Seeker Missiles

[Phorlaug[IS]]

I want to know what your thoughts are on The Jenquai Seeker having Missiles

as their secondary weapon?

Because I can't think of a negative reason I'll give a couple of positive reasons.

 

My thought is that all healers should have a good range weapon to keep him/her

out of harms way. Missiles would be a way to help combat incapacities due to Heal

aggression? 

 

The Seeker with Missiles would add a little more balance to the classes. Give the TS

Projectiles, although I don't think a Terran would use PLs for their Max range weapon.

 

To bad there just isn't any good mid/High level MLs for the Jenquai.

 

Thoughts? :blush:

[Luciferish]

The Jenquai Seeker is as formidable with beams as it needs to be, I see no reason why it should diverge from the focus of beam weapons which is augmented by the Combat Cloak skill and the available equipment already in game.  Jenquai Explorer, which is far more vulnerable to being one-shot killed than Seeker is has more of a reason for a ranged attack than any of the three Jenquai classes, however even explorer with the combination of cloaking and beams is formidable. 

 

So unless Combat Cloak is modified to augment damage other than beams, no Jenquai would or should bother with any other damage type.

 

This is of course my opinion, but I am sure if you think about this, no one who actually plays a Seeker would really consider a missile weapon over a beam, even if both of them were available to level nine.

 

Seeker along with explorer are "worker toons" in that most of the people that have these classes to any significant level are using them for utility, not as a primary play class.  I have spent many hours solo on my Jenquai Seeker and enjoy the class very much. It plays well with the Jenquai mindset of "Fire and Cloak" why would we want to turn it into a Terran Trader with another hull style?

[Terrell [BT]]

There was a mention of Combat Cloak increasing the damage of the other weapon types, back in ST4.  Not sure if we can call up all the patch notes from that long ago, but I think it was in the November 2010 or 2011 range, give or take a couple of months.  (that time of year, but not certain which year).  I don't know if that was ever reverted back.

 

Even with that said, I don't much see any point in the JT getting Missiles over Projectiles, unless there are going to be some really nice MLs introduced into the game for her, made by GETCo.  Jenquai manufactured PLs will be better than MLs, simply because each race makes it's secondary weapon, better than it's tertiary weapon.  The best thing; however, about MLs instead of PLs as the JT's other weapon, is that it's easier to get a range buff for MLs than PLs as a Jenquai  (model X, Y, and Z shields).  As far as I know, there are no PM range extenders for Projectiles, that a Jenquai can use.  At least not any of mid to high level.

 

For the Scout, I would doubt that PLs would be added to the class.  Everyone starts out with beams, and since the Scout isn't part warrior it only gets one other weapon, which would be it's racial weapon, Missiles.

 

Edit:  The two Characters I've got to L150 are a JE & a JT.   Fighting with either works about the same. 

[Agfot[IS]]

Do people even use their secondary weapon skill? Maybe i should take a look at the DB to see how many actually have them. To me those skills always seemed to be completely useless. They only go up to lvl 8, which means no meaningful damage whatsoever and you have to spend a lot of SP on things that would be better spent on a more useful skill. Imho they might as well not be there at all (no, I'm not planning to remove them). A better solution would have been to make them go to 9 but make the really good equipment race restricted (no, I'm also not saying that we are going to change it)

[Terrell [BT]]

Do people even use their secondary weapon skill? Maybe i should take a look at the DB to see how many actually have them. To me those skills always seemed to be completely useless. They only go up to lvl 8, which means no meaningful damage whatsoever and you have to spend a lot of SP on things that would be better spent on a more useful skill. Imho they might as well not be there at all (no, I'm not planning to remove them). A better solution would have been to make them go to 9 but make the really good equipment race restricted (no, I'm also not saying that we are going to change it)

 

In EnB Origins I did use my secondary weapon, in a few situations, on my JE.  I did level it up in ST4 as well, with overdings, but I didn't have the right equipment to really make the best of it.  I'll level up PLs in Live since I've got an AA that gives buffs to Projectile turbo & PL damage.  I've also got a 2nd AA that gives Turbo Weapons (activated).  One of the big issues, for Projectiles on a Jenquai, in addition to the ones you mention, is lack of good options for range boosts.  The HoDO & 5th Vector reactors are likely the best choices, but neither can be player made.

