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Faction Specific Debuffs


Kenu

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What do you guys think about introducing items that only affect mobs that have a certain faction assigned?

Examples: 

equipable device that gives a damage bonus vs chavez

activated device that causes a large mass increase to drones and causes weapon failure (shocking them with electricity to shut them down temporarily)

 

there seem to be a lot of possibilities and I think it could add some unique twists to certain mobs.

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Hmm, depending on how it's done sounds like a nice new thing for the support classes.  Divide them up between the Scout, JT, TT, JE, PT, and PE.  I'm not so sure that specific factions necessarily work, unless you have something like a Chavez raid in the works, comparable to the RD base.  Then it becomes VERY useful.  Now if you have specific debuffers some of which work for mechanical mobs only, while the other ones only work for Bio mobs that would be an interesting twist. 

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My only problem with the current debuff scheme is that it was deliberately designed to force a specific class to depend on another for some of their highest debuff values.

 

Gorgon Debuff item is Terran only.  Terrans don't use Impact, Progens do.  With the vastly solo-oriented player base all this does is force people to dual box odd combinations of toons.

 

If this scheme were to be open to all classes/races without restrictions, I could agree that it would be useful.  But if it follows the story line, then Terrans would not be able to use debuffs against Chavez... Likewise Jenquai would not be able to use debuffs v.s. Red Dragons it loses its usefulness very quickly. 

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The whole point of spreading the debuffs around is to get the classes to work together for maximum effectiveness.   Giving every race all the debuffs it could possibly need, undermines the interdependence between the races & classes and makes it less likely that players, of different races or classes, will work together.

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The whole point of spreading the debuffs around is to get the classes to work together for maximum effectiveness.   Giving every race all the debuffs it could possibly need, undermines the interdependence between the races & classes and makes it less likely that players, of different races or classes, will work together.

I realize that is the purpose... But given the current play process all it has lead to is multi-boxing to get better performance... It does not necessarily increase player cooperation... Only in raid settings do you even see that anymore..

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I agree, and I do think there should be a place for solo play, especially where basic hunting & farming are concerned.  It's one of the reasons I favor more equipment choices at end game levels, and more things that are average to good, that drop outside of raids.  I see another problem if we implement the debuff devices, etc. for all classes, rather than mostly giving them to the support classes, is that other than the TT and 1 or 2 explorers, the support classes will be left behind for the raids.  If it's the case that people can complete raids without explorers, or traders other than the TT, then those classes will be left behind, as there is more loot for the remaining players.

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I agree, and I do think there should be a place for solo play, especially where basic hunting & farming are concerned.  It's one of the reasons I favor more equipment choices at end game levels, and more things that are average to good, that drop outside of raids.  I see another problem if we implement the debuff devices, etc. for all classes, rather than mostly giving them to the support classes, is that other than the TT and 1 or 2 explorers, the support classes will be left behind for the raids.  If it's the case that people can complete raids without explorers, or traders other than the TT, then those classes will be left behind, as there is more loot for the remaining players.

I have attended several raids... TT is essential, JS/PP is left out due to a lack of Hull Patch, not debuff options...

 

JE is always desired in raids for their recharge capabilities and jumpstart, PS/TS are acceptable secondaries but are almost never primary contenders for raid group composition.  People will often forgo a TS/PS in a formation for a second TT.  Again Debuffs never enter the consideration or TS and its L9 Explosive Debuff or PS with it's L9 Chemical debuff would find more traction in the RD Base raid specifically.  More than 2 jumpstarters at this point is considered redundant no matter what the combination and are often a dual-boxed, secondary concern, not necessarily required in primary group construction.

 

TE, PW, JD, TT are the primary classes desired for raids, even JD has limited use now and more than 2 in a major raid is often less desirable than more PWs or TTs.

 

I have participated in Gate raids, for example, in groups composed of only PWs and TTs with a high degree of success and no deaths.  3 PWs, 2 TTs and 1 JD can take down the gate with ease.. Any other classes were played as secondary, non-grouped, dual boxed options, not as a primary consideration. 

 

There are people who multi-box six or more ships at once, two such  groups have taken down GoBB and Controller with varied degrees of success.  Two live players, 12 toons.. Solo play and group play are no longer able to be defined in the manner you are considering Terrel... It is becoming a thing of the past.

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The point being, that if you can do the raids without specific classes, then there's no reason to bring them.  If it can be made so that they're needed, and that you can no longer succeed without them, then the other classes will get more play.  Without those fixes, I don't expect the other professions to be used as much, and giving these debuffs to already needed classes, doesn't help the problem, it only makes it worse.

