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Eliminating the Jenquai Explorer?


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I was finally able to start my JE toon after fixing my machine. I was shocked at what I found in the newb area. Leveling explore has dragged to a molasses pace.

A guildy defined it better than me:

Slow respawn

Too many different kinds of roids packed into the mining area. (Cargo hold cannot take all these varieties at once.)

And a few other things that I forget, but people can add. (Been up with my dog and puters, so am too tired to remember.)

Have people been complaining about the JE training area? I don’t remember seeing any complaints about this area. So if it wasn’t broke, why was it tampered with?

I can’t bring up a command prompt to manipulate how I play. I’m stuck with what is there.

My first reactions were emotional. The Jenquai Explorer has always been my main toon. The act of mining I’ve always called, “The Dance.” It’s a mesmerizing process – relaxing in itself. With the new field clearing bonuses, the spawns have been dragging. Mining has become far more of a competition than it ever was before. There is no need for a field-clearing bonus if it makes roid spawns concurrent rather than consecutive. What you gain with field clearing you lose with slow spawn or traveling between roid fields. There goes “The Dance.”

Think of it in terms of combat in the warrior newb areas.

Make it so:

Mobs don’t spawn unless they are all killed.

Mobs don’t spawn unless all carcasses are cleaned out.

Mobs don’t spawn individually, but are dependent on all mobs being killed. And then there is the time you need to add for resetting mob spawn. Make it take minutes. Let people sit there in the newb areas and wait for spawns.

Then:

Take the loot and diversify it so those small cargo holds can’t possible stack more than ten items before they have to redock and sell.

That’s what has happened to the Jenquai Explorer

Now if there is some discussion relative to eliminating the JE. Just do it. There’s no real need to delay it. You’ve created soooo many interesting professions that the JE becomes unnecessary. I especially found it to be a disappointing profession after my determined attempt to make mine combat effective last go round.

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I'm sure you've all been wondering, but this slow asteroid respawn rate is a bug. We're not trying to eliminate the miner classes, these classes are simply being hampered by a bug. It's a more complicated bug than we thought but it's being worked on.

I'm sure part of this idea is also based off that the JS now has build reactors at an earlier level than the JE. JE's are not builders so this makes sense. Plus they are still able to build reactors so it's not like they've been nerfed.

What's wrong with the JE starting area? The roid fields are too large? Roid fields are kind of messy at the moment. Eventually those roid fields will be mostly iron and copper like they used to be but we can't control that yet.

JE's have had problems with combat lately (even more than they should) but that will be balanced when we are able to balance mob's combat abilities. Or maybe shield leech is too weak? This could use some investigation.

Reasons to play a JE:

wormhole

cloak (group cloak)- right now there's a bug that cloak does not hide the player from mobs with a higher combat level than the player. It might be 5 combat levels higher or something but the bug still remains. This makes it harder for JEs to survive right now but that is not intentional and will be fixed.

scan range- very useful in groups

prospect- as mentioned earlier roid fields are bugged and being worked on.

they can still build reactors- maybe not as good for money making (with the JS having negotiate) but you sure will make a lot of friends!

a lot of these aspects are compromised right now but most of them were not intentional and will be solved with time ;)

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My reason to play a JE is -> prospecting. Thants all. I fly to the roids and mine with my je. Thats a complete other game play than killing mobs. Prospecting is "the dance" or like a miner in live game said "it's a way of zen".

This is the first time i read "roid respawning is a bug" i always thought the devs of enb-emulator don't like miners and many other miners do the same... more communication would be nice. :-)

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the fact that it's a bug has been posted in some topics but hasn't really been announced. In the future you would probably find the bug on mantis, our bug reporting system (beta and above can report), but mantis was only recently set up again. I think part of the problem is we weren't totally sure what the bug was. People were saying the roids were respawning every 30 minutes. others were saying roids weren't respawning at all.

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There are some areas (not the training area) with high densities of the same ores.

There are several oddities with ore spawning. I love the cleared field bonus which sets of a respawn ?30mins? ater.

Some roids have a couple of devices in them. Not sure this is intended.

Hulks needs some love.