 

Screenshots from EnB Origins:

 

 

[ryleyra]

I've always felt that it would be a good idea to give Seekers missiles because 1) Jenquai DON'T really have any reason to use anything but Beams, so it doesn't really matter, and 2) the Seeker is the only class for which this option is available. Only Jenquai start with their Racial weapon, thus Terrans must have Beams and Missiles, and Progen get all three weapons by default. It would also be nice for the JT and JE to have different combat styles.

 

However, as things stand the Seeker uses projectiles and I see no reason to change existing implementation. I do note that existing Jenquai MLs tend to have some sort of resistive buff, and a special launcher as Terrell suggested would be interesting. Maybe the JT could be issued a unique PL that in essence fires micro missiles. Give it an extended range and buffs similar to the ML classes.

 

I'll add that the point of range is to stay out of sight of your opponent, (kiting) and to a Jenquai, being out of sight of his opponent is his racial skill. And thanks to Fold Space, all weapons are long range. So Jenquai MLs are not as much for range as for the energy efficiency and secondary effects. IIRC, missiles take up less space in cargo than projectiles as well. (or maybe you just don't go through them as fast)

Edited September 12, 2013 by Dragoncove

[Phorlaug[IS]]

Lets say for the sake of discussion, the Seeker is the primary healer in the group.

I don't know about some of you but it is hard for me not to take a couple of shots at the NPC when

in a group.

 

The shoot-Cloak-Heal tactic drains the reactor very fast when using beams.

 

The beams decreased damage at longer ranges, makes Non-cloak secondary weapons, IMO

a better choice. Doing the math.

 

There have been a lot of times that being in a group with a ranged-player using PLs or MLs that My beams did not have the range, and I could not fire. The Longer the NPC stays alive the better chance

they have to win the fight or Call friends, everyone should be shooting, you know this.

 

Do the math on some of the PLs a Jenquai can use, out of cloak they can do better DPS than some

of the beams, At a constant firing rate.

 

IMO, there is a place, time and tactic for a healing Jenquai to use secondary range weapons.

 

There have been time flying my JD in a group that I would be out of range as much as 50% of the

fight and at decreased damage range 70% of the time.

So out of frustration I would break group and do the Follow-Cloak-Shoot.

A JS would feel the same way.

 

[Phorlaug[IS]]

 

However, as things stand the Seeker uses projectiles and I see no reason to change existing implementation. I do note that existing Jenquai MLs tend to have some sort of resistive buff, and a special launcher as Terrell suggested would be interesting. Maybe the JT could be issued a unique PL that in essence fires micro missiles. Give it an extended range and buffs similar to the ML classes.

 

 

https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/2608-new-enb-items/?p=19968

[Terrell [BT]]

I could see the JT using MLs in the same situations I used PLs with my JE in EnB Origins.  Mostly formation fighting with longer ranged characters.  It's true that beams lose damage over range, so I could see the Jenquai using alternative weapons in those situations where you want to keep your distance, and complement them with Teleport Enemy.   Other situations where a Jenquai wants to keep her distance, especially when you combine it with low signature & a Coma device.  I think it would be less work for the developers to make some PL range boosts that a Jenquai can use that can be player made, and not intended to be ultra rare. 

 

On my JE in EnB Origins with an 85% quality HoDO reactor I was able to get my PL range to around 7Km (using Ninja's Shuriken PLs).  The same can be done for the JT with existing equipment, though said equipment isn't commonplace.  IIRC the HoDO is no trade, so you've got to loot it yourself, either at the Tada-O gate raid or the fishbowl.   The 5th Vector, is something I've never actually seen other than in the N7 database.  I'd love to get my hands on one of those for my JE, preferably with 100% quality or better.  `125% of course would be lovely.

