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Eliminating the Jenquai Explorer?


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I'm with Growlz on this.

Personally, the payback for using no ammunition is the use of energy / EMP and in rarity plasma.

"Payback"? An interesting choice of word there.

Thank you for your comment concerning the issues presented in this thread. I always appreciate it when the Devs keep in touch with us.

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For those who think that JE's shouldn't have plasma beams answer this. Why are there mobs in the orefields, where JE is supposed to spend most of his solo play time, that are impossible to damage with energy or emp beams? If it's unbalanced for JE to have a decent selection of plasma beams, how is it not equally unbalanced to fill the orefieds we're supposed to mine with enemies that immune to, or in the case of high level manes HEALED by, our 3 meager weapons? Why should the weapons capable of even inflicting damage on one of our most common opponents be more rare, than our most common opponent is common?

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For those who think that JE's shouldn't have plasma beams answer this. Why are there mobs in the orefields, where JE is supposed to spend most of his solo play time, that are impossible to damage with energy or emp beams? If it's unbalanced for JE to have a decent selection of plasma beams, how is it not equally unbalanced to fill the orefieds we're supposed to mine with enemies that immune to, or in the case of high level manes HEALED by, our 3 meager weapons? Why should the weapons capable of even inflicting damage on one of our most common opponents be more rare, than our most common opponent is common?

/Agrees 100%

I guess it's just as they say, "Payback" is a . . .

I really think that's just such a clear signal why anyone starting up a new Explorer char has almost no reason to consider a JE vs. the other two classes.

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guys don't worry about him he is the progen content dev, just keep him away from kenu... remember byakhee is also the one that put the way oversized grav wells in lagarto (the ones that cover asteroid navs that were never in grav wells in live) and designed all those progen missions, he's a bit masochistic.

we need to wait on alot of development areas but mob AI is the big one, right now they fly through you as part of their regular flight path, in live i remmeber mining unseen and undisturbed within 2k of a hostile mob and being able to cloak to actually hide from something over my own CL (which you can't currently do).

i don't remember any beam range damage penalties like Terrell was talking about but that may have been in beta or early live, it surely wasn't the case for the last year and a half of the game.

JE was my first toon and really my favorite in many ways, the explorer classes were great because they could choose to play totally differently than the other 2/3rds of the classes. right now just don't punish/dissapoint yourself, play combat toons or play other games, this is just too early in development to actually enjoy this class. if anything we need to stop feeling persecuted and just realize that stuff isn't developed, if they were trying to call this beta or saying we're going live next month i'd laugh or cry or some combination thereof but lets wait to see them work on it a bit more, and maybe if we're lucky get rid of some of these poorly thought out xp changes, like the current group xp code.

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Beam damage penalties were discussed in the patch dated January 21, 2003. You can read it the patch notes here.

Here's the relevant part:

In Earth & Beyond all damage modifiers are applied in an additive manner. This means that all damage modifiers are first summed then applied to the base damage of a weapon. Therefore in a case where only the weapon skill damage modifier is in play the calculation would be (Base Damage)*(1+Weapon Skill Modifier). For example, we have a Base Damage of 50 and a weapon skill modifier of 100% (which translates into a modifier of 1.00). The damage would be calculated as 50*(1+1.00), or 50*2, or 100. When a second modifier is introduced into the calculation the formula becomes (Base Damage)*(1+(Sum of All Modifiers)). If we introduce Stealth Strike, a 100% damage modifier, into our example the calculation would be (Base Damage)*(1+(Weapon Skill Modifier)+(Stealth Strike Modifier)), or 50*(1+(1.00)+(1.00)), or 150. These calculations yield the mean damage. Damage volatility, which varies according to damage type, is then applied to the mean damage. In the case of energy damage the modifier is +/-25%, so our example that includes Stealth Strike could yield results ranging from 112-188. Finally, there is a range component for all beam weapons. At max range, a beam only does 50% of its maximum damage. At half of max range and below, beams are capable of putting out 100% damage. So, at max range, our 112-188 damage is scaled down to 56-94

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guys don't worry about him he is the progen content dev, just keep him away from kenu... remember byakhee is also the one that put the way oversized grav wells in lagarto (the ones that cover asteroid navs that were never in grav wells in live) and designed all those progen missions, he's a bit masochistic.

You made me fall out of my chair laughing so hard. :blink:

- Marco

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yeah....lots of fun trying to get to a sector of space you once could find hidden navs to and warp your way there and enjoy your game play, oh yeah....boy did i love that....

now your pretty better off forgetting Roc ever existed and go on your merry way ignoring that part of the system until you can withstand the lv 66 manes that were never there in live attacking you....oh wait....you cant, even in a group,... LOL...my bad, take the quality loss, it's no big deal, LOL....what fun WE are having!!