Some roids dont mine at max distance and you need to get up real close to start drilling, and you then find even if you are at 0.0 the ore is dragged in from a long way away.

Some roids look massive, and (even though they are rock) they only have 1u of Helium.

Until prospecting is encouraged more then the temptation will be to go for warrior classes.

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I cleared the JE starting area near navpoint Refuse Area yesterday of all mineral Ores, Now that I know there is a problem I won't do that again until the bug is fixed. Sorry about that ;)

....

I'm sure part of this idea is also based off that the JS now has build reactors at an earlier level than the JE. JE's are not builders so this makes sense. Plus they are still able to build reactors so it's not like they've been nerfed.

....

According to my client software the skill descriptions do not (necessarily) agree with what you have stated above Kenu.

Jenquai Explorer gets Build Reactor at level 45.

Jenquai Seeker can not gain the Build Reactor skill until level 60 and to train it you must "see Unknown at Unknown in Nebiros, Castor system".

(The problem here is we can NOT get to Nebiros because the Menorb Gate is offline and nonfunctional, I checked this on January 28th, 2010. From my point of view JS can NOT train in build Reactor at this time unless the skill trainer has been moved to Ishuan Station.)

If JE needs Explore or Trade lvl 45 than I can see why you say JS gets it sooner. Neither of the descriptions in my client state whether it's overall level, trade level, or explore level.

My point here is that JS cannot train Build Reactor if I go by the skill description instructions. Until this is fixed JE should continue to be able to Build Reactors. My JS is my main now in ST4, so I am not secretly lobbying for JE to keep build Reactor, just that JS be fixed first if there are any plans to remove this skill from the JE lineup.

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really apreciate you letting us know that you consider roid respawn a bug kenu, i try to keep up on the forums and i hadn't seen mention of it anywhere yet. though i have participated in a few threads that deal with respawn rates. please let us all know whan the bug is squished and i'll be sure to get my JE started the very same day.

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As another JE miner (haven't really tried mining as a TS or PS yet) there's a few issues with ore fields that could be resolved with some quick responses from the content/dev team.

Mining XP is out of balance as compared to combat xp and trade xp. It's way too low, especially for low level characters with highly limited gear. For JE's in particular when you've got aggro level 5 mobs in a level 1/2 roid field, that's a problem. A concrete example:

I created a level 0 JE and PP to compare their game experience in the first 15 minutes and here's what happened.

Jenquai Explorer

- Talk to Shin Tzu, talk to Ben Joseph, talk to Shin Tzu, receive Prospect skill- Undock, receive 550 explore xp, warp to Refuse Nav, receive 550 explore xp.- All roids here are level 1, start mining.  Each piece of level 1 ore pulled = 12 xp per.  A roid clear nets 50 xp bonus.  With starter gear I cleared roughly 4 roids with varying amounts of ore inside them for roughly 500 xp (some roids only had 1-3 qty of a single lvl 1 ore).- Receive more explore xp for the Wrecked ship.- Bored... So I moved to Pylon Alpha (more nav explore xp) which has some level 2 roids.  Each piece of level 2 ore pulled = 28 xp per, however with my starter gear and prospect level 1, I'm only able to pull 2 units per full reactor so clearing a roid takes a few pulls.  A level roid clear is also worth 50 xp.  So for the same amount of time as mining a level 1 roid, I receive roughly equal xp (sometimes less).  No benefit to mining higher at this point.  Additionally, there's a roaming level 5 aggro mob at this nav.- For combat, I can go to the Refuse nav again and work on lvl 0 drones, but there's aggro level 2 Haywires in the area.  Not a great spot for that.- Didn't bother docking to sell loot or refine, was bored and immediately deleted the character.  Character was deleted at roughly 15% EL (and that included the bonus of EL xp for 3 navs).- All this was inside of 20 minutes or so.