 

 A new PL that Jenquai can use that's L8, with a range boost, and the ability to use the 3 damage types common to PLs would work too.   If it's loot only, though, it shouldn't be super rare.  I'd make it PM instead, which would make it more commonplace, as long as it doesn't require a part that's both non-manufacturable & loot only.

 

If the game is around long enough, we will get to the point where leveling secondary & tertiary weapons will be the norm.  Perhaps over time we should consider putting some rewards in doing this, starting with the support characters.

 

It may be less work, in terms of items, for the devs to simply support projectile use in Jenquai, than to start the JT with missiles, but I could be okay with it if GETCo will pony up some nice JT Only MLs for her to use.

[Reon]

I like projectiles on my seeker, I am using them right now. I would like to see a low level  weapon or device that extends range and maybe crit chance or something, but i don't feel missles are required.

 

     Lets face it, most of us will just use PL's  or ML's as back up weapons anyway because you only get a level 8 version....so why not focus on making PL's a viable weapon pre level 7 when you can use a slime cannon, and realize that they will most likely be used only when playing with progens and terrans (like I currently am) when leveling, and when you hit level 9 beams they will become a back up weapon.

 

     If I want a healer that is a ML user I log my TT in...

[Terrell [BT]]

I like projectiles on my seeker, I am using them right now. I would like to see a low level  weapon or device that extends range and maybe crit chance or something, but i don't feel missles are required.

 

     Lets face it, most of us will just use PL's  or ML's as back up weapons anyway because you only get a level 8 version....so why not focus on making PL's a viable weapon pre level 7 when you can use a slime cannon, and realize that they will most likely be used only when playing with progens and terrans (like I currently am) when leveling, and when you hit level 9 beams they will become a back up weapon.

 

     If I want a healer that is a ML user I log my TT in...

 

I think that makes sense too.  For them to even have viability as a backup weapon, there needs to be more equipment based support for them.  Right now a Jenquai running PLs has very few choices of equipment that can buff them, and having a L9 HoDO or 5th Vector reactor to use them is practically mandatory.  Lower level items as well.  Progen could get similar things for beams, if they don't have them already.  I could see some limited situations where a PE might like to use beams, such as farming for faction, or if they want a few more cargo slots while mining.

 

While the Slime & Ichor cannons have nice buffs, it would be nice to get those buffs on other equipment that a Jenquai can use, since there are situations where chemical ammo might not be the best choice.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

I think that makes sense too.  For them to even have viability as a backup weapon, there needs to be more equipment based support for them.  Right now a Jenquai running PLs has very few choices of equipment that can buff them, and having a L9 HoDO or 5th Vector reactor to use them is practically mandatory.  Lower level items as well.  Progen could get similar things for beams, if they don't have them already.  I could see some limited situations where a PE might like to use beams, such as farming for faction, or if they want a few more cargo slots while mining.

 

While the Slime & Ichor cannons have nice buffs, it would be nice to get those buffs on other equipment that a Jenquai can use, since there are situations where chemical ammo might not be the best choice.

I did a CalI Forward and had all the PLs & JD PLs I could find in our current live, and every PL buff item I could find, those "aa" devices would of made a big difference.

But without the Good effective PL buffs, they just didn't have the destruction I was hoping for.

 

The reason I bought this subject up is, its a little known fact ?

That when the Seeker was being Implemented there was a discussion on weather to give

the Seeker missiles and/or Projectiles.

 

https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/6427-terran-scout-feedback-request/?p=52768

 

"Most Hurt Harpoon ML Type N1 is super cool special item order only.
Honorable Hunter Bring Back Blubber Home happy family.
You Makie sure usey Rocket Type N1. TADA-O !"

 

So if the Seeker was introduced with missiles, would missiles of been more widely excepted?

[Terrell [BT]]

I did a CalI Forward and had all the PLs & JD PLs I could find in our current live, and every PL buff item I could find, those "aa" devices would of made a big difference.

