ryleyra
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Posts posted by ryleyra
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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1314924168' post='45556']
We're going to have to rebalance the mobs and the classes either way, there are now 9 classes instead of 6, [/quote]
I don't think any MMO has completely rebalanced all existing classes when adding new ones. The concept of balance is that if all existing classes are balanced, any additional classes can be balanced by making them as effective, with a different set of strengths and weaknesses.
Granted that on live, there was only one class that could act as a healer and tank, and now there are three. But the Terran Tradesman was never a jack of all trades. It never had the firepower of the Privateer, or the stealth of the Seeker. The Tradesman does not need to sacrifice those roles to the Progen and Jenquai because it never had them.
Even if you're right, you're talking about tripling the amount of work to get this game live. That would be excessive, and likely unnecessary.
The Tradesman is as effective as it is because it has few skills that are not directly applicable to its primary function. Like every other class in the game save the warriors, it has 6 tech skills. Unlike the other classes, it has 5 build skills, 3 more than any other class outside of the traders. So the Trader sacrifices 3 of its support skills, 2 relative to a warrior, for its role as the primary builder.
The Trader's role as the primary runner of Trade Routes is supported by exactly one skill, Negotiate. This is useless in combat, and shared with only Terrans and other traders.
This leaves five skills. Navigate has only a minor role in combat, and primarily only cuts down the energy cost of running Trade Routes, making up for the Terrans' weak reactors. That leaves Befriend, Recharge Shields, Hull Patch, and Shield Charging. That is IT. Granted, three out of those four skills are extremely powerful, but there IS no other benefit the Trader brings to a team.
The Seeker has the same number of tech skills as the Tradesman and (unless you sacrifice Build Engines) the same number of build skills. At this point it has no advantage or disadvantage. It gets Negotiate, as all traders do. Still no advantage or disadvantage. That, again, leaves five skills.
The Seeker then uses up three of those five skills with Scan, Cloak, and Fold Space. Jenquai related skills that the Terran does not duplicate and does not need. The Tradesman concentrates on supporting his team and healing damage, the Seeker concentrates on being a Jenquai. Something the JE can do much better. On top of this the Seeker gets Recharge Shields, matching that one ability, and then Reactor Optimization.
Reactor Optimization is essentially Shield Charging for reactors. If it is not that powerful, it should be. (if Sheild Charging gives +25% to shields, Reactor Optimization should if at all possible get +25% to reactors) That leaves Hull Patch, which is a very useful ability, Befriend, which is situationally useful, and Navigate, which really wouldn't do the Seeker any good. The Seeker gets Scan, a skill which really wouldn't do the Tradesman any good, Cloak, and Fold Space.
The problem appears to be that the latter three skills are not an adequate exchange for the former three. And that even with the same NUMBERS, boosting shield levels is always going to be more effective than boosting reactor levels. The Seeker does not get a skill to restore reactor power, like Recharge Shields, but that is the purpose of the Phoenix (or whatever it's called) device, which perhaps unfortunately, is a JE device from live. (Perhaps the Seeker can get the Phoenix assuming that it does not currently, but as I said above, let's wait to talk about devices until some time can actually be spent on adding them to the game)
Build Engines would take the pressure off of Scan, Cloak and Fold Space, but the point is that it is Recharge Shields, Sheild Charging and Hull Patch against Recharge Shields, Reactor Optimization and WhateverTheHeck New Power you give the Seeker. One skill, Hull Patch, against one skill, some form of team support. Fold Space could be that team support skill, but it's just not powerful enough compared to Hull Patch. The same goes for Cloak. Unless one or the other is tweaked, as I suggested.
I'll add that while its support skills are no more or less in number than the Tradesman's support skills, clearly L8 shields, and a lack of missiles DOES cut down the combat capability of the Seeker. But all that means is that the Seeker should get more out of those support skills than the Tradesman. If the Seeker is not getting more out of those support skills, then the problem is poor choice of skills, and the utility of those skills. In other words, again it comes down to Scan, Cloak and Fold Space not supporting the primary purpose of a trader and balancing the Seeker's lower damage and defense. (Although Cloak and Fold Space certainly do this solo) -
[quote name='barachius' timestamp='1314921366' post='45550']
OK heres an idea,
Make psi shield half as good as shield recharge, make the JS shield recharge, Half as good as the TT shield recharge, and give the JS both.
[/quote]
Which is why I say DON'T give the Seeker Psi Shield, but instead give it something that is conceptually similar to Psi Shield, but does not overlap with Shield Recharge. Such as, some sort of protection for the teammates' hulls.
The point of Psi Shield, really, is to keep damage from hitting the shields. It's a third layer on top of your shields. Which means that under perfect conditions you shouldn't need Recharge Shields, because nothing will be getting through the Psi Shield. Just as under perfect conditions you shouldn't need Hull Patch, because nothing will be getting through Recharge Sheilds.
If it was an additional layer between the shields and the hull, though, so that anything that got through Recharge Shields wouldn't effect the hull, I would call that more in line with the Seeker. Besides, it would also give the Seeker something that the Defender can't bring to a team, whereas Psi Shield is a borrowed skill. -
[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1314910846' post='45522']My point was the mobs being able to do something comparable to the Jenquai and blind scan in combat, with all Jenquai having Scan 7 to counter it. To the JT I'd add a remove debuff device, to make that a bit more practical. That way if anyone other than the Jenquai in the group gets his scan reduced, the Share Scan counters the reduction in scan range, along with countering the reduction in weapon range that comes with it.