Progen Privateer

- Created, immediately undocked, didn't speak with any NPCs.- Undock, receive 550 explore xp for Arx Bursa.  "e" to target nearest level 0 critter and proceeded to pound away.- Takes roughly 10-15 seconds to kill a level 0 critter and receive 1k combat xp for it, as well as loot.- It took chain killing of 6 critters before my shield went sub 25%.  Wait 10 secs for recharge and 4 more critters got me to 99.98% CL.  Kill 1 more for the ding.- Docked and sold the loot, got 37% TL and 5k credits.- All this was under 15 minutes, and that included typing on New Player channel.

As you can see, the very early experience is discouraging to a new player. Receiving 12 xp per ore and 50 xp per roid clear? That doesn't seem very balanced when you look at the time spent. In a similar amount of time, the PP received roughly 150 times the xp (factoring in both combat and trade) as the JE did (solely mining).

While this is an extremely low-end example, the same continues on thru to the higher levels. Overall, mining xp is just too low when compared to combat xp. Part of the problem lies in the sheer size of the starter fields and the miniscule bonus received when compared to the skills/gear of the miner. Full field clear bonus xp is a pipe dream in these areas. On top of that, a lvl 1 field clear can't be very high. On my JE main a lvl 4 full field clear nets me roughly 1k xp... And this is at OL 44.

Also, it seems that full field clears all give the same bonus, regardless of the "difficulty" of a field. Full field clear xp needs to be more dynamic and take into account the size of the field, how many types of roids in the field as well as the level spread of the field which all factors into the "difficulty" of the field. A JE has very little cargo space so a highly mixed field will almost never get cleared by a solo JE without multiple runs back to the station to unload. This should be considered when deciding on a field clear bonus. So a level 5 only mixed roid type field (say mix of dull, glow, hydrocarbon) should get at least double the full clear bonus of a similarly sized, level 5 gas only field. This would seem more on balance when considering the amount of cargo space taken, etc. It would also translate well to mining groups.

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. I especially found it to be a disappointing profession after my determined attempt to make mine combat effective last go round.

I just have to comment on this.... I ran what you would laughingly (up til about cl 33) call a "combat JE" during live, but have not had the time to level up that far in the EMU.

What you want to do CAN be done, but takes a high level of patience... and the right player made weapons, etc. Oh, trust me, it can be done and requires a lot of timing and concentration once you get there! The problem is the Godawful grind it takes to get there. And this is just a test.... For me, that makes it unworthy of the pain needed to succeed. PLUS you need availability of items that can only be found in at least a marginally functional economy.

But, oh yes, it can be done. Imagine the surprise of a friend of mine when (in live) I took her hunting with me for a change, and we were killing things half a dozen levels above us! The poor Shinwa sounded like she wanted to wet her panties. lol Ahhhh, one of the more memorable moments in live!

Get with me before the thing goes live and perhaps we can work together to achieve the worthy goal of combat effective JEs. It's a blast when you get there!

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I just have to comment on this.... I ran what you would laughingly (up til about cl 33) call a "combat JE" during live, but have not had the time to level up that far in the EMU.

What you want to do CAN be done, but takes a high level of patience... and the right player made weapons, etc. Oh, trust me, it can be done and requires a lot of timing and concentration once you get there! The problem is the Godawful grind it takes to get there. And this is just a test.... For me, that makes it unworthy of the pain needed to succeed. PLUS you need availability of items that can only be found in at least a marginally functional economy.

But, oh yes, it can be done. Imagine the surprise of a friend of mine when (in live) I took her hunting with me for a change, and we were killing things half a dozen levels above us! The poor Shinwa sounded like she wanted to wet her panties. lol Ahhhh, one of the more memorable moments in live!

Get with me before the thing goes live and perhaps we can work together to achieve the worthy goal of combat effective JEs. It's a blast when you get there!

I ran a 150++++++++++++ JE in live. Why should I bother with patience in this class when I can do the others so easily in comparison? I lived the JE. I lived mining. I just started a Terran Explorer, and I was pulling eight or nine ores out of a single roid and hardly dented my reactor. And the roids were sort of diverse, but there were plenty of one kind so I could mine within my limitations in regards to cargo space. And the extra space in a Terran Explorer's cargo hold is HUGE.

And a combat JE? I had all the bells and whistles on my JE last time around and I still melted when a level 66 looked at me sideways. Warriors blink and level 66s are dead.

