Algaron

Jenquai feel your pain when it comes to building progen stuff - I am not sure, so don't quote me, but I thought I remember being able to make progen stuff on my JD - just not being able to equip it. As to nerfing classes or balancing - it's pretty much a given that Mob Ai needs to be addressed before any skills or class balancing can happen. We can't put the cart before the horse. There is lots wrong or not working with every class right now, including my beloved JD, but I am under no illusion that tweaking skills or nerfing classes will really fix anything until they fix Mob AI. I think the best course of action is to push the Devs into fixing the Mob AI first before we can talk about balance. --------------- A Progen Warrior is the MOST powerful class in the game bar none. Here is the thing. A PW can out DPS any class over time, if only because you do not stop firing and your damage builds up over time. Whereas a JD has to stop firing to cloak wait 3 secs in order to get Stealth strike (another broken skill) for double damage. On smaller mobs a JD will own always just because of the massive damage we can do intermittently. On raid mobs the PW will ALWAYS out DPS everyone. IF a JD and a PW each took an identical mob, say a lvl 60 drone - the PW would totally own.

Well Nathan spawned in Sol System as can be seen at this link. [url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/5379-original-end-of-beta/"]https://forum.enb-emu...al-end-of-beta/[/url] And a picture of the fight can be found here: [url="http://www.earthandbeyond.ca/community/glimpse/glimpse02.09_23.htm"]http://www.earthandb...pse02.09_23.htm[/url] Just to add - I see in the pic he had just over 100k shield

Yah sorry i read that afterwards - and made the appropriate edit.

No. You can not pull a mob from 250k away, not in live and not in EMU. The maximum summon range for mobs is 6.5k without a buff. The thing they were talking about is double summoning, where another JD summons YOU from 200k away while you are summoning a mob. Its take a certain amount of skill to do this as well. I have said it before and will say it again. JD's are for professional players. Everyone else plays a progen.

Agreed. The speed of cloaking is the problem right now. Nothing else. Even super fast cloaking will not let you escape damage right now - just mitigates it a bit. But there lots of cloaking issues. Group cloak isn't working correctly at the moment. Scan is broken. My JD's (and PWs of course) crit targeting is broken or turned off. And the double summoning is NOT an exploit. It is a skill and technique that is working as it should.

So we agree that NOT nerfing the JD (as many Progens on these forums usually advocate) but to unnerf your PW? Or to fix the MOB AI? I am in full agreement. Yah let's please get off this soapbox of nerfing other classes because yours doesn't do what you would like it too. I think your post would have been better served if you had suggested they unnerfed your PW instead. I do not play any progens what so ever. All jenquai all the time. So you will never see me go after a PW because they have a huge hull and can take on a group of mobs at once, something a JD can not do. They are totally different classes even tho they are both warriors. Play style is different, skills are different, everything is different. I am more apt to whine about my summon distance sucking because I cant summon or fold far enough away to isolate a mob. It usually take a couple summons to break its tethering.

I do know of JD that solo Gobb - I have done it myself, but it's not some cakewalk, and rarely will you be able to get thru the raid unscathed and without dying. As for soloing Fish bowl - not a chance without a JT along side of you. I have had cloak fail lots of times - currently if I get enough damage on my JD - it will fail, especially if I get hulled. Please also realize that with high end content latency plays a huge factor with a jenquai's cloak. You think you are going to avoid damage by cloaking in time, but most times projectiles and missiles are already on the way. Even after it appears you are cloaked. As for doing mobs 17 levels above you. Welcome to the world of JD's. Thats how the class is played. Of course we can kill mobs high above our level as thats how the class was designed. Massive damage intermittently. Any warrior class can kill mobs much higher than they are - if you are skilled enough and have the patience to do it. Coma and snipe with a JD - we also have missiles and projectiles for that class as well don't forget. All of the devices and uber weapons in the world will not help your class if its not played correctly. I take on 3 drones all the time - coma them all summon one and work it - while folding the others away. It's not hard - it's just technique.

I was looking at some old pics involving one of the most fun server wide events we had in Live. Nathan Zhao. I remember back in Live it took the Andromeda server some 4 hours to take down this mob. There were at least 100 toons, tons of groups and guilds all working together to try to slay this guy! Awesome event. I can't remember exactly what is shield cap was - something like 60 million and when someone died I believe he healed a little bit on each death. I realize there may not be the player base yet to attempt this level of mob as he was in live, but perhaps we could adjust his shield cap. If we are looking at server stability and stress testing - this would be a great way to see how it would fare. Not only that - it would be fun! Is anyone else interested in Nathan Zhao? And how hard would he be to code into the game?