But without the Good effective PL buffs, they just didn't have the destruction I was hoping for.

 

The reason I bought this subject up is, its a little known fact ?

That when the Seeker was being Implemented there was a discussion on weather to give

the Seeker missiles and/or Projectiles.

 

https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/6427-terran-scout-feedback-request/?p=52768

 

"Most Hurt Harpoon ML Type N1 is super cool special item order only.
Honorable Hunter Bring Back Blubber Home happy family.
You Makie sure usey Rocket Type N1. TADA-O !"

 

So if the Seeker was introduced with missiles, would missiles of been more widely excepted?

 

Yeah, I remember on the old forums, or maybe in the early days of this one a specific thread about whether the JT should have ML or PL as her secondary weapon.  Was during ST3, and maybe early ST4.   There was also talk of what the JT's missing skills would be, before she got Reactor Optimization 7, Fold Space 5, & Build Reactor, at the cost of Psi Shield and a lowering of Negotiate from L7 to L5. 

 

I could live with either weapon as a secondary weapon on the JT, especially since she and the JE are the only class where such a thing could be considered.  The JT being the more obvious choice on that, since she's the new class on the block.

 

Either way, I think we're in agreement that one of the issues for either secondary weapon is the lack of good buffs for in race equipment.  I would hope that in the long run Triad Technologies puts some in.  Perhaps some other companies that aren't really active much in the game currently.

 

If Kenu wants to implement the idea he mentioned in Post 11 of the thread you linked, I wouldn't have a problem with it generally speaking.  It should be followed up on, though, with supportive equipment buffs.  During ST4, there was a mention in the patch notes, that Combat Cloak's buffs would apply to all weapon types.  I don't know if that's still in effect, but if it is, then it is a good start, as it would be supported by what's likely the Jenquai's most important combat skill. 

 

I think it's more likely that we'll get better secondary weapon support on the JE and JT if they both use the same secondary weapon, as it would likely be done with fewer items, but if there's going to be equipment support for JTs using MLs instead of PLs then fine by me.

 

Generally I'd like to see more secondary weapon support for all classes, but I don't expect to see that soon, since most people will level up their primary racial weapon, first.  Secondary or Tertiary weapons would generally be relegated to backup weapons, but I do suspect that if you put the right buffs on them, the support classes might give them more consideration.  (basically some good, but not uber, buffs that are most easily found on secondary weapons)

[Phorlaug[IS]]

In the topic:

https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/9486-new-item-suggestion/

 

It may be an option to get a secondary weapon or item that could be used for these reasons

something powerful that degrades over time.

OR, the item has a counter attached to it, and when the count is expired the item permanently malfunctions.

 

Those aa devices Terrell if you come across another one, let me know I'll buy it.

[Terrell [BT]]

I think that if it degrades over time, that may hurt getting people to use it.    Since we're talking about secondary weapons, I'd think that the inherent tradeoffs simply in using said weapons are sufficient.  Adding additional downsides to them, beyond what we already have to begin with, will make something that's already unpopular, for most characters, more unpopular.  If anything we should work on getting the secondary/tertiary closer to the usefulness of primary weapons.

 

Most players won't use their secondary weapons as is now, the 2 big reasons are skill points, and no L9.  Any changes to secondary weapons need to soften these blows, rather than add additional ones, to get those weapons used more.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

I think that if it degrades over time, that may hurt getting people to use it.    Since we're talking about secondary weapons, I'd think that the inherent tradeoffs simply in using said weapons are sufficient.  Adding additional downsides to them, beyond what we already have to begin with, will make something that's already unpopular, for most characters, more unpopular.  If anything we should work on getting the secondary/tertiary closer to the usefulness of primary weapons.

 

Most players won't use their secondary weapons as is now, the 2 big reasons are skill points, and no L9.  Any changes to secondary weapons need to soften these blows, rather than add additional ones, to get those weapons used more.

agree