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Raids are only 10% of the game... If you cripple all of the PWs, TEs and other classes from being able to solo because they can't get a viable debuff and play without support of other classes for simple content, then which is worse? 

 

I have all 9 classes now... All built up and equipped with the best I can get for them via raids and trade.... I have ONE toon that I can say is an effective solo play with the flexibility to go anywhere and kill about anything I want.. Without dual boxing....

 

My JD.....

 

If you ask me.. that is broken...

 

My JD can kill almost anything in game short of a raid... my PW can't say that, nor can my TE... They are crippled because of there dependance on other classes for support... They can't just fly solo into any sector and go nuts like my JD can... I have to pair them up with an Explorer or Healer to even have a chance at long-term time on target... JD can go all day... Why?

 

Because JD can debuff for max damage on it's primary damage type.... The other two, PW and TE, cannot... so they have to fight longer and get swarmed ... That is not balance, that is not right... and it is because of the "You need to group" mentality that forces me to Dual-Box... If you introduce more of the same.. That compounds the problem when you consider we have a small/diminishing player base, solo play has to be a primary consideration... Grouping is dead...

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There may not be a way to fix it...

 

TT will always outclass the other two builder/support ships... One reason... Hull Patch....

 

JE will always outclass TS/PS... why?  it can hide...

 

But I should not need a TT to solo-play my TE either... TE needs to have some level of self sufficiency...

 

PW can Shield sap for limited healing and can debuff all of their primary damage types (Impact/chem)

 

TE gets impact debuff?  Plasma/Explosive are the primary damage types for TE... TE can't debuff them effectively... TE is more crippled that PW when solo...

 

Fix that... It is more important than trying to fix PP/JS if the Devs insist on not finding a way to give those classes hull patch they will always be second chair to the TT...

 

No amount of debuff items will correct for that...

Edited by Daath
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I'm not so sure that it cannot be fixed, but it's a matter of improving the classes that aren't needed, rather than the classes that do get to play in the raids.   Even if it cannot be fixed, why make the problem of unneeded classes worse, by making the gap between the needed classes & the unneeded ones wider?

 

TW can debuff plasma, but should not have the same firepower as the PW, or be as stealthy as the JW (from Megan's description of the TW). 

 

TW can also use the Rada, Chang Lung's Pride, Hellbore (original & Ya Ze Long versions), Pulsing Bullywere eye,  for plasma debuff.  The PM ones go to the Jenquai though, except for the Rada mini-line.

 

I'm not so sure that the JE will always outclass the PE.  The PE can JS and contribute some firepower.  They can also be the alternate for gravity link.  I think that the Scout needs some help, though it can be the alternate hull patcher.

 

I do agree that the TT, in a raid situation, outclasses the other traders but I don't see how making them outclass the other 2 traders by even more helps the game.  Outside of raids I can see how the PT could find use in a group, since they can Recharge Shields and contribute more firepower than the TT.

 

 

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I'm not so sure that it cannot be fixed, but it's a matter of improving the classes that aren't needed, rather than the classes that do get to play in the raids.   Even if it cannot be fixed, why make the problem of unneeded classes worse, by making the gap between the needed classes & the unneeded ones wider?

 

TW can debuff plasma, but should not have the same firepower as the PW, or be as stealthy as the JW (from Megan's description of the TW). 

 

TW can also use the Rada, Chang Lung's Pride, Hellbore (original & Ya Ze Long versions), Pulsing Bullywere eye,  for plasma debuff.  The PM ones go to the Jenquai though, except for the Rada mini-line.

 

I'm not so sure that the JE will always outclass the PE.  The PE can JS and contribute some firepower.  They can also be the alternate for gravity link.  I think that the Scout needs some help, though it can be the alternate hull patcher.

 

I do agree that the TT, in a raid situation, outclasses the other traders but I don't see how making them outclass the other 2 traders by even more helps the game.  Outside of raids I can see how the PT could find use in a group, since they can Recharge Shields and contribute more firepower than the TT.

Chang Lung's Pride and Hellbore don't count for TE.... They are rare, raid drops... The common player can't even hope to obtain those with any degree of reliability... L5 Plasma debuff is insufficient. This Bullywere item you speak of, does it drop in game now?  First I've seen it..

 

The point I was trying to make is... If you are going to make faction related debuffs they should be either race limited or open to all and not class restricted... It would only serve to inspire more multi-boxing reasons and decrease solo capability of the other classes.  The direction this game is going with population we either have to fully embrace multi-boxing or bring Solo play up to a viable level.  The devs can choose that direction... Grouping for Raids is only a minor facet of what I am talking about... Given my current situation with raids and my opinion of that entire mess, raids are the LEAST of my concerns.... I play solo 99% of the time... My TE is broken for solo play, period... I would rather see something that makes her more viable, not less...