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I don't remember seeing L66 Manes in Live. Highest I saw in Live were CL56 Brilliant Manes, guarding orefields in BBW, along with CL48 Radiant Manes, CL51 Splendid Manes, and CL53 Scintillating Manes. 51s being the most common in the pure L9 fields.

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I don't remember seeing L66 Manes in Live. Highest I saw in Live were CL56 Brilliant Manes, guarding orefields in BBW, along with CL48 Radiant Manes, CL51 Splendid Manes, and CL53 Scintillating Manes. 51s being the most common in the pure L9 fields.

exactly

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Kenu yer gotta nice short name fer me to use n Byake is thkin lets make sum misn fer Jenqi

Mine 'ud be:

Trget Gate Gun 'n win!

Ok guys lets moik it like live, lets rmove all new class or not huh? Lgrto 'as dem mobs now 'n spprt Pgen missn but mez not gunna moik mre pgen mssn for play servr but theyd be on da test servr so 'ave plnty time to 'elp Kenu wiz sum Prgn vs Jenpi mssns 'n 'ave sum fun wiz mssn talk treez loik dis 'un. Cant wait til Kenu giz mez sum missn n den can do propr war n cvert misn fer all. Iz yer dunna loik it yer dinna 'ave ter do dem so shove da archs up yer engin if yer dunna wanna do dem. Boo hoo dinna cry ter me 'bout dem 'ard misn coz der levl 30 iz loik der orig L30 misn but easir n der udar misns dunna need done fer Hull Upgrd but any Jenpi misn I loik ter do gonna use a NPC chtt loik dis un so git used ta it.

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Kenu yer gotta nice short name fer me to use n Byake is thkin lets make sum misn fer Jenqi

Mine 'ud be:

Trget Gate Gun 'n win!

Ok guys lets moik it like live, lets rmove all new class or not huh? Lgrto 'as dem mobs now 'n spprt Pgen missn but mez not gunna moik mre pgen mssn for play servr but theyd be on da test servr so 'ave plnty time to 'elp Kenu wiz sum Prgn vs Jenpi mssns 'n 'ave sum fun wiz mssn talk treez loik dis 'un. Cant wait til Kenu giz mez sum missn n den can do propr war n cvert misn fer all. Iz yer dunna loik it yer dinna 'ave ter do dem so shove da archs up yer engin if yer dunna wanna do dem. Boo hoo dinna cry ter me 'bout dem 'ard misn coz der levl 30 iz loik der orig L30 misn but easir n der udar misns dunna need done fer Hull Upgrd but any Jenpi misn I loik ter do gonna use a NPC chtt loik dis un so git used ta it.

Rough translation:

Kenu, you've got a nice, short name for me to use - and Byake (sp?) is thinking, "Let's make some missions for the Jenquai".

Mine would be: "Target Gate Gun, and win!"

Ok guys... let's make it like Live, and remove all new classes... or not, huh? Lagarto has them mobs now, and support Progen missions but I'm not going to make more Progen missions for the play server, but they'd be on the test server so (we'd) have plenty of time to help Kenu with some Progen vs. Jenquai missions, and have some fun with mission talk trees like this one.

I can't wait until Kenu gives me some missions and then do proper war and covert missions for all. If you don't like it, you did't have to do them - so shove the arcos up your engine if you don't want to do them (those missions).

Boo-hoo, don't cry to me about them hard missions because the level 30 is like the original level 30 mision, but easier than the other missions - (you) don't need (to do) for the Jenquai Level 30 hull upgrade... but any Jenquai missions I like to do will have an NPC chat that looks like (the original faux Cockney accent role-playing writing style) this... so get used to it.

I had to do this in order to make some sense of what he was saying... and now, I just might have to play my PW a little more to see them Cockney-talking Progens. :)

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As an aside to all of this... I really enjoyed playing a JE in live... I lucked out and wound up with a Ghost's Edge, and some other uber plasma beam (forget which) from one of those old Tada-O gate runs.

But thus far, I've enjoyed playing a Terran Scout, because I'll give up the stealth/cloak for the ability to kite a few pesky Chavez or Manes that are a few CL's above me... and have some hope of doing damage, or dragging them far enough away that I can warp/mine/scoot.

Playing a JE that cannot have any hope of either avoiding or fighting energy-healed mobs...? I can GUARANTEE that in that kind of environment, especially with uber-powered mine guardians... I'll be cherry-picking the 'roids instead of clearing the fields out. Not out of spite, but out of survival.