I do think that mobs may need lower signatures to make this practical, since how far away something can be seen is determined by the object's sig, added to the viewer's scan range. IF those two numbers added up are greater than the distance between object & viewer, object can be seen by viewer. (absent cloaking)
[/quote]
The only problem is 1) you're adding a whole lot of work to rebalance the signatures for the MOBs, and 2) no other race but the Jenquai get Scan 7. Scan 5 DOES allow you to see through cloaks. It does not allow your allies to inherit your scan range, which is really what Scan 7 does. For a JE, it gives everybody 7.0 scan range.
As far as I know, the signatures of MOBs are not designed around making them hard to spot. It's usually easier to spot MOBs than it is to spot asteroids or nav points. And your MOBs aren't going to "disappear" until they debuff anyway. So really you're talking about a cloak. Which Scan 5 can already see through.
It really sounds like you are trying really hard to make a really useless skill (to the JS anyway) really useful to the team. To the point of actually changing the rules of the game to make this skill so useful. And none of what you are suggesting would in any way benefit the JS as much as simply giving it (for example) Shield Charging.
It seems to me that the Seeker is inheriting Scan because, like Negotiate for Terrans or Critical Targeting for Progen, it is a passive skill representative of the area in which the Jenquai excel, exploration. However, both Cloak and Fold Space are ALSO useful skills for exploration, and are shared by all Jenquai, unlike the majority of Trader and Warrior skills. Terrans do not all get Recharge Shields, (although two of them do get Hull Patch) and Progen do not all get Shield Inversion. To me, the benefit from giving the Seeker Cloak and Fold Space outweighs making it lose Scan as its "racial skill".
If nothing else, just boost the scan range of the Seeker to 5.0 and be done with it. That's pretty much what you get out of your first four points of Scan.
If you want, go ahead and drop Build Engines for ANOTHER unique skill. -
[quote name='HellHas' timestamp='1314915631' post='45533']
I think you have a good point, but I also think Terrel has a good point as well... The Seeker has no specific devices for it yet, and until they do you have no idea whether them having l9 device tech is a good thing.
[/quote]
And honestly, if a device has a good effect, it doesn't really matter if it is L8 or L9. A good device could be designed for the Seeker even if it only gets Devices 8. The only thing that would be lost is the EXISTING level 9 devices that the Seeker has access to.
I honestly don't think it needs to be changed, but then, I don't think that all three Jenquai really need to have exactly the same tech skill levels, either. It can go either way. The Progen will always have the trader with the lowest Engine rank anyway. And the same argument about good L8 Devices designed for the Seeker could be applied to good L8 Engines for the Seeker as well. -
Rather than rehash the whole thread over again, how about I try to sum up the arguments for and against dropping each individual JS skill in favor of a new one. Honestly, for anyone who just wants to keep on sticking on new skills until he thinks the JS is powerful enough for him to be satisfied with it, there's no need for discussion. I really have nothing to say to that.
This discussion is on what MIGHT be the best tradeoffs to make the JS more viable to a team, in preference to a TT. Or how the existing skills might be made more powerful/useful.
Scan:
While Scan is a useful skill, it is not in any way unique to the Seeker. It does give a reason to choose a JS over a TT, in that the TT does not have that skill, but it does not give a reason to choose a JS over a TT and either a JE or JD. Or, for that matter, a TS or PS. Should the skill be raised to L7, it would be more useful than those other classes that don't have it at L7, but it's still a minor advantage compared to the defensive advantages of Hull Patch and Shield Charging.
The main thing is, as it stands, Scan is only useful to the JS, and what is the use of it to the JS? To increase the range at which he can engage the enemy? He has neither missiles nor Summon. To spot threats earlier so he can escape from them? The JS is not a miner, and if he is trying to engage in combat he doesn't want to escape. The only advantage of this skill APPEARS to be if it is increased to L7, and the MOBs are made to debuff scan range. As it is, it really seems to be only available to extend the range of debuffs. And as I said above, the Coma could provide this function, as well as a more useful debuff itself.
Build Engines:
As far as combat is concerned, this is a better choice than the Scan skill, as it has no effect in combat. On the other hand, it reduces the JS's comparison to the TT as a builder. I also suspect that it is not intended to leave Terrans as the only race capable of building Engines. While it will not be a great loss to the JS as an individual, it would be a greater loss to Jenquai as a whole. One of the other Jenquai classes could pick up the build skill, but this would pass on the choice of which skill to drop to them.
Build Devices:
While the L30 advancement mission requires this skill, the JS could be given a different mission. The JS's reliance on devices goes well with the skill, though, and Build Devices appears to be a common Jenquai skill. Of course, the very fact that other Jenquai can build devices does decrease the need for the JS to build them.
As an alternative, though, perhaps the JD could have the level 30 advancement mission changed, and trade Build Devices for Build Engines? This would be identical to the TE's selection of build skills, but could solve the issues with both Build skills for the JS.
Build Weapons:
Clearly, this would lose the ability of the JS to build his own weapons and ammunition, and to compete in a lucrative market. OTOH, the JS is the most likely of the three trader classes to be able to do without the ability to build his own ammunition and weapons. A JS already cannot build his own shields, and would have to have someone else build some other system if he sacrificed some other build skill. So the more serious drawback to this loss would be economic, not in terms of firepower or usefulness to a team.
Build Reactors:
This is the skill that was gained in order to lose the previously defined team oriented skill, Psi Sheild. Removing it again to get it back would pretty much contradict the reasoning behind adding it in the first place. Primarily, that Build Reactors is the one ability the TT lacks, and thus distinguishes the JS and PP from it as a builder.
Fold Space:
Fold Space, also, was gained when Build Reactors was gained. However, it might be argued that Psi Shield would have made the JS more powerful than Fold Space. As it is, though, Fold Space is defining enough as a Jenquai skill that I think it's important, and it is a useful skill both solo and in a team as well. Its level could be made higher to make it more attractive.
