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Poll regarding raids and access to them: Question


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I noticed that there was a dev that voted that the raids were not accessible enough.  I think that there should be some clarification as he/she has more power to change how things work than the rank and file. Not that anything needs to be changed in the code, but if there were what would that change be?

 

Is there any chance or "in the works" to get the FB back to how it was in EA live? IIRC 2 groups were laughably not enough to go into the FB instance.

 

 

I lurk a lot in both guild chat as well and monitor all other channels and sadly the only chat I see for organizing a raid of any kind is in guild chat.  
 
Perhaps there isn't as much interest in raids as some might post to the contrary. 
 
If there were more interest shown "IN GAME" wouldn't there be more chatter about getting a raid organized? 

 

Just saying....

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Raids are plenty accessible, it's just a sharp decline in player activity and numbers that has caused this "we can't do raids" attitude, if you ask me. Believe me I have had plenty of difficulty sparking even enough interest to form a fishbowl these days in guild as either everyone has the gear already, or they just don't want to. Which is fine, as there are eventually going to be new instances that everyone will be clambering for. But I think back to when fishbowl's were first happening and there was three, even four groups struggling to get places in them. Now like I said, is a different story.

From my experience, you can do every raid in the game with just 2 groups, as long as there healers that are on the ball. And warriors that are just as on the ball. The only time I've seen a raid fail is when people are AFK (and very clearly afk). So basically, if all your members are focused on what they are doing, you can do these raids. We are doing gate raids on a daily basis with just 1 group. If you cannot even form 6 players at the same time then it's probably time to rethink your "guild" status, and probably just refer to yourselves as friends. That may seem harsh, but lets be realistic and consider why these instances are as such, and why they previously required so many people working together. Because they yield some of the best items in the game. That's not me being elitist. But on pegasus in live we had a system for public raids. And it was called an "Auction". So that even me, johnny average 16 year old gamer, could get in on the action. And that also gave credits a purpose, and meaning, and value. Maybe it's time to rethink??

I have seen a lot of mention of "small guilds" lately. But frankly with the number of online people dwindling to 200 give or take a few even on Saturday night. Is it any wonder that we are facing difficulty even forming 12 people that want to simultaneously take part in the same activity. Espcially as most of these people have done these raids a couple hundred times before in the past. Now I know that might not seem fair to "new" players, but maybe if all of us did our part in recruiting and advertising this emulator, maybe your guild might not be so "small".

Fact is the raids are easy. And yes I stick by that. For warriors they are point and shoot. Healers are the only reason raids can take place, along with jumpstarters. Which raises another point. Once you install your shiny new equipment the last thing you want is to damage that 125% collectable helping someone else get theirs.. so I guess actually it is all of these reasons and probably more that raids don't seem accessible. But believe me, if someone asks either BI or me personally to assist with a raid you can bet your buns I'll be there helping, and not rolling either :)

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I noticed that there was a dev that voted that the raids were not accessible enough.  I think that there should be some clarification as he/she has more power to change how things work than the rank and file. Not that anything needs to be changed in the code, but if there were what would that change be?

 

Is there any chance or "in the works" to get the FB back to how it was in EA live? IIRC 2 groups were laughably not enough to go into the FB instance.

 

 

I lurk a lot in both guild chat as well and monitor all other channels and sadly the only chat I see for organizing a raid of any kind is in guild chat.  
 
Perhaps there isn't as much interest in raids as some might post to the contrary. 
 
If there were more interest shown "IN GAME" wouldn't there be more chatter about getting a raid organized? 

 

Just saying....

 

Not sure if we have the server population to do fishbowls the old way.  I'm not sure if Serinna's public fishbowls on Andromeda were indicative of what it would take for well equipped players to handle it, but in the ones she led usually had around 6 groups set up for MASH tactics.  Groups consisted of 3 guns (any combination of the warrior classes), 1 explorer for Jumpstarting, a TT & JW who were the "hospital".  Is server stability such, that we could do a fishbowl with that many players, without lag, crashes, or other issues?