If the mine guardians *must* be 10-15 CLs above the expected player level/resource level... then please consider making those elite mine fields of one type (only gases, or only radioactives, or only hydrocarbons, or only metals, etc) instead of mixed-types of over 30 different elements that'll simply get cherry-picked and might not be cleared and respawned for days, if not weeks.

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Thank you for the translation!

BTW, is there some Babelfish-like program I can run other posts like that through to understand what is being said? :)

Might be, but I had to actually stop and mentally do this, as the first six times reading that actually dropped my IQ by a few points.

No offense to Growlz, of course... Ms. Vinda seems to enjoy tweaking about the genetic code for the Progen speech centers for some reason. :lol:

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As an aside to all of this... I really enjoyed playing a JE in live... I lucked out and wound up with a Ghost's Edge, and some other uber plasma beam (forget which) from one of those old Tada-O gate runs.

But thus far, I've enjoyed playing a Terran Scout, because I'll give up the stealth/cloak for the ability to kite a few pesky Chavez or Manes that are a few CL's above me... and have some hope of doing damage, or dragging them far enough away that I can warp/mine/scoot.

Playing a JE that cannot have any hope of either avoiding or fighting energy-healed mobs...? I can GUARANTEE that in that kind of environment, especially with uber-powered mine guardians... I'll be cherry-picking the 'roids instead of clearing the fields out. Not out of spite, but out of survival.

If the mine guardians *must* be 10-15 CLs above the expected player level/resource level... then please consider making those elite mine fields of one type (only gases, or only radioactives, or only hydrocarbons, or only metals, etc) instead of mixed-types of over 30 different elements that'll simply get cherry-picked and might not be cleared and respawned for days, if not weeks.

I also enjoyed playing the JE in Live, but it took getting uber beams, and levelling up PLs to be able to deal with the energy immune mobs in orefields. Found that PLs a HoDo, and Fold Space made fighting off the mobs easier, at the cost of inferior reactor performance. The other options were using GoD, DG, and Gaze of Amah, or Gaze of Amah and 2x EoD. (Gaze of Amah and 2x EoD did less DPS, but all 3 were 6 second beams, and with 40% turbo on the Gaze of Amah there was just enough time to cloak between shots, or use Fold Space) Fold Space was more effective, due to taking less damage.

I have a Scout too, and while her starting sector is lacking in missions, she is more fun than the JE at this time, and more than she was in Live when she was a PE. Her ship is better looking too. In Live my JE built both Devices and reactors, for guildies, my Scout will be taking over device building, and my Seeker will do reactors since both can Negotiate. Being able to fight back when attacked, by kiting tactics and speed, is an improvment to my options being cloak and run, or teleport and run, or just plain run. My JE will then have more points to put into other skills. PLs will be the first thing I level up after 150. HoDo plus L8 Projectiles, plus properly working Fold Space, plus very low signature, equal death by 1000 cuts to enemies and more access to Plasma. This means you Manes, Ninja's Shurikens and Zet PLs are easily obtainable plasma weapons, with buffs.

Source: Slayerman's Database.

Stats:

GETCo Pittbull Sr.

L9 Plasma Beam

Damage (200%): 599.00 (898.5)

Type: Plasma

DPS (200%): 66.56 (99.83)

EPS: 18.56

Range: 1800.00

Energy: 167.00

Reload: 9.00

Buffs: None

*50% damage at maximum range, full damage at 50% range or less.

Nishido Ninja's Shuriken

L8 Projectile Launcher

Damage (200%): 95.00 (123.50)

DPS (200%): 50.00 (103.17)

EPS (200%): 14.21 (22.56)

Range: 3700.00

Rounds: 1

Energy: 27.00

Reload (200%): 1.90 (1.20)

Buffs: Improve Cloaking, Improve Beam Handling

Ammo types: Impact, Chem, & Plasma.

No range modifier with Projectile Weapons. Full damage for anything within range.

While I like PLs we shouldn't be the only class where our alternate weapon, is a better choice than the most common L9 plasma beam. On top of that said PL can be obtained from a vendor, while the Pitbull Sr. has to be looted.

I would think it's worse than that. If JE has little hope of avoiding orefield guardian mobs, and almost no hope of killing them, forget about JEs mining that orefield. Risk v. Reward equation, says mine elsewhere. Sentinels and Scouts might mine there, JEs will be left out. There shouldnt be an orefield that a JE, can't mine. Stealth and low sig should allow us to avoid fights, and we should have access to plasma beams for those fights that just can't be avoided, not just energy beams.

I think for the vast majority of orefields there shouldn't be anything higher than CL56 guarding them. And the 56s should be in pure level 9 orefields, that also have very valuable ores. (Valuable as in very useful, and rare compared to most). Such orefields should also be well hidden.