However, as with other Jenquai skills, it is not distinctive. Fold Space could be replaced with another skill with a similar theme, but different abilities more suited to the trader/healer profession. This would make it less redundant with the JE and JD, although personally I couldn't really say what such abilities could be.
Cloak:
Cloak is another skill that is defining for a Jenquai, and gaining Explore XP will not be as easy without the ability to avoid MOBs. Combat will also be more difficult, although it might be argued that if a new power could enhance combat well enough the offensive boost from Cloak might not be needed. Replacing Cloak with Psi Shield, for instance, might not make combat impossible for a JS, just slow.
However, I believe Cloak is in keeping with the close combat strategy of Jenquai, since the JE and JS lack missiles. For this reason, as with Fold Space, I don't think I'd as much replace it as change it to make it more of a support cloak. The offensive capability doesn't have to be lost, just add an additional power, branching off from the JE version, which allows the JS to use Cloak in some way while supporting a team. Obviously not allowing heal through cloak, but still granting a benefit from it. This appears to be the main complaint against the skill in a team setting, that damage is not needed, and healing is, and thus the cloak is useless.
The rest of the skills are either pretty much required to be a trader (Build Components, Negotiate, Recharge Sheilds) or is the one unique skill the JS DOES have. While Reactor Optimization could be made more powerful in some way, it still would do little to replace one unique skill with another unique skill, or even one that isn't unique. -
[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1314849331' post='45458']
Right now the 3 new classes have nearly nothing in the form of exclusive equipment. This is one of the things that helps define a classes role in a group. It's an example of how can any particular class best help their group. Sometimes 2 or more classes can do a particular thing, but it's more practical for one than the other, or one has a bigger buff/debuff, these things aslo matter. Both in balancing the classes, and defining their role.[/quote]
I don't disagree with that. The three new classes certainly need to be brought in line with the others when it comes to their specialized equipment. But you don't want to, for instance, give them a really great, important device to do the job of a skill. Because at some point in the future that device could be replaced with some other device that would effect that balance.
I will say, though, that it might be useful to simply leave the Scan skill to something provided by devices, which already exist. For that matter, is the Coma device not usable by the Seeker? -
[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1314868480' post='45467']
Not sure if you understood the statement.
A PP and TW do almost the same damage, that is why it is in league with warrior professions. A PP is for all intents and purposes a warrior profession that happens to have recharge shields.
[/quote]
Comparing mining to combat is a bit misleading. For one thing, while a PP and a TW have the same weapon slots and Critical Targeting, there really is no skill that is "Warrior only". Anybody can fight. You don't HAVE to have Critical Targeting in order to be able to fight. All traders have Build Components, however, and all explorers have Prospect. Build Components is something only traders can do. But even at that, the other classes have Build skills, even if they can't build the components needed for what they can build. And all the classes can run Trade Routes, even if they don't have Negotiate.
Combat, building, trade routes, jobs, these are all things that all classes can do.
Mining, however, is something only classes with Prospect get to do. It is a source of Explore XP which is unique to the exploration classes. The other classes aren't just slower at earning it, they can't earn it at all, unless they team with a miner. The primary means of earning Exploration XP is exploring nav points, again using a team to earn XP from those nav points again, and jobs.
Prospect is like nothing else in the game because of this, and the only way to change it is to either let everybody mine, or to provide some other form of Exploration XP. Giving all classes the ability to mine would allow traders to pretty much build anything from ores without any need for interation with another player. And it would certainly prevent explorers from getting as much use out of their Prospect skill as they do. Even giving Prospect to one trader class would definately give that trader an advantage, except for those items that class can't build. (In the JS's case, Sheilds)
What the JS and JD honestly need is some way to earn Explore XP that is not mining. The PP and PS can fight MOBs to earn Combat XP. The TE and TS have large holds and Negotiate to earn lots of Trade XP. The main advantage that the JD and JS have in exploration is in being able to cloak to explore nav points (and do some Jobs) in safety without having to fight. Unfortunately, this is the system we inherited from live, and I'm not sure it's a good idea or even possible to change it at this point. MAYBE we could come up with some system by which JDs and JSs could "mark" or "scan" asteroids for XP in some way, but mining the actual resources would impact the economy, which isn't all that healthy to start with...
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[quote name='Lot' timestamp='1314868509' post='45468']
Anyway, E&B worked fine in the old days without an auction house.[/quote]
As I said, don't point to the "success" of E&B as evidence that an MMO works without an auction house.
Quite honestly, I fought this battle for two years, and heard exactly the same arguments. There is nothing new here.
[quote]In the old days it was fun to directly deal with other players. If you wanted an auction you got everyone into a private channel and let bidding commence. And there probably aren't enough players right now or in the future to make an AH viable. A small population of players needs more reasons to get in touch with each other, not less.[/quote]
As I said above, the point of this system, particularly if it is as simplistic as Rolo is suggesting, is to supplement the Market Channel, not replace it. Likely the exact same people on the Market Channel will be the ones using the auction house. If you are looking for rare ores or to have a high level item built, you would go to the Market Channel and sell it. Possibly, item building would be done face to face, at any level, just to keep the player interaction, and because there wouldn't be enough space on the auction house for lots of weapons and equipment to be sold that way.
This system is primarily for the trade of ores and components. Which rarely takes place in the Market Channel anyway. If any traders ever do trade ores, which normally they don't, they rip them from components, they either have alts to mine them or deal with the same friends or guildmates. When they are forced to resort to the Market Channel it's usually only for the very rarest ores, which means it is less frequent than build requests.