I totally disagree with your assessment and your fix. We can't be nerfing class skills because of the Mob AI not working correctly - adding a cooldown to the JD's main means of defense is NOT the way to go. Until mobs that use projectiles or beams stop firing from their butt, or are able to acquire the target and fire upon JD the instant he decloaks, adding a cooldown would only kill the class. Yah cloak is broken - there are lots of issue that are going on with Jenquai, but your solution will not help anything. I also highly doubt a JD can solo anything like fish bowl with out a grouped JT cloaked and healing as well. So I think your claims are suspect. The ONLY way a JD could solo anything like that is to have absolutely ZERO latency - and that will not happen. Mobs do not delay firing as you suggest, they fire instantly. As JD we do not have the luxury of screwing up even once on any high end content. Unlike a PW we do not have level 9 shields HDC and a huge hull, so one missed cloak costs us our lives and we becomes doritoes. And trust me when I say it currently nearly impossible to solo high end content using our other skills such as summon or fold space. High end Mobs have a firing range much farther than a JD fold space or summon so its useless unless in a group and not having aggro. Mob AI is the problem - not the JDs.

Just to add - tried to use /logo add (player) but the command just kills the game and drops you at the desktop. I didn't try any of the other logo commands. The guild leader issued the command.

I still disagree that using your class skills is somehow lame or cheap or cowardly even. If using your skills and playing your toon well helps you avoid death and succeed at PvP, then more power to you.These are the skills the classes were given. Not using them to their maximum potiential is the crime. Sorry, you attributed a quote to me that wasn't mine. I was just wondering with powerdown you say you are untargetable and green. Is that just to a mob or everyone, because, my AI is a little better - we are both in PvP mode and I can tell you are trying to fool me.

[quote name='Zackman' timestamp='1336824377' post='57752'] Shaddex translated for me (me = non native english) and since i never heard that phrasing, i was irritated. But now i know what you are saying - TNX !! [/quote][quote name='Zackman' timestamp='1336824377' post='57752'] Shaddex translated for me (me = non native english) and since i never heard that phrasing, i was irritated. But now i know what you are saying - TNX !! [/quote] yah sorry bout that - should have read "its the tops , bar none"

So it's cheezy that a JD cloaks to hide from a Progens retribution but powerdown, menace,etc. That's all cool and fair game and wow it's not cheezy at all? LoL Ok I see. Regardless, I don't think there is a cheezy factor to this at all. Progen, Jen or Terran, these are the skills we have at our disposal. Its how we use them that is important. No it's a test of of skill against skill, a crappy progen will still die at the hands of a skilled JD. I would want to find tactics to overcome the those skills, not to have everyones skills diminshed. What fun would that be? Pretty soon no one would have any skills left at all with all the skills being disabled Where would it stop? Well if progens are going to be the PvP Gods then so be it. I prefer to fight against a Progens skill set and not have the jenquai tweaked to death so progens can have their way.. again. No skills should be disabled, modified or limited - If we find that progens are indeed awesome and overpowered, then perhaps we should have a look at the progens skill set. Not the Jenquai.

Like I have said before - you can't make certain rules just for one class like the JD - its not fair to the JD's. We can't be having 'temporary see thru cloaks', just so a progen can seek retribution. We shouldn't incapacitate, hinder, block or otherwise stop classes from using any and all skills they are born with, PvP must use the skills they have in PvE - no more no less. It's not cowardly or wussy/wimpy or whatever other adjective you would like to use. Its the class skill and thats what PvP is meant to do - fight against other players using your skills - its the nature of the beast. I see this a lot of these forums - oh jenquai can cloak and well that's not fair to my progen who wants to beat on you. Well sorry bout that - but Jenquais cloak and progens powerdown. I have already talked about AoE's and other skills that may hit a PvP player. It shouldn't affect the PvE player at all - they should not aggro, turn PvP, or have any change happen at all - Unless they manually type in the command to enable pvp. Full stop. Mind you I can see abuse from PvE healers - that could heal their buddies who are in PvP, without consequence. This could be coded so that just as a PvP player could not fire on or attack any PvE player, a PvE player could not use any skills on a PvP player and would have to enable PvP to do so. There does not need to be a message for less than attentive players in this scenario. Again my thoughts on the Message thing is that if somehow you become PvP flagged for using a skill or attacking a PvP, and you die.. well you won't try the same thing again will you? It like the first time you hit GoBB and died, the next time you will be much more careful. That's how games work. But the point is moot - it can be coded so PvE can not have any affect of PvP players at all, or vice versa. This would fix your outside of station concern as well. I don't think the issue of lag or over crowding will arise in game as you suggest, but it's certainly something to consider. Your suggestion of having PvP free zones is certainly a fair one as well. Something that can be added or removed as we move along the PvP adventure that's for sure.

