective.   TS is my least favorite prospecting class, primarily because it can warp/mine but the reactor issues kill her effectiveness.   Lastly ammunition (PS/TS) is a major detractor with prospectors, because of that one factor JE reigns supreme in effectiveness, yes but PS and TS are viable just requires a little different application of style to make them effective in many cases.   Oh and I'd like to add, PS can take an L9 Pop rock in the face at less than 1K range and walk away smelling like a rose... JE/TS would be a floating hunk of debris in that case...

Some of that is in place, the missions from Adriel are supposed to be for that purpose... though I don't know where the construction of Antares station falls in the content development framework it would be nice to have some more facilities there, such as a build terminal and such... It is one of the most popular sectors for mid-high level combat and the lack of a build terminal causes some issues. 

LOL yea, now I feel old..

I looked briefly through the posts and did not see this.. but it could be fun if the WebDevs wanted to play with it....   Top 10 lists... i.e.   Top 10 builders (Number of Prints, not builds. Maybe do both? I would also exclude comp/ammo just keep it to engine, reactor, device, weapon and shield builders?) Top 10 of each class, (OL+Bonus SP = Level Equiv) Top 10 Explorers (EL Dings If there is a way to determine how many over-level dings a person got in a XP type) Top 10 Traders (TL Dings Again if there is a way to query that) Top 10 Killers (Combat Dings)   In end-game content this could provide a little friendly banter/competition among the long-term players. A little bragging rights and some way to compare who is the best person to ask for help with a particular aspect of the game... If you are a new JE maybe asking one of the Top 10 for advice is good... We are a small community at this point and it would be fun to see who stacks up where....   Could be fun...

It would suffice it to say that there is no such list and rightfully so.  If you want to know who the leadership is of a guild you should ask your guild leaders, who most likely knows them, or members of that guild. 

I hope this reboot fixes for the sake of the GMs

This is probably very very true.. Just not enough people doing each layer of production/farming and those not willing to do it all themselves. There are a few small areas where this sort of works a bit but not enough to fuel an actual economic machine pre se.

That would work.... indeed. Dunno if they can do that, but would be nice to reduce lag in those two sectors.. although I have noticed it is better?

I don't know about a GoBB raid being done, but I know an attempt was made at RD base, faction issues stopped it in its tracks, so people are working on their faction issues for another attempt..

This was the last major post from Static on the issue, and it clearly states that "Static Members are asked not to attend those public week raids".  Which is fine, BI at least as offered to assist in organizing and formation of these raids. As for any loot restrictions imposed by the big 3 on members in attendance I don't know anything about that.  But to my understanding most of the people helping us with this have most of the items they want from these raids already so it is really a moot point. 

Good to know... And a relief.. Thank you for the clarification!

In many cases just finding the mob alive is luck... even better when it drops the pride.. I've gotten a few of them but my routine is to check them VERY late at night and often I get luckier in those hours.

As of right now, this isn't the case... we are just discussing the bounds of potential or future increase in these costs based on the extreme levels we saw for that one day and how it effected players.  As of this moment the prices have returned to what they were before the patch, which is a very nominal cost.   For Example my cost for a button click in Bile ammo is about 1700 credits which is nothing at all.    It seems that there is a general feeling the costs will go up again at some point in the future and for myself I am worried it will be in the same neighborhood as it was after the patch.    The consensus seems to be that super high Ammunition costs are disproportionate to player that use ammo extensively if they are too great and would result in the abandonment of certain classes like PW because of their cost of operation v.s. Jenquai which would have an operation cost of ZERO if you exclude equipment costs.   Ammunition is already very tedious to produce and to have costs so high that it requires money farming in order to operate would just add another level of monotony to an already detailed process, in effect creating a time sink v.s. increasing the value of credits.

trigger is up now.. just need to get people online for a go at it... still very early yet...

Exactly my point... I run Jenquai most of the time, so they don't have ammo costs at all.. they put it in their hold it is profit.. PW does not have that luxury...

Between my soon-to-be 8 150 toons I have about 1.2 billions credits... At the costs before y'all fixed it, the build cost at about 1mil per stack of Bile ammo (which is raid drop only and hard for me to get since I don't get to raid regularly) and given the income based on the hold space in my PW/PP pairing I could just about break even, if all I killed were mobs that dropped L9 loot.. Now if I raid it costs me about 5 Stacks of Bile ammo for a simple gate raid.. and I will get nothing back for that except an item or something, MAYBE, and some comps. For the amount of time I actually PLAY the progens that may not be a big deal since I routinely play my JE and JD and they bring in a good amount.... But I look at the players that have a single PW and wonder, how will this effect them? So I ran a test.. With just my PW... it cost me more to make ammo at 1.1 mil a stack than I could bring in on the PW (build ammo, run out to Paramis, Kill Gene Hunters until ammo gone, sell loot) I found my self in a depleting curve... each time I went out I could afford one fewer stacks of ammo... So 1 mil + for ammo on a PW is not going to work... you will kill the PWs.. Because without ammo they are in bad shape..