[quote]Besides every AH I've ever seen has been flooded with over-priced crap that nobody wants, lol.
[/quote]
Well, that's kind of the point. While overpricing is a problem, the fact that it hasn't sold can give new players a clue that they should price their sale much lower. It's a way of determining the market value, without having to be an "insider". And "crap nobody wants" depends a lot on how much it is going for. More resources might be used if they could be priced more competitively with alternatives like component ripping and alts. While you wouldn't want to spend a lot of time and effort selling such ores, it would be nice to make more of a profit from them than just vendoring them, which you'd have to do anyway unless you just spaced them.
For the most part, though, the tendency of players to just put items up at a ridiculously overpriced value and leave them can be countered by simply limiting the number of items you can put up. A limit of 20 would reduce the number of items left on the market unsold. The players would have to withdraw those items to sell more. And that could be reduced further by putting a timeout on the sale, which again, is very common. After a time, the auction house can remove the item from the listing, but retain it in inventory so the seller can come back and reclaim it.
Yes, this could be used by players to store items, but again, with only 20 slots to your name, it wouldn't be much storage. You have more than that in your vault. -
[quote name='rolo' timestamp='1314860865' post='45463']
Possible way round this would be for each item to be sold only once, i.e. when an item gets sold it get tagged with an un-removable tag such that the 'AH' NPC would refuse to market it for the player. This would stop players hijacking all the high priced ore and ensure that people only bought for purpose.
I've no idea if this can be implemented in a reasonable fasion or even if it's worthwhile, just a thought from the top of my head.
Rolo
[/quote]
Honestly, I think my initial suggestion is just fine, that if you don't want your rare resources to be bought by someone trying to corner the market, don't put them up on the Auction House. Sell them on the Market Channel. Although I do question why anyone would think this couldn't be done via the Market Channel either. A think a Guild could easily corner the market on a resource like Grail Water if they chose to.
This system isn't intended to replace the Market Channel, only supplement it. The Market Channel will still perform its primary purpose from live. -
There's a thread about the Seeker going on over in the Player Advocate forum, but as I point out there, for any skill you add to the Seeker you'll have to take one away. Except for the Explorer, Sentinel and Privateer all class have 17 skills. (The Explorer and Sentinel have a 18th level 135 power they were given in live, and the Privateer only has 16 skills at the moment - probably that slot is being saved for a new power)
The Seeker has the name number of build skills as the Trader, and three Jenquai "racial" skills, which take away from the number of support skills the Seeker has compared to the Trader. So one of those could be exchanged for a new skill. To be precise, the Seeker used to lack Build Reactor but had Psi Shield. I don't believe Build Reactor should be taken away again just to add Psi Shield. But there are arguments for dropping another skill instead. See that thread in the Player Advocate forum.
My suggestion would actually to add a new shield more similar to Environment Shield. Since the devs felt that stacking Psi Shield with Recharge Shields was too powerful, don't make this a shield protection skill. Instead, create a totally new skill unique to the Seeker which provides EMP protection, blocking reactor drain debuffs, and provides a percentage resistance to Hull damage. This will serve as a sort of Hull Patch without being Hull Patch, and in fact make Hull Patch more useful since a TT or TS will have more time to use it.
If this turns out to be too difficult to implement (it's possible that preventing reactor drain would prevent SKILLS from draining the reactor, which could be excessive although now that I think about it, a 15% reduction in all skill costs to the team would be a good reason to bring a JS along) then the skill could simply add Deflects, (or whatever it is called) like a device. There are no player skills that do that, except Psi Shield with provides Psi Deflect. That would reduce the damage incoming on shields, but in a different way than Psi Shield.
The Privateer I think that extra skill is still in the works. Honestly, though, the Privateer doesn't really need to be more resiliant. The skill will probably end up being offensive, or some sort of control power. (The Privateer can Menace, but has no skill to hold aggro, as a Warrior does)
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It seems to me that as long as it is known and expected that all money can be wiped at any time, there will be no incentive for anyone to sell anything. Circumstances are almost guaranteed to be different on live.
However, it is true that there is very little trade for anything but the most rare items. This isn't like EVE, where ships and resources can be destroyed, but ammo is an expendable resource, and players do need equipment as they go up in levels. Right now that is being offered for free since it isn't worth asking for money that will just be wiped anyway, but on live players will either have to meet the asking price of builders or sink money into the vendors. You might hit the rare builder who is willing to cut a deal for a new player, but then you might not.
Note also that I see a lot of requests on the Market for a build of an item where the buyer has another item to rip for a component that isn't available from the vendors. That is a money sink as well. -
Honestly, I don't consider hulks to be "mining". Hulks were added so that miners would have a source of items that were usually gained from MOBs, because they have more difficulty in combat than the other classes. To that extent, what they find cannot be "refined", and thus they don't gain Trade XP for that. While it is fine to gain Explore XP, because it is an "exploration" activity, searching for and finding resources without combat, it's also find that the Trade XP would be less.
OTOH, the issue sounds like a global one for hulks and MOBs, and thus should be fixed globally. So everyone can make more Trade XP. I do agree that items found in a particular spawn should be of close to the same level, you should not find both level 9 and level 1 goods in the same asteroid/critter.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that I am seeing a variation in general from the level of the asteroid. On live I could be fairly certain that a level 4 asteroid contained level 4 ore, but I am seeing them with level 2 and 3 ore a lot more often, and I am seeing them with level 2 and 3 ore and no level 4, which I never saw on live. -
[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1314833437' post='45444']
On devices and equipment I would disagree. Introducing equipment, and making skill changes would have to be part of the balancing process, and the game would not be ready to go live, if one or more classes, isn't viable as a solo player, and a group member, plus having viability in it's particular profession.