 

Fish's mention of new future raids makes sense as well, for those who have the gear, and don't really see a point in doing the same raids over & over.  They likely would like something new to do.  I've often argued for other means to get good, but not necessarily awesome, equipment through missions, mining projects, etc.

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Couldn't agree more with the last part of Terrell's post. Raids should definitely not be the only way of acquiring items of similar attributes, or interest. Something which I had not previously considered myself. But then with that said, the game would more be suited to single play. Which defeats the object of it being an MMO. But then given the numbers online, I guess the game must evolve that way if it's going to survive. Very interesting indeed!

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Raids are plenty accessible, it's just a sharp decline in player activity and numbers that has caused this "we can't do raids" attitude, if you ask me. Believe me I have had plenty of difficulty sparking even enough interest to form a fishbowl these days in guild as either everyone has the gear already, or they just don't want to. Which is fine, as there are eventually going to be new instances that everyone will be clambering for. But I think back to when fishbowl's were first happening and there was three, even four groups struggling to get places in them. Now like I said, is a different story.

From my experience, you can do every raid in the game with just 2 groups, as long as there healers that are on the ball. And warriors that are just as on the ball. The only time I've seen a raid fail is when people are AFK (and very clearly afk). So basically, if all your members are focused on what they are doing, you can do these raids. We are doing gate raids on a daily basis with just 1 group. If you cannot even form 6 players at the same time then it's probably time to rethink your "guild" status, and probably just refer to yourselves as friends. That may seem harsh, but lets be realistic and consider why these instances are as such, and why they previously required so many people working together. Because they yield some of the best items in the game. That's not me being elitist. But on pegasus in live we had a system for public raids. And it was called an "Auction". So that even me, johnny average 16 year old gamer, could get in on the action. And that also gave credits a purpose, and meaning, and value. Maybe it's time to rethink??

I have seen a lot of mention of "small guilds" lately. But frankly with the number of online people dwindling to 200 give or take a few even on Saturday night. Is it any wonder that we are facing difficulty even forming 12 people that want to simultaneously take part in the same activity. Espcially as most of these people have done these raids a couple hundred times before in the past. Now I know that might not seem fair to "new" players, but maybe if all of us did our part in recruiting and advertising this emulator, maybe your guild might not be so "small".

Fact is the raids are easy. And yes I stick by that. For warriors they are point and shoot. Healers are the only reason raids can take place, along with jumpstarters. Which raises another point. Once you install your shiny new equipment the last thing you want is to damage that 125% collectable helping someone else get theirs.. so I guess actually it is all of these reasons and probably more that raids don't seem accessible. But believe me, if someone asks either BI or me personally to assist with a raid you can bet your buns I'll be there helping, and not rolling either :)

Absolutly spot-on :D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Effort was made earlier in the year to make raids more complicated and difficult.  What we discovered was the more we added the worse the lag got.  Some things went in, some were shelved pending other issues we have to overcome first.

 

Then there were the issues with mob skills going berserk (remember the chain hacks and heal spheres of doom?)  We also cant really go over a 4 group raid scenario without having the client go WARRRGARRBL on some people.

 

Raid balancing and difficulty is as always a work in progress.  Currently the raid I believe is most "complete" as far as it's difficulty is concerned is the RD base.

 

That could change in the long term, especially once some of the proxy issues have been corrected.  We still have some issues with that, as well as the megan hour conundrum. 

 

I wish there was a quick and easy fix to make raids scaleable, but with this game engine that is 100 percent impossible. 

 

So the best we can do is design raids to be a challenge for X number of players.

 

By tier (assuming average gear and average players, naturally cap geared toons with raid vets will reduce the number of people needed in some cases):

4 groups (very hard)

- RD Base

- GoBB

 

3-4 Groups (hard)

- Controller

- Fishbowl

 

2-3 groups (moderate)

- Tada-O gate

- Ascendant Voltoi

 

1-2 groups (relatively easy)

- Mordana

- OCD

 

 

Thats what we have shot for, more or less.  As people get better and better at doing PvE content via gear and experience, the difficulty always decreases (power creep).  It is a neverending battle to keep it as difficult without making it ridiculously overpowered (250k damage one-shots every 30 seconds being commonplace?)