It's nice to know that the asteroid problem is a problem that is being looked at by you and yours, Kenu. But the old standards coupled with these problems are providing funeral arrangements for my JE. From the time I was a Westwood beta on down the line, I've seen more negative "tweaking" with the JE profession than with others. Better to be a warrior class and be done with it -- sneak a few miners on the side that I won't take seriously.

I'm sure some of you remember the tremendous uproar with tweaks done on the warrior classes in live and in Westwood beta. We seem to defend the professions in which we play as if they are real life. Even in real life, I can abandon a losing cause. May have taken me years to do it, but I can abandon the Jenquai Explorer. I'll keep the toon I have and leech off her for what wormholes I have acquired.

The JE is truely a "service" class.

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What do you propose to improve the JE, Toreava? I do agree that the Scout has some serious advantages in mining, given their larger cargo hold, and negotiate. but those are racial things the Scout should have.

I do agree that there should not be any reductions in the JE's capability, but I mostly advocate that many lines of Plasma beams be made with Jenquai friendly buffs on them that ALL Jenquai can use, at all levels. At least 40% of our beams should be Plasma IMO. At all levels, as long as there are orefield guardian mobs that are resistant or immune to energy. Improve the JE's stealth capablities, make him even harder to see, even when decloaked. A new line of zero sig engines that rival the SS in desirablity, are Jenquai Only, and have perhaps a single buff, reduce sig. Make all reduction of sig buffs, apply both to the ship's sig, and the engine's sig, or make a new type of sig buff that includes engine sig. Make more common items that give range boosts to our alternate weapon, Projectiles, that don't require untenable tradeoffs, like high sig, or poor reactor performance, since a Jenquai using PLs is already trading off, DPS for more range. Do not put the damage penalties for using beams beyond 50% range that were in Live, in the emulator. I do notice that Shield Leech is better in Emu than it was in Live, since the cooldown timer is significantly shorter, and I can use it 2x on many mobs when leveling up, rather than just once. Shield Leech, was somthing I put 10 points into in Live, and after 150 I was looking for a PE to unspend those skill points. Compulsory Contemplation, was not worth the effort to do the mission to get the skill. It used too much energy, and you couldn't move without breaking it.

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I ran a 150++++++++++++ JE in live. Why should I bother with patience in this class when I can do the others so easily in comparison? I lived the JE. I lived mining. I just started a Terran Explorer, and I was pulling eight or nine ores out of a single roid and hardly dented my reactor. And the roids were sort of diverse, but there were plenty of one kind so I could mine within my limitations in regards to cargo space. And the extra space in a Terran Explorer's cargo hold is HUGE.

And a combat JE? I had all the bells and whistles on my JE last time around and I still melted when a level 66 looked at me sideways. Warriors blink and level 66s are dead.

It's nice to know that the asteroid problem is a problem that is being looked at by you and yours, Kenu. But the old standards coupled with these problems are providing funeral arrangements for my JE. From the time I was a Westwood beta on down the line, I've seen more negative "tweaking" with the JE profession than with others. Better to be a warrior class and be done with it -- sneak a few miners on the side that I won't take seriously.

I'm sure some of you remember the tremendous uproar with tweaks done on the warrior classes in live and in Westwood beta. We seem to defend the professions in which we play as if they are real life. Even in real life, I can abandon a losing cause. May have taken me years to do it, but I can abandon the Jenquai Explorer. I'll keep the toon I have and leech off her for what wormholes I have acquired.

The JE is truely a "service" class.

If I say too much, it's liable to spark an argument and I don't mean to do that.

You may have had the best stuff, but did you have "the right stuff"?

What I can tell you is that, beyond a given level of progression, I was hunting solo at or above level... and in testing various gear/theories I actually managed to kill SOME MOBS up to 10CL above me. That was so time consuming that it didn't pay in a sense of time usage... plus I would die about half the time when I goofed a keystroke at a critical moment. It took a good 15 minutes or thereabouts to make a kill, don'tchaknow. But it was a heck of a stunt. I have lost track of the one very dear person who witnessed such things, or I would ask her to confirm. *shrugs* You always lose your dearest ones... that's life.