Equipment should come no later than early Alpha. Since Alpha is, as the devs have stated, the next stage in development it makes sense that JT specific equipment (PT and Scout too) should already be coming into the game, if not now, then very soon.
[/quote]
Devices and Equipment were released all through live. The game was not released based on the classes being balanced based on the equipment they were capable of using, and only rarely was new equipment released on the requirement that the classes stay strictly in balance. Typically, new items were released for a class as they were found to be lacking, or to balance items that were added for other classes.
Certainly the items that already exist for the existing classes should be balanced with items for the new classes. But I think balancing the classes entirely on what equipment is available for them is a mistake. The place to start is skill balancing.
As for Build Weapons, you've given no argument that really demonstrates that losing Build Engines would be a better choice. Yes, it's a more popular build skill, but you've left Engines the exclusive domain of Terrans. The Progen, on the other hand, have no class that can build Devices in combination with Negotiate, but they CAN Build Devices.
(Also, your argument about distinguishing the other traders from the TT requires that they both be able to Build Reactors, as it is the only thing the TT cannot build. And the PP and JS are distinguished from each other by the fact that they can't build each other's equipment, which renders the comparison extremely one sided in favor of the TT. It's pretty much an argument which is predisposed to eliminate Engines) -
Is the problem that the devs are breaking the ammo market by supplying weapons that don't take ammo? Or are the devs responding to complaints from the players that they can't get ammo on the Market because it's too difficult and time consuming, and the ores cannot be found? You said yourself that you couldn't even support your own use of Longbows. At level 6. It seems to me that level 9 would be even worse.
Of course, availability isn't a problem an auction house can fix, but it can help get the ore to the players once it is available. And yeah, there were lots of suggestions on live about how to increase the productivity of asteroids at higher level. It doesn't make sense to see L1 and L2 asteroids with stacks of 5 and 10 ores, and L9 asteroids with stacks of only one. And this cuts down on the amount of available XP as well.
This isn't a problem the lower level you go, though, because as I said, there is a lot more ore available. But even low level miners won't mine that ore, because it's valueless. -
Let me be more precise:
The purpose of an auction house is not to sell the rare resources that are in short supply. Although if it is suitably well designed, and the population and supply are high enough, it CAN be used to sell such resources.
The primary purpose, though, is the exchange of common resources that are in abundant supply. The auction house facilitates the exchange of such resources, instead of encouraging them to be vendored in exchange for money. While the Market channel can handle such exchange, it chooses not to, because it is more valuable to exchange resources that are rare instead.
Thus, when you go onto the Market channel with a supply of common resources, you are told "vendor that, it's junk". And when you come to the Market channel asking for a supply of common resources, you are told "just buy that from the component vendor". -
[quote name='Crichton' timestamp='1314828076' post='45434']
My comments were for comparison to how it worked in live. Ore is not plentiful in any regard at the moment. Sure its better than ST3 but its nowhere close to live.[/quote]
Well, that certainly isn't going to remain that way. Unless of course this never goes live. But if it ever does, we can assume there will not only be more resources available, but more players to actually mine them.
The idea is to put a process into place and test it BEFORE it is needed.
I agree that something needs to be done about high level fields. Even on live, the amounts available in high level fields were negligible compared to lower level fields. I believe I commented on that, at any rate, the issue is that low level miners could "lock" an asteroid and be keeping it locked while they took the time to cherry pick it. An alternative might be to increase the number of ores, but cause some "loss" if you try to mine above your Prospect level. Greater supply of resources is always preferred to having only one or two units available at any time.
[quote]Implementing an AH has a whole other set of problems due to the fact that there never was one and with so little ore at the moment whats to stop a player from controlling all the ore? [/quote]
The issue that there never was an auction house is more one of implementation. The interfaces may not be in place to make an auction house possible. Rolo suggested a possible workaround, but it is an extremely simple interface. It would hardly be as broad and complex as a modern auction house.
On the other hand, I don't think the fact that this game had no auction house is evidence that lack of an auction house works. This game lasted two years, when other games released around the same time lasted considerably longer and were considered a much greater success. Yes, you can ascribe a lot of that to EA, and you can ascribe a lot of that to the genre, but how much of that was truly the problem, and how much of that is personal opinion?
[quote]Now take Glenn as the standard and apply it to every other sector with ore. Zweinhander is a great example. A good quarter of the sector was covered with ore fields (l5-9).....right now.....nothing. Vendoring ore is fine and its a way for miners to make money but you are right in the fact that a user can either vendor or try to sell to builders but can't really do both due to lack of ore. [/quote]
The auction house provides an intermediate step between vendoring a resource, and selling it on the Market channel. Right now, vendoring a resource provides a very small profit to the player. It is actually much higher than it is was on live, if I'm right, refining an ore and vendoring it could net you as much as ten times what you used to get on live. Even so, if you start with that as a minimum, you can get at least that much, to possibly as much as 20 times for ammo ores, up to even more than that for refined ores needed for common components. Any player of the game would much prefer to have that much more money, which can then be used for much needed upgrades, making the player stronger, and his struggle to level less.
The truly high priced items, though, going on values based on rarity, could either be sold on the auction house, or the Market. If you're concerned about people buying up your Grail Water and doubling their cost, then just don't put them on the auction house. Advertise in the Market that they are available when someone comes asking why there isn't any up for sale. If the system really is as simple as it sounds like it's going to be, it's not going to be suitable for high level trade anyway.