 

In that line of thinking, what do you believe could be done better.  Due to the level/strength of the drops involved those group numbers (and associated timers) arent really up for debate.  We need to keep the best stuff at a high difficulty level to achieve. 

 

This is also why you dont see constant new shinies that are more powerful than what exists.  If we introduced too much power creep into this game in the state it is in, could you imagine how insanely hard it would be to even create a serious challenge anymore?

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anything above 2 groups is unreasonable and pretty much unobtainable for most unless the player base massively improves . and at most points in the day you will have your work cut out getting 2. most points of the day you get about 90 players on peak couple of hours you may get about 150 . very very rarely u may get close to 200 . just my 2 cents . 3- 4 groups as it stands would be requiring a large % of the people online at given time to be willing to raid which I see as unreasonable just my 2 cents. Also gathering man power gets worse when you factor in the fact that from what I've seen a lot of people are running at least two  accounts at the same time I've seen people running up to 5 regularly. which makes it even harder still to get the man power your speaking of to tackle the raids you would like  to make harder still . would also like to mention you yourself pointed out in another thread that only 3 guilds are really doing them as it stands granted the reason you choose was laziness rather then factual . My point is do you really want to add more incentive not to do the raids ? Is it really realistic to impose raids requiring such numbers with the player base as it stands ?

Edited by wireclub
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Wireclub, you obviously didn't READ the post.. He was saying this was what they were thinking would be good they didn't fully implement it because of problems.. And a valid argument for difficulty levels on these raids... Your unending and complete inability to see past your own tired argument of "the game is dying and no one cares" and the supplementary argument of "The big guilds control everything" has exceeded its shelf life... Constantly re-hashing these statements in any post that is even remotely applicable has only made your argument LESS valid... I suggest you propose SOLUTIONS, not just repeat like a broken record. 

 

No, your ideas may not be implemented, does this mean there is a conspiracy against you and small guild/non-guild players?  NO.. It means that given the circumstances not every idea is possible to implement.  What it means is if you Enjoy the game.. Play it.. if you want to help improve it, make suggestions and join the discussions with constructive critical analysis and accept that no magic wand is going to happen to fix all the problems. If you can't get on with that in mind, you may need to seek another form of entertainment, because this one is probably going to cause you a great deal of grief given the mindset you constantly present.

 

Frankly, Wireclub, I could give a damn....

 

Also learn how to use paragraphs, spell checkers, capitalization, punctuation and try not to murder the English language so horribly in your posts, it makes you read like a 10 year old kid... Many people won't get past your first sentence before moving on to the next post or comment.

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I dont think raids should be made harder , just the rewards made less . Lag is , as you pointed out a major factor . But also so is the despair of smaller guilds that think whats the point of playing if they could never get enough players to take part in a raid . 

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anything above 2 groups is unreasonable and pretty much unobtainable for most unless the player base massively improves . and at most points in the day you will have your work cut out getting 2. most points of the day you get about 90 players on peak couple of hours you may get about 150 . very very rarely u may get close to 200 . just my 2 cents . 3- 4 groups as it stands would be requiring a large % of the people online at given time to be willing to raid which I see as unreasonable just my 2 cents. Also gathering man power gets worse when you factor in the fact that from what I've seen a lot of people are running at least two  accounts at the same time I've seen people running up to 5 regularly. which makes it even harder still to get the man power your speaking of to tackle the raids you would like  to make harder still . would also like to mention you yourself pointed out in another thread that only 3 guilds are really doing them as it stands granted the reason you choose was laziness rather then factual . My point is do you really want to add more incentive not to do the raids ? Is it really realistic to impose raids requiring such numbers with the player base as it stands ?

Sadly wireclub your numbers look like you made them up... ()!  If you could take the time, go to the Net-7 site and take a look at the player statistics page.   
 
I was trying to read between the lines of your post(s) and it seems to me your main argument is NOT that you want to be part of big raids. but want to do ALL the raids solo (your rational: No players on line when you play) ????
 
Also did you even read the posts of the independents doing raids?
 
