Warrior Class Balance

[Whitelighter]

Last few days I've seen this conversation come up a lot in-game. Thought we could get a discussion going here instead and see what becomes of it.

*I noticed part of this post comes across as a calling-out the DEVs post, I'm not sure why but I wasn't aiming for that lol*

Currently there is a massive unbalance between the PW, JD and TE. The former is on the chopping block to get a nerf in the name of balance, while the latter two are receiveing buffs and will continue to do so when everything is said and done. Simply put anything a PW can do solo, a JD and TE can do as well and then go do things a PW cannot.

I will say part of the problem is some changes in the EMU that weren't there in LIVE. Namely the higher Quality on drops and drops being more common than in LIVE. The other issue causing it is changes made to make the game "better".

Combat Cloak was broken so it was 'fixed'; but now you either take zero damage if cloak beats the mob firing on you, or you only take 50% damage if the mob fires but you cloak before the damage lands. This has lead to Jenquai (JD in paticular) to abuse the system to solo things they shouldn't be able too. And they will only get stronger as more of their items start working. Picture the current JD with a coma device that works, and some other situational debuffs working too. Nothing will stop a JD then. Blind the friends, and burn down one mob while active cloaking. It is a pretty scary thought honestly.

TEs are also above a PW in solo play. Some of this is attributed to their class design of long range, and they simply out-range mobs. The rest of it is do to Hellbores, Castors, Smiters and Stings being more common now than they were in live. Plus the buffing of Hack to long range is a factor in this. I personally don't play a TE, hopefully someone that does, or has a TE alt, can give an honest opinion on them.

That leaves a PW. To me the PW is the class in MMOs that starts out really strong, but once every gears up that gap closes, then they are no longer the strongest class. That is ok to me, have seen it in many MMOs. The problem is the PW is slated to receive some slight nerfs (or major ones depending on what path is chosen) in the name of "game balance".

I'm sorry that is a cop-out. If game balance was/is truely the focus why not wait and balance everyone together? Why continue to give buffs to TE/JD when they are already more powerful than a PW, at the things that are the reason for PWs nerfing? Just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm fine with the PW being the designated tank and not doing the most DPS, it shouldn't have the best of both. I'm fine with the JD being the glass-cannon, and the TE being the kiter. I'm not fine with one class being singled out for doing things while others do that and more while still getting stronger. I firmly believe no class should be able to solo end-game content. And if thats the view of the DEVs then I agree, as will most players. But I think you should stick to it and hold ALL classes to that view. Not just one or two...

[DarkkHero]

These are all important and complicated issues.

Lots of changes coming soon.

Please be patient.

[C Del[IS]]

Please keep in mind that the game is still very much incomplete. We have the problem of the three new classes to contend with, and even the original classes and items are not yet restored to how they were during live. I think most, if not all, of the devs would agree with you that the end-game content should be far from solo-able, and that's not the direction in which we're headed.

The bottom line is that the game is still being worked on; we're not quite in Alpha yet, so it is to be expected that things will be unbalanced and/or broken. For instance, Hack is useless, compulsory contemplation isn't even started, etc. Everything will be balanced with time, and the PW isn't going to be majorly nerfed, but brought to the power level it should be at. This may seem like a nerf because the other classes are still unbalanced, but as we progress, they'll all line up appropriately.

[kemperor1]

I agree entirely that the classes all need some loving and/or nerfing. I also realize that you can't very well wait 'til you have all the balancing ready and throw it in one patch as that would be entirely too much to deal with at once. However, "fixing" (ok it really is fixing in the grand scheme of things) one class at a time is going to make the class effected, the pw in this case, feel like they're getting a raw deal if the other classes aren't being nerfed and/or are being buffed, hence Whitelighter's statement. I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's going to feel like certain classes are getting more love than others for a while and it will eventually all balance out to where the devs and community feel that it should be. I do hope that there is a way to get all of this stuff done without making people feel like the odd man out. I certainly wouldn't want to be the odd man out, like when cloak was completely nerfed for a day or two, and I definitely wouldn't want to see anyone get turned off by a nerf to the point of quitting, or "boycotting" a certain class, or anything like that. I don't see how this can be accomplished, but hopefully some devs and community members do. Long story short, we're all going to get some nerfing and we're all going to get some loving one way or another. It might suck for some people at some times, and other people at other times, but we'll get there eventually.

