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Pakkrat

Suggestion: Second tier refining hazards

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It was suggested that I post this idea even if it goes nowhere. Here goes.

Do you remember how being attacked with satellite and trash in your hold can cause you to lose the job?

I propose this: some refined, second (and third tier) materials become unstable, volatile or corruptible if the vessel transporting it takes a hit to its hull and a "damage a system" result is rolled. Add a check for presence of refined catalysts, alloys, etc. If they're in the cargo hold, let the incoming damage, especially plasma, chemical, explosive and in rare cases EMP destroy or slag a refined stack ( of whatever size).

The slagged substance could turn into Debris I or slag of some type. The end result I leave to imaginative Devs.

Those refined ores are in their pristine and factory ready states. A hull penetration could taint or otherwise make impure the stack. This could cause anywhere from devaluating the stack, causing it to become radioactive, corrosive, explode, or downright derelicting the vessel. Perhaps the damage could be staggered up the tech level I through IX. A level IX refined Kronosium could derelict a vessel if it was set off by a direct hit.

The reason for this post is that refined ores are not in use much in the game. Also there is no value to them other than what they can be used in manufacturing. An element of danger in their transport makes them valuable in terms of hazard pay. Mining in Real Life is dangerous. Refining in Real Life is also dangerous depending on what the mined substance is. My suggestion is to make having these refined tiers of ores dangerous to transport.

We already see the effect that Wormhole skill has on trade goods. Perhaps some trade goods could be just as delicate if the transporting vessel takes hull damage and a "damage a system" is rolled.

"Your Nanobots have become bathed in plasma from that last hit suffering 5% loss of value."
"The chemical damage you suffered has corroded the Construction Equipment and is now worth 5% less."
"Explosions have ripped through the refined catalysts onboard causing an eruption cascade. Brace for further hull damage."

The idea is sound and made more realistic in that some game items are dangerous to move around.

"That last energy blast killed your passenger(s) when it penetrated the hull. Mission forfeited."

This in turn could be an addition to better dynamics in trade runs, mining and transport of refined ores to a fellow pilot at a nearby station. It may add some value in the game's economy.

Lastly, put in a chance of failure for refining. Say 1% (level I ores) to 9% (level IX ores) chance of failing at the refining terminal. This makes the resource more valuable, a chance of lost time and effort. It could also make mining more valuable in terms of Explore or Trade Experience.

Sound off if you have more ideas along this line of thinking.

Live from the Economy Department at NET-7 SOL, this is the Pakkrat.

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I remember carrying garbage and atm the graphics are correct, but, when you had garbage in your hold, you started taking a small amount of shield and then hull damage if you held onto them for too long because the garbage had an environmental effect on your ship.

 

A few times in live I remember being incapacitated at a gate because I was afk and forgot I had garbage jobs on-board

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The cloud forming around your ship should be a tip-off that carrying garbage/waste is not healthy for pilot or ship. Those jobs should be completed as quickly as possible.

Engaging in combat and taking damage while carrying sats already results in mission failure and a loss of XP and time. Adding damage to ores/gasses while mining that can result in ship damage when mining or refining won't go over well IMO.

We need to think of ways to bring more players into the game not more ways to drive them away.
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The cloud forming around your ship should be a tip-off that carrying garbage/waste is not healthy for pilot or ship. Those jobs should be completed as quickly as possible.

Engaging in combat and taking damage while carrying sats already results in mission failure and a loss of XP and time. Adding damage to ores/gasses while mining that can result in ship damage when mining or refining won't go over well IMO.

We need to think of ways to bring more players into the game not more ways to drive them away.

 

I agree with this.  I think a better thing to do, is use refines as more of a positive instead of a negative. 

 

In EnB Origins, there were missions & projects that required specific ores, or specific refining of ores (and in some cases drops like derfresser phlegm).  Use those as a template for new mining missions/projects with new refines.  Over time as equipment is added into the game, have some new components that require new refines.   While in some cases a trader could rip a comp to get the ores to make the new refine, he'd still need an explorer to do the actual refining.  In other cases, the ores would have to be found in game & refined.   There could even be, over time, some items (equipment) that need specific alloys or new alloys, as components in the equipment.

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The cloud forming around your ship should be a tip-off that carrying garbage/waste is not healthy for pilot or ship. Those jobs should be completed as quickly as possible.