I hit the plus on your comment in error ...wish I could edit it... but nope.  
Edited by Dakynos
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numbers I havw seen logging in over months not made up most of the day its around the 90 marker it gets to about 150 at peak occasionally 200 . I've rarely seen it above 200 ever one or twice ill admit my numbers stand . I was simply pointing out games tend to cater to the playerbase and what is viable . I'm not playing as much now sadly to many people left I know for one reason or another I see potential but things do need to be changed in my view . I know its not the view of the few who come on the forums and I'm sorry if it upsets you . but treating your view as the majority view and trying to shoot me down often quite aggressively is not the way to go . I understsnd thst most of you guys that tend to respond so aggressively are in the guilds that can access these things with ease so you may not see the issues that floating around. I would just suggest that you take a look wt logins for halve a hour . or fly around looking for people not parked at gates or sat outside a base that aren't in the said guilds you'd instantly see that theirs an issue .(99 people on now for the record)

Edited by wireclub
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I hate to see this go to a flame war but your numbers just don't hold up to the actual count on the Net-7 site.  Anddddddd I would never suggest that you actually join a guild to get what you want but, really it may not be the most terrible thing you could do in this game. (FYI if you do this it may be a good idea to start new characters ...just saying)   

 

Pointing out your errors is not an attack on you personally. Showing that your posts in here using unsubstantiated numbers only at the times you log in.  Document your findings, compare those with the stats page, possibly change your play time to coincide with greater population times.

 

 

Just saying............. 

--------------- Edit Below ------------------

FYI: 

https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/9565-raidermans-open-raid/?hl=raid

 

Also If you come into a forum and post a thought or idea, and if others don't validate that... it is not necessarily an attack on you.  In some cases it was.  In my case it mostly was not, but I can be swayed to the dark side on this.

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1-2 groups (relatively easy)

- Mordana

- OCD

I was asking for folks to do Mordana yesterday, there are players willing to help us out, and they ask for nothing in return. The disappointing part is the lack of interest from small guilds and non guilded folks. I will try again to get a mordana raid going today so if you will be online wireclub you are more than welcome to join in.

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Addendum:  Some of the raids are intended to require a lot of people is because of a couple of factors.

 

1.  Large group effort (a lot of people find it very fun to group in mass numbers and work as a large team with multiple groups)

2.  The loot of the raid is powerful/uber enough that we want to distribute one item maybe twice a week total. (No monty haul server flooding so everyone and their mother has a skull shield on every toon within a few months)

3.  Referring to reason 2, we also want to make sure you actually have to organize and bust your butt to get said shiny, even if it takes several tries and a good roll on a random or something.  No freebie skull shields, sorry.

4.  The major raids are NOT intended to be soloed by someone multiboxing.  We are intentionally gating that.  Period.

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Addendum:  Some of the raids are intended to require a lot of people is because of a couple of factors.

 

1.  Large group effort (a lot of people find it very fun to group in mass numbers and work as a large team with multiple groups)

2.  The loot of the raid is powerful/uber enough that we want to distribute one item maybe twice a week total. (No monty haul server flooding so everyone and their mother has a skull shield on every toon within a few months)

3.  Referring to reason 2, we also want to make sure you actually have to organize and bust your butt to get said shiny, even if it takes several tries and a good roll on a random or something.  No freebie skull shields, sorry.

4.  The major raids are NOT intended to be soloed by someone multiboxing.  We are intentionally gating that.  Period.

All very well with a larger player base , but realy believe at the moment it should be left the way it is . Maybe limit the uber drops a bit a more if you have to . But if you make the whole actual raid events any harder i see a harmfull effect on the player base due to despair , at least being able to do the raids even with crappy drop rates is better than not being able to do them at all . Even the 'Big 3' guilds are struggling to field raid parties sometimes so what the rest of the server is doing is anyones guess . And don't forget the lag monster , and from what i have seen this server cannot cope with too many players in one spot lol .

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Addendum:  Some of the raids are intended to require a lot of people is because of a couple of factors.