No that's true if you chase someone across 10 sectors - you best seek some medical attention. No I agree with that Vitaes, a large sector isnt really limiting anyone is it, especially if it already contains mobs/hulks/navs etc. I was thinking more of the developers having to add assets in a new closed sector, the time it would take to do such a project and the people hours it would consume. I just figured it would be much easier on the devs - if all they needed to do was add code to enable the pvp flag. BTW PvEer's - this is merely a discussion of now to make PvP and how to make it fun for all involved (fun for PvE'ers is not having to deal with PvP at all) No one is suggesting this all goes in next patch or anything of the sort. In the words of the great Bartholomew Simpson - "Don't nobody have a cow man!"

My post doesn't look so huge after reading this one! But seriously folks. No sorry Matts I have to disagree on rules 5/6/7. In order: 5. You can't really tell players they can't congregate here or there, or just sit outside a station. It's not enforceable for one, and for another I don't see any huge lag/dc issues that would arise from someone being flagged PvP, anymore than if they were a bunch of PvEer's hanging outside F7 Station. You can't segregate people to the back of the bus because they have a certain flag turned on - even if you don't like them. 6.The PvP cooldown timer should persist through cloak.I am not sure I understand what you are asking for here. Is that you want the timer to be extended so if a JD does cloak or a progen does use powerdown, the cooldown will stop so that when they come out of cloak/powerdown the timer picks up where it stopped? Its unworkable as it puts 2 or 3 classes at a distinct disadvantage. [i][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]" A JD in PVP mode gets to decimate someone from cloak/gank, then wait out the PVP timer in cloak so the other PvPer don't get a counter attack? Thats just wimpy, If they got into PvP and fought, they should take the chance they get counter attacked, either from the player they did/didn't conquer or other pvpers."[/font][/color][/i] I noticed you once again picked on JD's That's fine - your true colours are showing. Wimpy or not this is how a Jenquai defender class works - it cloaks. I strongly disagree with your reasoning here. We can't have one set of rules for JD's and another set of rules for everyone else. It has to work based on the class' skill set. Besides, I am not going to hang around waiting for my PvP cooldown to finish so I can avoid 'retribution' - cloaked or not. If I do wait out PvP cooldown in cloak - well catch me next time. I would probably just warp out of the area - or dock anyway. 7. I am sure it could be possible to make it so that some TT or JT will not enter a flagged state if they happen to heal a Flagged PvPer, but regardless - there will be a tag over the players ship clearly stating PvP. If you disregard the flag, heal anyways and become PvP flagged, well that's your own fault. "Situational awareness my friend". It would be a learning experience and I bet you never tried to heal a PvP player again while in PvE did you? . We can't code the game to be dummy proof nor should we try. I mean your bad luck with a previous MMO PvP shouldnt be the basis for what the PvP community wants here. I don't think it's necessary to hold people's hand and with a hand-holding message like "Are you sure? Are you absolutely positive you want to do this? Really??" in order for them to play the game. It's sad really you feel that this is needed. You can't enter PvP if you are not L150 regardless would be my solution - so you won't have a young TT being flagged PvP for trying to heal a PvP player. Again the suggestion was that a player has to type /pvp on to actually engage in PvP. I was all for open sector PvP for a couple reasons. 1) more area to PvP means less likelyhood of bothering PvE players at all. 2) The resources needed to create this type of PvP would be vastly less that what would be needed to create a separate sector complete with gates /mobs /hulks /stations /npcs 3) Limiting PvP to a small sector takes away so many potential fun things and scenarios for a PvP Player. Including mob involvement, escaping out the area to another sector (fun factor is gone if all I can do is fly around inside a zone, trying to avoid my maker), hulks for explorers (nothing more exciting than trying to gather resources while looking over your shoulder for an attack) I can understand the reasoning behind wanting to bottle up PvP in some small sector away from the rest of the gaming community, but I think it's shortsighted in the development of the game, there are a lot of ways to make PvP work for everyone and so much potential for it later on as well. As for Global Messaging for PvP - well that's just a cool option that can be added. I feel it would be more exciting. Perhaps it could be limited to 'Broadcast or Local" channels. I am not a stubborn hardcase and want to work with the PvE players on this, so whatever we can do to make this work would be great. OK so that's 1 NO for global messaging.

Ah there you go then and you correct the services provided here are the tops bar none.

[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1336533160' post='57524'] You can transfer items between characters on your linked accounts on the N7 portal. Log in and click on account. The items for transfer must be in your vault, and both toons involved in the transfer may not be logged into the game. [/quote] Just to clarify Terrell - I believe they need to be in your Cargo Hold for the transfer - not the vault.