Engaging in combat and taking damage while carrying sats already results in mission failure and a loss of XP and time. Adding damage to ores/gasses while mining that can result in ship damage when mining or refining won't go over well IMO.

We need to think of ways to bring more players into the game not more ways to drive them away.

I agree with CP. Mining can already be a chore, there is no reason to make it more annoying by adding things like refine failure. I think failing to refine a stack of level 9 gas and losing everything would cause me to break another mouse and keyboard.

 

Terrell has some good points that would make ores more useful in the future without making mining a pain in the ass.

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This might be doable as an NPC/jobs use for ores. As part of the economy, I think anything that makes the trade of ores harder, instead of easier, is going to make them less valuable, not more. If you make the supply too scarce, the consumers simply move on to something that has a more abundant supply.

 

There are ores that aren't used in crafting, though, like Tazeron or Mordanite, which are unique to certain missions or quests. This could be expanded into something "radioactive" which would decay or even potentially explode if exposed to forces such as combat or Wormholes.

 

Alternately, give miners the ability to create "isotopes" from raw ore in a process similar to refining. Should transport of these materials fail, they revert back to the refined version of the ore. So they aren't lost, they just aren't useful to the NPC any more.

 

On live, there were pirates who would intercept traders running goods. This was met with massive resistance on the part of the players, but I've always through if CERTAIN goods exposed you to risk of pirate attack, like contraband or something, then you would know that was a possibility and stay close to the keyboard instead of going AFK. This could be a similar thing, certain ores or "isotopes" could attract pirates that want to steal your cargo. As long as you don't deal in those items, you avoid that possibility.

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If I recall correctly, push missions in the original game could sometimes be local police forces scanning you for contraband, and fining you if they found any.

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If I recall correctly, push missions in the original game could sometimes be local police forces scanning you for contraband, and fining you if they found any.

That sounds like something that fits with the concept, although I don't remember ever running into one myself. That's really what the pirates were, though. They would gravity well you and ask you for an amount of money, and if you didn't pay, they attacked. I guess the players found it more acceptable to be stopped and fined by police instead of pirates. ;)

 

What specifically was the contraband?

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The cloud forming around your ship should be a tip-off that carrying garbage/waste is not healthy for pilot or ship. Those jobs should be completed as quickly as possible.

Engaging in combat and taking damage while carrying sats already results in mission failure and a loss of XP and time. Adding damage to ores/gasses while mining that can result in ship damage when mining or refining won't go over well IMO.

We need to think of ways to bring more players into the game not more ways to drive them away.

I agree with CPwings here.. There is no reason to add more irritating aspects to the game.. Just the recent addition of failed debuffs has caused me a bit of frustration.

 

Also 2 additional points....

 

1. Who flies around with stacks of refined ores in their hold? 

2. Real life issues do not translate well into games.  I play to have fun, not be annoyed by little crap all the time.

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That sounds like something that fits with the concept, although I don't remember ever running into one myself. That's really what the pirates were, though. They would gravity well you and ask you for an amount of money, and if you didn't pay, they attacked. I guess the players found it more acceptable to be stopped and fined by police instead of pirates. ;)

 

What specifically was the contraband?

I think Mordanite was one of them.  There was a RD NPC on Chernevog that had a smuggling run to Paren Station, his goods might have qualified, but not sure since I didn't get caught transporting them. 

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I agree with this.  I think a better thing to do, is use refines as more of a positive instead of a negative. 

 

In EnB Origins, there were missions & projects that required specific ores, or specific refining of ores (and in some cases drops like derfresser phlegm).  Use those as a template for new mining missions/projects with new refines.  Over time as equipment is added into the game, have some new components that require new refines.   While in some cases a trader could rip a comp to get the ores to make the new refine, he'd still need an explorer to do the actual refining.  In other cases, the ores would have to be found in game & refined.   There could even be, over time, some items (equipment) that need specific alloys or new alloys, as components in the equipment.

 

I agree that in order to make ores more valuable in the game positive rather than negative changes are needed. This is something that I would like to see.

Ores would certainly be more valuable if the only way to build a sought after item is to obtain refined ores from source rather than by ripping components.

Would the concept here be that the actual complex alloys would never be ripped directly from a component but its constituent ores would be made available instead?