[Whitelighter]

I agree every class is gonna get a nerf and a buff here and there. Just part of playing an MMO. What I'm getting at is right now, PW is being looked at. Ok fine, sap was a little overpowered I've agreed with that all along. But to put it bluntly, the track record leads players to believe that if the PW is balanced this month it will be 2-3 months before the next class is even considered for balancing. During that time the other 2 overpowered classes will be able to run wild. I know the standerd arguement is its free, no one gets paid and all that. But you cant just disregard standard MMO processes because of that.

If 2 or 3 classes are dominating the game all of those need adjustments made. If you leave one as-is it will be able to do anything it wants. People, and these are people that have played a PW for a long time, are starting to give up and get tired of being slaughtered by TEs and JDs on stuff they shouldn't be (not going to drive into the whole issue). Now they are rerolling to TEs and JDs. I probably sounds all doom and gloom, but the basic facts of an MMO has always been if a class is left overpowered long enough, you'll have nothing but that class being played.

If all else fails and you don't want go this route, atleast fix group kill credit so these single classes cant use their advantage to take boss kills from groups. Atleast that would be a temporary fix to part of the issue.

Btw hack is not useless, it doesn't land everytime because if it did that from 8k away it would be REALLY overpowered. If it lands on the right system (system hack or multihack) then its crippling to the mob. Hack should have its drawbacks to use. It shouldn't be a spam from 8k away until it lands move. 2k or 3k was great, TE had to give up his kiting to use it, trading one thing for another. If its ok for the TE, why can't my nerfed Shield Sap have a 6k or 7k range?

[dumbo]

You hit on part of the problem, the high % items are way OP compared to the other items in the game. Lets say player x got his equipment several months ago and its 100%, through a couple deaths some may even be below 100%. Player y just hit 140 and lv9 weapons, he goes on a raid and gets a shiny new FOTM that is below 100%, very common drop atm to be below 100. Player Z through hard work, being guild master, just being plain lucky or greedy, whatever the case has equipment over 150%.

There is a large difference in equipment that player x and y has compared to player z. I think it was you Whitelighter that came up with the idea of lowering the OP equipment on a sliding scale. To me that's what it needs in the name of game balance.

Now, as far as JDs go I agree nothing should be able to solo End Game raid bosses, some bosses yes, this was possible in live, but not raid bosses. My problem as far as JD goes is if you nerf Cloak with Coma not working you severely gimp the JD.

To the TEs, the Devs have already severely nerfed TEs with the reset of mobs the range they have gave them and linked mobs. Take a TE to Cooper and see how long it stays alive. Cooper mobs were not linked like this in live the way I remember it.

Now to PWs, IMO the PW with 6 guns and Lv9 Shields, Shield Sap, should be the DPS king of the game. Although I will say the JD should challenge this. The TE because of the kite ability should be close but not the other twos equal.

As far everyone making the same toon, I don't believe it will happen because of the 3 different play styles of the toons. Some people find the PW boring, the JD too much work, and the TE they just don't like. Of course all this is JMO, and is debatable. I believe we should discuss these views as this game is all of ours, we all love it and want it to succede.

[kjeron]

Combat Cloak was broken so it was 'fixed'; but now you either take zero damage if cloak beats the mob firing on you, or you only take 50% damage if the mob fires but you cloak before the damage lands. This has lead to Jenquai (JD in paticular) to abuse the system to solo things they shouldn't be able too. And they will only get stronger as more of their items start working. Picture the current JD with a coma device that works, and some other situational debuffs working too. Nothing will stop a JD then. Blind the friends, and burn down one mob while active cloaking. It is a pretty scary thought honestly.

The change to cloak has not changed what they can solo because abusing it in that matter was never neccasary, just a safeguard to survive screwing up. Abusing the damage immunity only became nessecary with the Mordana, which were what brought this to light, as they were only soloable, and infact only survivable whether alone or with a group, by this method. There is nothing they could solo before the mordana were added that they cannot still solo right now, even if you reduce their dps or remove the damage immunity/reduction on cloak, they will still be able to solo endgame bosses, it will just take longer and be a little harder, but it will still be done. The JE is actually ahead of the JD in how much they can solo, it just takes forever to do.

They are the best at 1 on 1 combat, if they can get a mob in that situation, they should be able to kill it. They just shouldnt be able to get every single raid boss into that situation.

The JD's nerf will come in the form of mob AI, updated weapon loadouts on mobs, and to a lesser extent 'see cloaked'. It will happen, but they're going to be OP until then. The few things they can no longer solo is a result of this already starting to happen.

Cloak is still one of the most bugged skills in the game, most of which hinder, not help, the JD/JT/JE trying to use it.