 

UPDATE: Pulsing bullywere eye is not currently in game... only one person that has one in game at present, not even sure how that came to be.. Another non-viable option.

Edited by Daath
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I'm reading this post, and don't wish to push it off course, but one thing to keep in mind is that many of the classes that you have aren't how they were designed. For just one example 'Hull Patch' was to be specific to the TE (Terran Explorer) but when the decision was made not to release those classes it was added to the TT, which is what made it so superior.

 

There's lots of changes that could be done, but they would fundamentally change the game.

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I'm reading this post, and don't wish to push it off course, but one thing to keep in mind is that many of the classes that you have aren't how they were designed. For just one example 'Hull Patch' was to be specific to the TE (Terran Explorer) but when the decision was made not to release those classes it was added to the TT, which is what made it so superior.

 

There's lots of changes that could be done, but they would fundamentally change the game.

 

Oh, I totally understand what was done, and for the most part I agree with those changes.  But EnB was originally designed to have thousands of single players involved.  Grouping up with a few folks for XP wasn't hard then.  But in the environment we see today, in the EMU, we have something quite different.  What 100-200 players and actual human beings looking at their screen and operating ships is between 20 and 100 per day.  Alts and multi-boxer setups contribute more than 1/2 of the online population at any given time.  This was done out of necessity by the players to overcome their inability to adequately solo their toons. 

 

That being said Any "new" content that is not basically derived from the original EnB should take that into consideration, continued operation under the idea that we have thousands of players and that forcing people to group to play is only going to continue that need for Multi-boxing. Even now many of the single-toon solo players feel out gunned, out performed and out classed by the combat groups created by the players who have managed to wire together 6 ships into a cohesive unit and operate them with some degree of proficiency. 

 

We should look at ways to level the field. 

 

Look at it from this perspective.  If I were a Terran Enforcer, dependent on my missiles to fight, the idea that I would not be able to increase the effectiveness of my weapons by use of technology that is available to other members of my race (Terran Scout and a Salamander Debuff) would be hard to accept.

 

The Jenquai are relatively self-sufficent individual ships, even the Jenquai Seeker has more than adequate means to solo combat when compared to the Warrior class of the Terrans.  That is flawed design, even if it was originally intentional it is still flawed.  A careful rethinking of what small changes can be made to bring the Class Groups (Warriors, traders, explorers) on par with their racial peers should be conducted. 

 

For TE that would begin with a simple item... Something similar to the Cassel's Wither that any Progen can obtain that would debuff Explosive.  That would enable the TE to become nearly self sufficient in combat and at least bring it up to par with the Progen Warrior (Who has Cassel's Wither AND a built in Debuff for Impact in their skill Grav Link).  Something similar is needed for the TT since they too have the same basic missile options as TE, so make it "Terran Only" either by device limitation or by mission requirement.

 

All of these ideas for "new content" when we have content that is "pending" for nearly a year now, diminishing player base and a driving thirst for new content is moot if we don't start looking at making EnB Solo Friendly as well as Group Oriented.  Jenquai don't need very much help there... Progens could use a little tweaking maybe (I never understood why a race can't build all types of ship components for example).  Terrans have their advantages, but they are forced into a support role and TE is utterly castrated as a solo warrior class when compared to it's peers.

 

The ONLY reason TE is desired for raids is two skills Hacking and Bio-Repression. And from my standpoint, looking at my TE's potential and faults, that is the only thing they are good for.  I challenge you to find ways to make every class solo-viable, this WILL push them into greater use in raids/groups.  Forced interdependence only makes weak classes. 

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I'm reading this post, and don't wish to push it off course, but one thing to keep in mind is that many of the classes that you have aren't how they were designed. For just one example 'Hull Patch' was to be specific to the TE (Terran Explorer) but when the decision was made not to release those classes it was added to the TT, which is what made it so superior.

 

There's lots of changes that could be done, but they would fundamentally change the game.

 

 

 

Thanks Kyp, that reinforces what I always suspected, the 'bonus' skills given after the game went live, were in deed meant for the missing classes. :)

Oh wait... the bonus skill for the TT was 'Shield Charge' iirc, so I am still wrong... nothing new there lol, I spend a good deal of my time wrong about things. And no, I'm not a weatherman by profession. :P

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The bonus skills you're looking at were intended, each class had a 135 skill, we just never made it to full implementation (unless they did it after I left and the internet is hiding it from me) ;)

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