(Also, a fixed price vendor, as in my second suggestion, would most certainly NOT be used for rare high level ores. That vendor "slot" would remain empty, as there wouldn't be enough supply to merit using it)
[quote]In live it was great to simply ask in market if you could buy 20, 50, 120 of any l2-l7 ore and actually have a few people respond. Try that now and see what you get.
[/quote]
I honestly very rarely found any response to that. I'm sure the response is even rarer now. Then again, maybe just you and I were never in the channel at the same time. Or maybe we were the two that always responded.
-
[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1314822158' post='45416']
Device tech 9
Engine tech 9
Reactor tech 9
Shield tech 8[/quote]
No class has 9 in three of the four tech skills. Typo?
[quote]L7 Hacking (remove from TW and TS as it's useless on them)[/quote]
Why in the world would it NOT be useless on Seekers? Jenquai have even less use for Hacking, as they typically go up against organics. (Red Dragons/Chavez are typically in Progen/Terran space)
I personally think the TS needs Biorepression instead. The Seeker doesn't really need it, though.
[quote]L7 build drones (as in the janus docs and build terminal)
L5 prospect (weak version of prospect that will handicap it vs real miners. Also the PP is in league with warriors, why not let the JT be in league with miners? It is not like it can do a whole lot as a trader in combat nor can it do a great deal in stations as a builder)
[/quote]
These could take care of each other. There was another thread that suggested perhaps the Seeker could build drones which would be capable of mining. The problem is, if it is more efficient than ripping ores from components the miners will feel shortchanged, while if it is less efficient than ripping ores from components there is no need to bother.
However, drones would CERTAINLY add something to a team that a Tradesman or Privateer could not match. The problem is that it brings up a whole other discussion. Who all can use drones? Who all can build them? (The JS only, or do we "retrofit" the older classes with it) What are they capable of? Do they add combat ability? Healing/tanking? Decoys?
I'll also add that while the Progen are "in league with warriors" and thus all the Progen can fight, ALL classes can fight. All classes can trade and build things, too. But only the explorer classes can prospect, and this is true even of the Jenquai. The Jenquai are "in league with explorers" but only JEs get to mine.
I personally would rather not open it up to allow all classes to mine, any more than all classes should Build Components. What is actually needed is a form of exploration (like trade) that can be practiced by all classes. I think I suggested an idea where the Seeker can "seek" relics that can then be turned in for Explore XP. -
[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1314821594' post='45413']
Nope shields are the Jenquai racial weakness, no toon gets to build their racial weakness item.[/quote]
I don't think you get my point. If the Seeker could build ALL items, he would be better than the Tradesman at building. So he loses Build Shields, but gains Build Reactor which the Tradesman lacks.
For the Seeker to "drop Psi Shield for Build Reactor" that would imply that the Seeker SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO BUILD REACTORS. So some ability he had, Psi Shield, was taken away so he could gain that ability.
Rather, as I said, it is more like the devs decided that the Seeker SHOULDN'T give up Build Reactors, a build skill for their racial strength item, for Psi Shield.
[quote]The Progen dev says they should get 3 skills (read the PT feedback thread). If so this means that it's possible to make more than 17 skills. Maybe he was mistaken, and maybe he knows something we don't.[/quote]
While I consider that it's possible for an unequal number of skills to be balanced on the overall capability of a class, it is a lot easier to keep a uniform number of skills, and tweak them relative to each other to perform balancing. In short, if the devs decide to give the Privateer 19 skills, while leaving the others at 18 or 17, I'll probably give up on ever believing the classes can be balanced.
You also have the issue of different skills opening up at different times, and the additional content that those unlock missions would represent for the classes that get extra skills. Honestly at that point we're just starting a whole new discussion.
[quote]I don't think she should drop scan, cloak is quite useful, and FS is a good skill too. I think that at least 1 of them should be raised to L7, as it would improve the JT's abilites at group support. [/quote]
Well, you're going to have to drop SOMETHING, unless you feel that giving classes different numbers of abilities is acceptable as above. The 18th power, as I said, is an option, especially for balancing out high level/raid content.
[quote]I don't think she should give up build weapons. Even non-combat classes need weapons, and everyone needs more than one. Part of a Trader's role is to build weapons, and to make money doing so. Without build weapons the JT would be at a really big disadvantage, since weapons and devices are the things that players need the most of.[/quote]
Well, there are a couple of reasons why losing Build Weapons could be preferable to losing Build Engines:
1) Build Weapons is usually taken by the warrior classes so they may make ammunition. Even the Defender has a choice of three weapons, and thus is likely to choose two types. As such, it is NOT taken by the trader or explorer classes so they can make ammunition. It's taken by the traders to provide a service to other players. If the Tradesman or Privateer can build the ammunition for his own weapons, so much the better, but it is more an inconvenience, as with the Sentinel, than it is a major detriment to his class if he cannot.
Seekers, however, like Explorers, have a much lesser need for ammunition. They specialize in beams, and cannot use missiles. So there is honestly no reason to prefer projectiles over beams except for personal preference. While a player made beam weapon will do more damage than one bought from a vendor or looted, that weapon only has to be bought ONCE. The Seeker does not have a constant need for Superior ammo like a Tradesman or Privateer.
And even if a Seeker does settle for store-bought beams, it is not going to be a crippling choice like it would be with a warrior or Privateer. The Seeker is not going to be brought into a team to deal damage anyway.