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There shouldnt be an orefield that a JE, can't mine. Stealth and low sig should allow us to avoid fights, and we should have access to plasma beams for those fights that just can't be avoided, not just energy beams.

I think for the vast majority of orefields there shouldn't be anything higher than CL56 guarding them. And the 56s should be in pure level 9 orefields, that also have very valuable ores. (Valuable as in very useful, and rare compared to most). Such orefields should also be well hidden.

Very much agreed.

And perhaps a JE-only "befriend" device or ability that reduces the modifier that causes the mob to aggro - anything to decrease your chances of going unnoticed by that uber-manes that's lurking behind those luscious lv.9 rocks you want to crack.

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Very much agreed.

And perhaps a JE-only "befriend" device or ability that reduces the modifier that causes the mob to aggro - anything to decrease your chances of going unnoticed by that uber-manes that's lurking behind those luscious lv.9 rocks you want to crack.

As a JE from beta to sunset I would also have to agree almost completely.

I only differ in that it would be nice here, with new sectors and classe it would be interesting if scouts and sentinels had a few devices/weaps/reactors etc that were class specific and build only, not drops; now say that part of the recipe was an ore/gas/whatever that could only be found in 1 or 2 small sectors that only that class could enter. And those sectors would have high level mobs appropriate to projectile and missile users.

just a thought, but anyway i agree that no roid field should be inaccessible to a proper level JE for the field based on overpowered mobs.

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Is the coma not back in the game yet?

I think it is, however, if you use a Coma on a mob, it will aggro. That helps you win fights, but doesn't help you avoid them.

If there was a de-aggro line of devices for JE to use, they would have to have some restrictions on it. The mob stops attacking for a period of time, and only for as long as it remains undisturbed. There would probably also have to be a cooldown peroid on the device, that's a bit longer than most debuff devices of the same level.

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i thought for a moment we might actually get through a thread that mentions jenquai without having to hear about terrells PL weilding JE settup... i was wrong again...

last i tried to use or heard about people using coma's they didn't work, i'm not sure if this is because the debuff itself doesn't function, that mob pathing causes them to run you over due to lack of AI development, or that the mob scan range wasn't reduced enough for it to matter with my signature.

also there seems to be a misconception about the kind of 'cherry picking' that was trying to be addressed in live by adding roid clear bonuses, and that the current system doesn't seem to get. cherry picking reffered to just taking the desireable resource from the roid and leaving the undesired resource behind, this was a negative because without the entire roid being depleted the single asteroid did not respawn so over time there became a noticeable lack of the more desireable ores i.e. ammo ores. the original devs never intended us to be out there strip mining the fields, of course you'd only want to mine one or two types of rocks, that only makes sense they just wanted to encourage propper respawn so that others could have a go at them as well.

moving to this field clearing bonus system is just silly and the bonus on the roid should be based on the ammount of ore and level of ore not just the level of the roid. i know we had some actual pictures of people mining what they mined and the bonus xp on screen on our old forums, but that number shouldn't be static and it shouldn't be so many times more than the base mining xp that it was the aim in itself. as is currently the base mining xp (the ammount you would share with others in a group) is dismally small and makes for mining groups not being an enticing prospect for leveling.

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i thought for a moment we might actually get through a thread that mentions jenquai without having to hear about terrells PL weilding JE settup... i was wrong again...

agreed.... honestly... I personally think its a load of crap. Sure it is doable (but he required coma anyways and foldspace???), in live, there was NOTHING a JE could do with PLs that a JE couldn't do with L9 beams and a coma, faster and just as safe and not have to use foldspace. All the PLs are doing is making the je take x times longer to kill anything and have to carry a buttload of ammo.

Both my JEs had max foldspace... I do not remember ever needing to use it when I killed mobs, never used it to get away from mobs, hell... I only had it cause they had extra SPs sitting around.

Now, being the emu, with coma/mob pathing/scanning/cloak all buggy atm, yes JE are in a bad place.

But I'll never agree that PLs were EVER better than a L9 beam setup. In live, the only item a JE needed to kill anything was a coma 9.

Combat with a JE was the same as a JD.

Enter combat cloak, shoot mob, coma/chim mob, shoot mob some more, reenter combat cloak as needed, reapply coma as needed, collect loot.

Now that I think about it, I don't even think there is a big issue with needing more beams in the game. Two Pitt 9 starter beams/ruby disruptor or stonecleaver, Upgrade to DG, add a deadly focus, upgrade to GoD/EoDx2/Deadly focus combo as soon as possible and JEs could murder death kill anything they needed. Any weapons below L8/9 wpns just really don't matter, and even then, only L7/8/9 doesn't have a vendor plasma beam you can get.

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