However, once the game goes live, and given the months to get back to that level, I will be happy to demonstrate. Still, if you want the "easy button" TE is about as easy as it gets.

JE is absolutely the toughest class to run in combat. I enjoyed the challenge. It seems I will enjoy it again! (Thanks Devs, et al!)

FYI, I'm not taking digs at you. My earlier offer of assistance stands. But you may not think I have any help to offer. *shrugs* That is as it may be. In any event, good luck!

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I'm firmly attached to my JE as much for nostalgia as actually enjoying the class. I've noticed the terrible respawn rate for asteroids as well, but now that I'm done with Io it isn't quite as bad. It would only take a few tweaks to make them as effective as they should be, though I don't know how much work that is on the Dev end.

Don't give up on the JE, guys. All the classes are important, as much as people are biased. They're in the game for a reason.

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so what is the problem here?

exploration experience from mining has always been ridiculously low, even in live.

in my experience few people mined for experience. I remember doing explore jobs after I explored the universe. I didn't mine.

why would JE training be boring? the missions are almost identical to live. is it because they're so similar that it's boring? or is it a matter of exp? Or is it the fact that the new classes make the JE boring?

simply saying JE's are useless and boring helps nothing, so please explain.

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JE, PS and TS gain that interesting ability to get continually Explore XP when everyone else may have to farm new players on tours!

The miner classes were the medics really.

With the Seeker being the Jenquai Trader class it was obvious that they would get the ability to build Reactors, this being the build that Jenquais rely on the most, the 'ammunition' for their beams!

Is it now that there is competition to building reactors from 2 other classes that is the perceived problem? Trader classes are here to supply the rest, and there is a break on the monopoly of the Terran Trader too.

JE, PS and TS move from being build classes to going to be the mining / medic classes, and still will have some of the most unique and demanding skilsl in the game. Wormhole will be always requested

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It's just a candid comparison of the JE against the other two miners.

Combat? Last (as it's always been, no change there)

Storage? TS has this in spades PLUS combat ability

Unique build skills? None, and the build skills it has are undercut by others with Negotiate.

So - apart from WH - I'm not seeing the decision tree a potential miner would follow that would end up with them choosing this char over the other two. And consider that absent the job-terms the WH "market" that existed in Live isn't there either, so WH is a nice convenience ability but not all that much more.

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JE, PS and TS gain that interesting ability to get continually Explore XP when everyone else may have to farm new players on tours!

The miner classes were the medics really.

With the Seeker being the Jenquai Trader class it was obvious that they would get the ability to build Reactors, this being the build that Jenquais rely on the most, the 'ammunition' for their beams!

Is it now that there is competition to building reactors from 2 other classes that is the perceived problem? Trader classes are here to supply the rest, and there is a break on the monopoly of the Terran Trader too.

JE, PS and TS move from being build classes to going to be the mining / medic classes, and still will have some of the most unique and demanding skilsl in the game. Wormhole will be always requested

Did you completely miss the part about how mining xp is appallingly low in ST4? In live there were a lot more fields spread all over, as well as continual spawn. Right now there's very few fields, only some in select sectors. Look at all the hidden asteroid navs in Jupiter alone. The majority of them are empty.

And did you see my example above? Anyone that believes it's fair for a newbie to get 12xp per piece of ore pulled as compared to the 1k xp netted from killing a single level 0 mob really hasn't tried mining for very long. You've either given up and gone on to obtain explore xp through other means (exploration, tours, missions, building, spillover) or you're a real glutton for punishment and mined your way to prospect level 2+.

The point is that JE is a class that was once balanced to be weaker in combat by being much stronger in mining/exploration, and now that is no longer true. It's not simply because the new classes are (more) fun, it's also the general lack of content for the pure explorer/miner. Since JEs currently do not have much content to make their gameplay fun while leveling, JEs are fast becoming simply a group support class. In other words, useful and needed, but not fun, at least not until end game. And that's the point of ST4 isn't it? To discover how grindy things feel pre-150.