Then you would need an explorer to complete the task and produce ores missing from the dis-assembly process.

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I agree that in order to make ores more valuable in the game positive rather than negative changes are needed. This is something that I would like to see.

Ores would certainly be more valuable if the only way to build a sought after item is to obtain refined ores from source rather than by ripping components.

Would the concept here be that the actual complex alloys would never be ripped directly from a component but its constituent ores would be made available instead?

Then you would need an explorer to complete the task and produce ores missing from the dis-assembly process.

 

Yeah, that's essentially the idea.  Even if you can rip some of the ores for a particular comp, in some cases there would be ores that you have to get from an explorer, as well as alloys.   In the case of comps that require new alloys,  they'd mostly be non-vendor comps that are otherwise manufacturable.  If there are vendor comps with alloys required, they wouldn't share alloys with non-vendor comps.   The recipes for said comps could be obtained through missions specific to traders, rather than drops, so you can't farm mobs for them.   A TT, PT, or JT would do a particular mission, and the recipe for the components in question would be given either as a reward, or as part of the mission, where the comp is used in the mission reward.  This would also be a way to introduce more equipment into the game over time. 

 

In some cases, as new drops are added into the game, alloys could be components in making those items.  Again you'd need a miner to provide the alloy, since you couldn't get said alloy from ripping comps.  Those things could be used in new equipment that's fairly nice, but doesn't have to be awesome.   For things that are fairly nice, but not awesome, simply make the new alloys from fairly common ores, and simply have explorers mine the ore, refine it into the alloy, and sell it to the traders.  By using common ores to make the alloys, it doesn't get to the point where getting the alloy is so difficult that the equipment in question isn't worth the effort required to build it for average to good items.  For items intended to be awesome or rare, then the ores to make the alloy needed to make the item, can be less common.

 

As for new drops, those items that use alloys as components in their construction, could drop like normal items, have their recipes as rewards for missions, or some combination of both.   This new addition of alloys to building, would probably apply for mid to high level items, so that the player's use of it is sufficient to the effort required. 

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Hmmm. Interesting.  I'm not sure giving grief to low level refiners is worth the grief?  However, perhaps making some of the more specialist stuff difficult is quite appropriate?  Things like b-silicon, glass cover plates, hydrazine, positive plates, zirconium dioxide, the dark matter refines, tazeron, beakers, the eye.  Basically anything that is a compound with a specialist application.  I think I have a fairly complete list of all these compounds...

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Hmmm. Interesting.  I'm not sure giving grief to low level refiners is worth the grief?  However, perhaps making some of the more specialist stuff difficult is quite appropriate?  Things like b-silicon, glass cover plates, hydrazine, positive plates, zirconium dioxide, the dark matter refines, tazeron, beakers, the eye.  Basically anything that is a compound with a specialist application.  I think I have a fairly complete list of all these compounds...

 

For low level players I tend to agree, since the amount of XP to reach the next level,  in any particular type of XP, increases as you increase your level in that type of XP.  I don't see making a L3 since a player wouldn't need them for very long, before they're looking for L4 of that item, especially if it's a weapon, shield, or reactor.  I could see a few starting around L5 give or take, but most of the items would be L7 or higher.  Now it were a low level item, that was a key to entering a sector, like the maelstroms in the original game, I could see it there, since there'd likely remain a use for it for as long as a key was needed for some particular purpose..

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Those suggestions would certainly make the most (arguably) boring part of the game (flying between destinations) more interesting, I can see how people would be against it.  Perhaps another mission option to transport items would be a good way to do this, with the understanding that any transportation missions could/will have dangers.  Such as being caught by police, unstable items being transported and so on.

 

I do have to agree with an earlier poster, that I would rather see more demand for ore by players than making it harder.  I mine for xp because almost nobody needs any ore I obtain, especially below 9.  One thought that occurred to me is that perhaps a chance that a trader ripping ores from a comp could have a failure, or contaminated end result.  That might sway things slightly to have them at least check for ores before using one or more comps to get what they need, or ending up with contaminated ore.  Just a thought.

 

I think certain types of ore (raw or not) could be likely to draw attention, weather from pirates, police or whatever, sounds like a good idea.  Perhaps it would fit better into an overarching story such as maybe the RDs are working on some project that requires a lot of radioactive material, so they attack anyone they detect carrying such.

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