 

1.  Large group effort (a lot of people find it very fun to group in mass numbers and work as a large team with multiple groups)

2.  The loot of the raid is powerful/uber enough that we want to distribute one item maybe twice a week total. (No monty haul server flooding so everyone and their mother has a skull shield on every toon within a few months)

3.  Referring to reason 2, we also want to make sure you actually have to organize and bust your butt to get said shiny, even if it takes several tries and a good roll on a random or something.  No freebie skull shields, sorry.

4.  The major raids are NOT intended to be soloed by someone multiboxing.  We are intentionally gating that.  Period.

 

 

I would say at this point making them harder will not help matters... Yes there are a few, maybe a dozen, players that have a nice 6-box setup that can do a Gate or mordana raids with some level of success.. However, I would not punish the remainder of the player base, including those in small guilds and non-guilded, honestly trying to overcome the obstacles presented by raids and the complexity of them.  What I am finding is that most of the Small Guild/Non Guild players don't do raids because they don't know how to organize... They don't have the people skills or the understanding of the raids needed to put groups together and make it work.  Large guilds have MANY people in them that can do this because they have all done the raids several times, know the basic strategy associated with large endeavors and they have a readily accessible player pool to bring in.  I know Builders Inc has been doing more public raids, not because they need to, but because folks like myself have talked to the leaders and organizers within that guild and made them realize it would be a public service to do so. 

 

People are attending them, learning from the experience and moving outward.. It will take time... When you start seeing items from the big raids Controller, GoBB, RD base falling into the hands of those who are multi-box only players, THEN I would consider increasing the difficulty.  For now you would just stop cold the process the player base has going to include more people in the endgame content..

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I must admit to being one of those reluctant to get involved with a guild or other players on a regular basis. This is definitely my loss. I can see the benefits (in enjoyment as well as loot :-) ) in grouping with other players to get the most out of this game.

 

There needs to be something on that epic scale, such as raids,  as part of the endgame to give us the incentive to play to and Beyond OL150. The raids need to be sufficiently complex to require a significant number of individual players to take part in order to be successful and get the best rewards. After all one of the aims of the game is to encourage group play.

 

The public raids are a great idea. They offer a ready made introduction to the mechanics of raids for those reluctant group players. Also they are something to look forward to when toons level sufficiently to take part :-). Thanks to those organising them, I cant wait to get involved!

 

With regard to the rarity of items I believe this to be essential for powerful items. It adds to the mysticism, or unknown, that keeps us interested in continuing to play the game. It can be frustrating at times but surely having content that is almost mythical and unattainable provides an edge to the game and something to look forward to as we progress. Besides, there is plenty of cool stuff to keep us interested along the way. It should be enjoyable but not necessarily easy!

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I must admit to being one of those reluctant to get involved with a guild or other players on a regular basis. This is definitely my loss. I can see the benefits (in enjoyment as well as loot :-) ) in grouping with other players to get the most out of this game.

 

There needs to be something on that epic scale, such as raids,  as part of the endgame to give us the incentive to play to and Beyond OL150. The raids need to be sufficiently complex to require a significant number of individual players to take part in order to be successful and get the best rewards. After all one of the aims of the game is to encourage group play.

 

The public raids are a great idea. They offer a ready made introduction to the mechanics of raids for those reluctant group players. Also they are something to look forward to when toons level sufficiently to take part :-). Thanks to those organising them, I cant wait to get involved!

 

With regard to the rarity of items I believe this to be essential for powerful items. It adds to the mysticism, or unknown, that keeps us interested in continuing to play the game. It can be frustrating at times but surely having content that is almost mythical and unattainable provides an edge to the game and something to look forward to as we progress. Besides, there is plenty of cool stuff to keep us interested along the way. It should be enjoyable but not necessarily easy!

I agree with all of this.. I also think there is a problem with the way people approach the "end game" concept.. It does not end.. It continues..

 

Firstly the equipment from Raids ... I find that most of it is rather nice.. but it does have a down side... Some of it is loot-only non-trade and cannot be rebuilt if it takes a quality hit, I have had a few raid items I've had to dispose of because they had taken enough quality damage to be useless... PM equipment can be easily replaced.. Traded equipment even can be replaced with effort..