The current anecdotal discussions I've had is that pre-150 JE is tedious at best.

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so what is the problem here?

exploration experience from mining has always been ridiculously low, even in live.

in my experience few people mined for experience. I remember doing explore jobs after I explored the universe. I didn't mine.

why would JE training be boring? the missions are almost identical to live. is it because they're so similar that it's boring? or is it a matter of exp? Or is it the fact that the new classes make the JE boring?

simply saying JE's are useless and boring helps nothing, so please explain.

I did trade jobs instead, since they gave both Trade XP, and Explore XP, at a faster rate than mining and selling ores, and allowed you to improve your faction with the job sponser without hurting other factions. TBH, most of the JE's skills are fine IMO, Compulsory Contemplation needs improvement, can't say for E-Shield, since I didn't use it much in Live.

I do think that more equipment choices are the way to go with this class. Uber equipment isn't necessarily the thing, there are plenty of those for the original 6 classes, and if anything on that line, the 3 new classes need love. A line of Plasma beams with a Scan buff, that did average DPS, average range, with average EPS per level, manu, and not unique would be a welcome addition ot the Jenquai line of weaponry (at L9 the buff be equal to the GE's scan buff, even with no other buffs) Say a 6 or 9 second beam. (I don't think such a line of beams, with average performance a scan range buff as it's only buff, would be unbalanced for JQ since we do need access to 2 damage types due to mob resistances, good scanners are supposed to be one of our strengths as the explorer race, and there is an energy beam with this buff plus 2 other buffs)

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so what is the problem here?

exploration experience from mining has always been ridiculously low, even in live.

in my experience few people mined for experience. I remember doing explore jobs after I explored the universe. I didn't mine.

why would JE training be boring? the missions are almost identical to live. is it because they're so similar that it's boring? or is it a matter of exp? Or is it the fact that the new classes make the JE boring?

simply saying JE's are useless and boring helps nothing, so please explain.

JE were desirable in live due to WH, reactor build and buff devices for groups.

WH is pretty much a convinience

TS can use most of the same devices as JE for buffing groups plus have hull patch

JT can now build reactor.

So as of this server build, JE aren't quite as useful as they once were. Add in the fact that mining xp is horrible compared to live. In live on my JE i leveled by mining, not WH missions and it was quite fun. After spending 30 minutes mining and only getting 1/4 of an EL lv (0-1) I decided i will not level a miner as this is just beyond ridiculous experience for time spent doing one thing. I will admit last stress the experience may have been a little high (due to increased gains) but honestly it was alot closer to live than what we have now and if you recall back then they boosted mining xp when they added the "new' asteroid fields because they realized then that mining xp was too low.

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Exploration from navs, is a bit low as well. We should have enough XP from navs, if you explore starter areas first, and work your way up, to get you to EL30 or so, provided you don't explore with XP debt. A low level player, regardless of class should be getting around 1000 to 1500 per nav in their starter area, but it should decrease as EL increases relative to sector difficulty. The Asteroid Navs in Live gave 1500 per nav whenever you explored them, same applies to the Navs in Ardus and DT.

With the new classes, and the JE no longer being even the best miner, there are going to have to be some improvement in the class. Some more group support things that are unique to the JE, without compromising the JT's abilty to support in groups. Maybe a little equipment that is usable with bonuses to critical hit chance, say up to about 30% at top level (and rare) equipment. The DG and GoD have buffs to crits around this level. (would still likely keep the JE as the worst performer in combat, due to poor shields, and lack of range in primary racial weapon but would make the JE more effective). There need to be things that are very useful that a JE can bring to a group, that no other class can bring, that makes us a valuable part of any team. The other explorers have more firepower, which I'm fine with, but the Scout and Sentinel also bring more useful assets to the group as of this time, between the Scout's abilty to patch hulls, and the Sentinels abilty to make enemies flee in terror. (No please do not weaken the Scout or Sentinel, make the JE a little better)

Some JE only devices that allow us to make more use of our limited hold space would be nice, or even a drone that could we could send remotely to the nearest base, and vault or Vendor some of our ores would be nice so long as we could pick what ores got vaulted/vendored.

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