2) The very abundance of Build Weapons among the other classes means that there is a great deal of competition for it in the Market. The Seeker has to compete with Warriors, and Enforcers as well as Tradesmen and Privateers. Defenders aren't likely to have Build Weapons, for the same reason it isn't that big a drawback to the Explorer, but it's a lot harder to find builders that specialize in shields or reactors. (The Privateer losing Devices is not a serious drawback for much the same reason)
Yes, it is true that the MAJORITY of items are weapons. Build Weapons covers beams, missiles, projectiles, and ammunition. It is a lucrative skill for high volume trade, making low profit. But you said yourself, it is not the weapons, devices, or engines that the Seeker competes with Traders on the Market with, it is the reactors.
3) Since Defenders can build weapons, (although it's not very prevalent) there will be no circumstance where Jenquai will be unable to build weapons, as there would be with engines if the Seeker could not Build Engines. At least Terrans, as the best Engine builders anyway, would be able to build Jenquai engines.
Honestly, it doesn't seem as if the Jenquai would be well served by EITHER Build Weapons or Build Engines being dropped from the Seeker. Which is probably why Reactors was chosen in the first place, despite that being an even less helpful choice.
[quote]I'm quite okay with all the classes getting 2 more skills, if it's necessary to make all classses desirable. Even if some of the skills that the other classes get aren't unique.[/quote]
If this is what it takes, with some of the classes getting "throwaway" skills like Call Forward to balance them internally and make sure they get the same mileage out of the same number of skills, fine. Quite frankly, I don't think the Progen Sentinel needs anything. It is one of the strongest classes in the game, with its only drawback that it cannot build its own ammo. Call Forward was not really needed, not to the extent that Compulsory Contemplation was. And even that was added after Call Forward had already set the precedent for the 18th skill.
I will also note that while you say that Build Devices is needed to complete a L30 HU mission, on live Build Weapons was needed for the Terran L30 HU. For that reason, I always assumed the Scout would be able to build his own ammunition. Guess what changed, the build skill, or the mission? So maybe the Jenquai dropping Build Devices is not out of the question.
Personally, while Scan is a useful team skill, I don't think it's AS useful as a more healer oriented skill, or you would not be complaining about it. I don't like the idea of dropping Scan, as it's the signature "explore" skill, but it honestly adds very little to a healer. Then again, maybe it could be replaced with an active type of scan, which adds to defense as well, kind of like Afterburn. That would bring a unique defensive benefit to having a JS on the team, which no other class (or no other trader, anyway) could match.
Cloak is the other possibility. As others have noted, while it's a very useful solo skill, no one uses it in teams since healing drops the cloak. Presumably you can reestablish the cloak the same as with Combat Cloak, but there is no non-damage advantage, which is why I again suggested a defense increase.
Alternately, if you want to bring the Psi Shield back, drop Scan for it, or make it the 135 skill. I was actually thinking of something like a combination of Psi Shield and Environment Shield, not as much defensive since the Seeker has Recharge Shields, but something that will protect against EMP/reactor drain and maybe even protect the hull from damage. (Thus serving as a sort of Hull Patch without Hull Patch)
Increasing levels of skills I can't really comment on, because I'm not going to say that isn't going to change. To me it is more the selection and number of skills than levels. If increasing the level of Scan or Cloak will make it more team-oriented, though, satisfying your issues, then great. I'm really just suggesting tweaks to the power, you're suggesting just bumping up the level. Sort of the same thing.
Same goes with devices. Of course some are needed, but I'm not worried about some being added before we go live. Assuming that ever happens. It's an incremental process. -
[quote name='HellHas' timestamp='1314820406' post='45410']
Jenquai don't build shields for the same reason Progens don't build engines, or the Terrans don't build reactors...
[/quote]
Yes, yes, but conversely you would expect Jenquai to build reactors, for the same reason that Progen build shields and Terrans build engines. Seekers have exactly the same number of build skills as Tradesmen. Every trader has something they DON'T build; in the Tradesman's case it is Reactors, in the Seeker's case it is Shields.
The Privateer has TWO systems he does not build, Engines because that is consistent with Tradesmen and Seekers, and Devices presumably because the devs have not yet decided on whether they want that or a totally unique skill for the 17th slot. Privateers currently have no skill which is unique to them, and so that slot may be left open for a new skill.
(Note also that at least two of the three classes for each race are able to build that system that is their speciality. Two Progen classes can build Shields, and I'm pretty sure all three Terrans get to build Engines. So the Seeker being able to build Reactors fits with that, also also prevents there from there being only two classes overall that can build reactors, one Jenquai and one Progen) -
[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1314755319' post='45387']
PT actually is currently short at least one skill, but due to his firepower can get picked over a JT. [/quote]
PT is actually missing Build Devices. Not sure if that is intended.
If it is, though, maybe the JT could give up Build Engines, or even Build Weapons, to make more room for the support skills. Or just drop Scan, Cloak or Fold Space, that's three "defining Jenquai powers", which is really too many. Fold Space appears to be the most useful of the three, but perhaps Cloak could be traded for a cloak that is more support oriented. (Such as, one that when you decloak to heal someone, instead of a damage boost, you get a boost to attack avoidance)
[quote]The JT dropped Psi shield for Build Reactor.[/quote]
It seems more to me like the JT dropped Build Shields for Build Reactor. I'm sure what you're saying is that it originally had Psi Shield instead of Build Reactor in the emulator, but as I said, the JT has to give up a build skill for that. (It's more like, they decided NOT to drop Build Reactor for Psi Shield)
If you add an 18th skill, it needs to follow the same rules as the current 18th skill, which is that AFAIK you get it at 135. And Call Forward isn't as much a skill as an interface to a respec system. When Compulsory Contemplation was added, it led to a demand for an 18th power for everyone else. But Sunset happened before that could be implemented.
I'm not saying that an 18th skill isn't a good idea, but it opens up a lot of work for the devs to balance that for the other classes.