 

Secondly you must bracket the class of the toon... I have a JD for example, I have built her up to do the impossible, no challenge too great... She's got a number of raid items and makes her very formidable, but not everyone thinks of taking on CL66 PAX mobs in Tarsis... Solo... If you are raiding and doing all of that regularly the raid equipment isn't a bad idea.. If you are not, then it is not really necessary in order to have a successful setup... It may help, but it certainly is not required.. It comes down to the age-old must have the best equipment no matter what... If you are not USING it, then why have it?  Skull shield?  Yeah it's great... for the turbo buff, that's it.. it looks cool, but you don't dare risk it taking a quality hit when fighting, so swap it out for the good ole Domaru when you get in a scrap!  So the most desired item in the Controller raid gathers dust except when I buff up my JD to do something insane... Do you really need it?  I mean REALLY NEED it?  Probably not..

 

Lastly I'd like to say, Raids are a community effort.. we're often quick to help with a question or jump in and help a toon in trouble, but when someone wants to do something "Crazy" it is often hard to get people to jump in... They'd rather do another trade run on their alt or work on their Agrippa missions or something else, not load up their TT and go fight Mordana for 2 hours on the off chance something interesting will drop and maybe they will win it in a lotto and them MAYBE they can print it... We have to get these cob-webbed 150s out of the closet, get them polished up and ready to do raids.. I think if every player has a 150 of any class they should shine up the toys and have it ready, then when Skunky or Magoo or someone says, "Open Mordana Raid" or "Open Gate Raid" you are ready to go... spending 30 minutes while people try to figure out what they did with their ammo comps gets old..

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I hope you realize my posts have not been intended to construe some misconception that we intend to make raids any harder than they currently are, unless something is not working right as designed.

 

If they are at the posted level I used up there, then good.  If not, effort will be made to restore them to the intended target point.  (Realize 4 groups means 4 groups of people using vendor gear or non-raid PM stuff), that could translate into 2 ubered up groups of Static or BI or something.

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Ahh, yes, that does sound like a better calibration... And as far as I can figure about where they currently sit... of course you can't measure the talent of the pilots of the toons either, which is a major factor... A good set of people on vanilla vendor/pm eq can do a lot more than someone who is inexperienced.. but that is an intangible in all of this..

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I hope you realize my posts have not been intended to construe some misconception that we intend to make raids any harder than they currently are, unless something is not working right as designed.

 

If they are at the posted level I used up there, then good.  If not, effort will be made to restore them to the intended target point.  (Realize 4 groups means 4 groups of people using vendor gear or non-raid PM stuff), that could translate into 2 ubered up groups of Static or BI or something.

A bit miffed you did not mention VGE lol

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  • 2 weeks later...

I was reading some of the posts and they mentioned a lack of "raid" experience, and not knowing the rouine of the raids but this really is not essential. All of the skills and knowledge that you need, you absolutely should of learnt while playing the game and doing every day hunting/looting. Mobs are not intelligent let's face it. For the most part they have these similar traits:

1. They want to kill you

2. They will try to gang up on you

3.  They MUST be debuffed (not just plasma/chem but things like crystalline apparatus)

4. They will use skills

5. You MUST use your skills (hacking,biorepress,enrage,grav-link etc) - Not just once, consistently.

 

Raid mobs are no different, they are just a lot tougher and like any mob in the game, each will require tactics eg which ammo type is most effective, aggro management. I will not spell out any further tactics as they are for you to discover.

 

So if you didn't learn how to kill things as a warrior, and you did not learn how to adequately and appropriate buff/aid warriors as an explorer, and you did not learn how to be an efficient combat medic.. then what did you learn?

It's all about scale and relativity, when you are a lowbie. You can effectively get "raid" practice by getting a group together and going to try and take on a significantly higher CL mob. It is absolutely no different. I cannot fathom how anyone has made it anywhere in this game without learning these very basic fundamentals. You really do not need specific encounters to learn how to be effective in combat/support. So get out there, you've no excuses!

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