I agree, the Arena is rather small for decent PvP, however it would work fine for Guild vs Guild Tournaments as well as 1v1 or 3v3 or whatever will be decided for the setup.The optimal solution as I have stated before is to just have a pvp flag you can enable and be able to PvP anywhere against another PvP toon. Some are concerned that people will camp outside the noob sector and kill noobs as they gate, and there are some who believe that you can't have some L150 Jenquai Explorer attack a L110 PP because that would be unfair. So the suggestion was too only let L150 toons be able to activate PvP.

[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1336689890' post='57662'] I won't fight with you in public any more...if you want to take it private let's do it. it was your answer a fear I expressed about PvP, you made it sound like I was some idiot for thinking that the strong in a game have a right to pick on anyone they choose in the PvP area. No rules, no limits open PvP. Enjoy the game, I'm sure you will get bored and move on soon enough. Too bad there will be others that may just move on and you won't have anyone to "Gank" and or "Grief" [/quote] Well I am not here to fight with anyone either. Its supposed to be a discussion on how to make PvP fun, and yet those who dont want to PvP at all, think I am suggesting some sort of concept where its open season on everyone. "No rules, no limits open PvP" - I have offered solutions and suggestions already, so either you haven't read what I posted or you have no constructive ideas. What I have talked about is the exact opposite of what you wrote. There are rules, there are limits, and it wouldn't be open PvP by design. I would like it if you commented on that. Apparently no suggestion to have any kind of PvP is acceptable. Its just content, and content you need to actively engage in. It's like Agrippa, should we get rid of anything Agrippa because I don't like it or want to have anything to do with it? I know it exists but I don't bother with it, and it doesn't affect ANY aspect of my game play that it exists. Just like PvP - I, or anyone else for matter, would have to actively seek out PvP to play it. To your concerns about 'ganking' and 'grief', PvP would be a mutual exercise. I would need another PvP player to play with since I wouldn't be able to attack or 'gank' a PvE player at all, regardless of location or level.

[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1336688449' post='57657'] The above quote sums it up for me. [/quote] Of course we were discussing your concerns about ganking weren't we? And I am trying to address you concerns, and yet you try to throw this back in my face? Classy.

Well I am trying to work with everyone here. And no Mimir I don't think it's a done deal. It's just that I have mentioned this a few times already. The concern for those who don't want PvP is that there will be people flying around ganking low level toons just because they can. I have suggested it be optional to flag yourself for PvP. It has to be turned on as it won't be PvP by default. So some low level toon leaving the noob starting sector, won't meet with an untimely death at the hands of some overzealous 150. Is that not a reasonable solution? The concern for people who don't want PvP is that the stronger players will pick on weaker players and make life miserable for them. Again i suggest all toon have the same CL or maxxed toon so that won't be the case but is instead a test of skill - not combat level. Is that not a reasonable solution? The concern for people who don't want PvP is that it will take up valuable time and resources to create a separate sector complete with navs and mobs. Again I suggested that perhaps the easiest and best way to code this would just be to enable a PvP flag instead. You can fight anywhere against mobs as well to add to the fun of it. You can be chased down across sectors, you can sneak intoa pack of mobs and let them turn on your pursuers. So many more options and tactics when playing in the whole universe as opposed to a 100km by 100km box. This would enable 2 types of PvP - Tournament and regular PvP. Regular PvP can be coding relatively easy without having to add a lot of objects and assets and taking up the devs time doing it. Tournament Arena can be coded later when the devs have a chance to clean up the existing code and fix all the bugs we want them too. Is that not a reasonable solution?

Forget stronger vs weaker. Make it so all toons need to be CL 50 or L150. Problem solved. I don't want to accidently waste some L75, because they got too close while I was killing a mob or another PvP player. No it's best to save PvP content for when you have maxxed out your class. This issue has been brought up before. I thought it had been addressed.

Just curious Alurra, how will PvP affect you in ANY way? It's optional. How can anyone be bullied at all? Hmm? You can't be attacked if you aren't flagged. Period. It's you own decision whether or not you play PvP. It's like someone saying I quit EnB because I have to play in Fishbowl. It's just nonsense.

[quote name='Vitaes' timestamp='1336683911' post='57637'] The best way to eliminate flags is not to have them. Flagging would not be needed anyway if you get a whole sector for PvP. [/quote] The problem with having a whole sector without flags just for PvP, is that anyone could waltz in there? Mimir and others had concerns about some Adept accidently entering the sector and being annihilated. There will already be a sector or area for dedicated PvP - The Arena. No I think flagging for PvP will be necessary regardless of whether or not you had a dedicated sector or not. A flag will be needed to turn on and off the timer.