Another point, obviously it is an unreasonable demand to insist that the JT be EQUALLY as good a builder as a TT, EQUALLY as good at support as a TT, and EQUALLY as stealthy and to have all the advantages of a Jenquai. Something has to give somewhere. If support to a team is the most important thing to a JT, then that should be what you concentrate on. -
I always thought it would be interesting if the Seeker got missiles instead of projectiles. The Jenquai are the only race that can do this, Beams are required as that is the weapon all starting players begin with, so the Terrans cannot choose missiles and projectiles, and the Progen get all three weapons systems by default. However, that wouldn't really bring anything to a team. (And wouldn't be any different from a TT) Also, as missiles are the weakest weapon for Jenquai it makes sense that only their warriors get them.
It may have also been a mistake to drop Psi Shield for Recharge Shields. While it's expected that all Traders should be able to Recharge Shields, Psi Shield adds another layer on top of that, and could be just as useful as having Recharge Sheilds. On the other hand, there's nothing a JS could potentially do with Psi Shield that a JD could not do as well.
There's really no way to add more support skills, though, without dropping a build skill. The JE has so many more support skills because she has only the two build skills. Unless you want to add an 18th skill. But you already need to add an 18th skill to everyone but the JE and PS anyway. -
[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1314740819' post='45382']
If there was a Jenquai with L9 engines it would be the JT, but I don't think the benefit to having L9 engines is enough to make up for the loss of L9 devices.
[/quote]
There's certainly no reason not to insist that Jenquai specialize in Reactors AND Devices.
But now that I think about it, though, ALL of the Jenquai have the same equipment. Level 9 Devices and Reactors, Level 8 Engines and Shields. I only really noticed it with the Defender, but IIRC it is true for the Explorer as well. The only difference for the Defender is that he gets missile capability, which no other Jenquai does.
The only advantage, as you say, to L9 Engines is the greater warp speed, and the JT gets the same number of slots (I assume, it starts the same) as the TT. And without access to the Roadrunner it doesn't really bridge that gap. So from a gameplay standpoint, if not a pure logic one, the Devices are better than the Engines. And the JT could get her own version of the Roadrunner, if you wanted to come down to that. -
[quote name='Lot' timestamp='1314713676' post='45372']Can it be that simple ... but as long as the truth that players need credits is ignored then there's no hope.[/quote]
The rarity of high level ores has always been a problem, ever since live. A lot of the problem is due to the fact that a low level player is not restricted from "cherry picking" high level fields, outside of his reactor capacity, and the risk of encountering a high level guardian. He prospects more slowly than a high level miner, but he can still beat the high level miner to a stack of high level ore, and take all the time he needs while the asteroid is "locked". So my assumption is that high level ores are found in stacks of one or two, while low level ores are found in stacks of 5 or 10, for this reason.
If the availablity of ores at all levels were equal, there would not be a problem. And I'm talking about live. For all I know, attempts are being made to address this issue. I do understand that pop rocks can be mined now, that there is a chance to salvage the ores in them. So this increases the supply for those willing and able to take the greater risk.
One suggestion I saw on live was to have the ores you mine multiplied if you are high Prospect level. That is, you mine 1 unit of level 9 ore, you get 4-5 back. I posted a variation, where instead of getting more out of one unit if you are higher Prospect level, you have a chance of loss if you are lower Prospect. It comes down to the same thing, only the devs will need to stock the asteroids with larger stacks of ores at high level in the latter case.
Honestly, the transfer of money from high level players to new players is one purpose of an auction house. If new players are just gathering loot that they then vendor to earn money, then they are just creating a new generation of players that will eventually be high level players with lots of money. The idea is for money to be transferred around, not just at the highest levels, but at all levels. But that is another topic. -
[quote name='will' timestamp='1314721273' post='45376']
Ammo cannot be dismantled simply because it is manufactured in 'stacks', 1 of each comp will create up to 2000 units of ammo. If the terminal could recognize a full stack of ammo for dismantling, maybe it could be implemented, but it's probably a client limitation.
[/quote]
I didn't say there wasn't a logical reason for it, just that it's inconsistent.
It's actually quite handy, since you need only one unit of ammo for an analysis. However, I could definately see the humor in dismantling one ammo unit, building a stack out of it, dismantling a unit, building another stack, and so on. Infinite ammo!
No, obviously that can't work that way.
in Player Advocate Forum
Posted
If the JT has 1/2 Psi shield, and 1/2 Recharge shields, then groups just take a JW and a TT and get the full effect of both. Not to mention those skills don't require group membership to cast them. [/quote]
Honestly, I've considered the possibility of giving up Recharge Shields for Psi Shield. If you keep attacks from hitting the sheilds, you don't need to recharge them, and the two powers are conceptually similar. The only balance point is making sure they both "restore" the same amount of damage.
The main reason I don't seriously consider this suggestion is that this doesn't in any way give the Seeker a unique skill. The JD can already do this for a team. So the JS would be giving up its common trader skill for a slightly less common Jenquai one. Plus, it is more difficult to monitor the condition of Psi Shield since you don't get feed back from the shield bars. You don't know it's down until the shield starts taking damage.
Honestly, I don't know what the obsession with Psi Shield is. Everyone seems to act like the Seeker is "broken" because it doesn't get Psi Shield. That's what Recharge Shields is for, and it's a better power. Psi Shield was designed for the Jenquai Defender to allow it to operate as a warrior with L8 shields. On the Seeker it is just a borrowed power which makes it LESS unique.
If you want a mental shield of some kind, my suggestion is to make it UNIQUE. Not a Psi Shield, but something more suited to the Seeker. Possibly something that serves the same purpose as Hull Patch, instead of Recharge Shields.