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Raids for small guilds


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From what I've gathered about this whole mess it seems that the players that are non-guild or small guild lack leadership... That failing is why they are unable to organize and conduct raids without the help of large guilds like BI or VGE helping out in various ways. 

 

From that I can draw the conclusion that all of the posts "Big guilds ruin everything for the little guy" are off base because the guilds don't effect the little guy, it is simply a lack of organization that is the problem...

 

Secondly it is possible to say that the routine answer by many members of big guilds to non-guilds/small guild players that people should "Organize and do the raids" on their own is a bad argument when the first complaint is raised.  We must come to accept that non-guild/small guild players without proper guidance are not going to be capable to engage that content.  The player base is too small to just muster up a dozen people even with several weeks of preparation, let alone lack of leadership, knowledge and confidence needed to make a raid go well.  Guild like Builders, VGE, Static and Epic should consider hosting raids and offering more of these to help the non-guildies get some experience. 

 

With the size of the big 3 guilds they comprise nearly 80% of the server at any given time, though that is hard to judge since there is no way to know how many members of those guilds are ALTs.  But there are enough seasoned players that are raid savvy that they can do what the general populace cannot... Coordinate a dozen toons to a focused goal...

 

The matter isn't that of access to the raids or the ability to activate the content, the failing is with the people themselves just not knowing how to or not being able to experience the content due to the chaotic nature of the "Rabble" involved. Efforts by Builders Inc, VGE and its members to help out is the only reason any "Public" raiding is even possible at this point.. We just have to accept that.

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From what I've gathered about this whole mess it seems that the players that are non-guild or small guild lack leadership...

True, but isn't that expected? I'm non-guild primarily because I don't want to be part of a long-term organization, that is I don't want leadership. And now I'm paying the price...
 

From that I can draw the conclusion that all of the posts "Big guilds ruin everything for the little guy" are off base because the guilds don't effect the little guy, it is simply a lack of organization that is the problem...

I've never had a complaint with the big guilds, per se. My complaint is the consequence of the existence of big guilds. Specifically, the devs seem to want to force this content to be for large groups only. Which, as you have noted, requires the level of organization only the big guilds have. Effectively, the devs are developing content for the big guilds (except when they are nice enough to let us little guys tag along).

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning, either. Maybe it's just me, but increasing the number of people involved really didn't increase my enjoyment level any. I had just as much fun in the single group Mordanna raids as in the 3 group Fishbowl. So I just have to wonder, what is the point?
 

Guild like Builders, VGE, Static and Epic should consider hosting raids and offering more of these to help the non-guildies get some experience.

This isn't really fair. First of all, BI has hosted every raid I've been a part of (bar Skunky's gate raid this weekend), including Mordanna, Gate and Fishbowl. I don't have any relation to them, I just showed up when they made announcements on the chat channels. (Although from Fish's comments, I wonder if I wasn't supposed to stick around for the FB?)

Second, it's unfair for us to expect them to do all the organization, supply the triggers and then herd us through the raid. While I'm grateful when they do (thanks Jamoos!), I certainly don't expect it.

After all, if I really wanted to raid, I could join one of their guilds right? It would be wrong to expect them to cater to my own playstyle, just because I'm averse to joining guilds...
 

Efforts by Builders Inc, VGE and its members to help out is the only reason any "Public" raiding is even possible at this point.. We just have to accept that.

I was a little confused on this, was there some expectation that the big guilds would stay out? Doesn't "public" raid mean anyone can come along?

I mean, I learned alot from my drivers (when I had time to pay attention between frantic healing). If I had one complaint, it would be that I'm not sure about the true difficulty of the raids. Was I pulling my own weight? Or did they not seem that hard because I was being pulled along by players w/ that much better equipment/experience?
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I mean, I learned alot from my drivers (when I had time to pay attention between frantic healing). If I had one complaint, it would be that I'm not sure about the true difficulty of the raids. Was I pulling my own weight? Or did they not seem that hard because I was being pulled along by players w/ that much better equipment/experience? 

 

 

At risk of seeming full of my self, or my guild mates. I am going to say that what you witnessed was not a true representation of the raids difficulty. We are all extremely well outfitted which reduces difficulty ten-fold. 

 

However not everyone within our guild, or I'd guess any of the other "big 3" are capable or indeed willing to organise events. Just because the majority of our members participate, does not mean the vast majority are running the show. It is in fact only a small number of us that consistently step up.

 

Believe me when I say I have seen countless useless raid drivers come and go, so don't assume that just because you are in a guild that you suddenly become enlightened to raid routines, specifics, tactics and organisation. Because it just isn't like that. It is usually left to a small number of motivated and enthusiastic folks who are familiar with fundamental game mechanics.

 

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I mean, I learned alot from my drivers (when I had time to pay attention between frantic healing). If I had one complaint, it would be that I'm not sure about the true difficulty of the raids. Was I pulling my own weight? Or did they not seem that hard because I was being pulled along by players w/ that much better equipment/experience?

 

 

There were also a few stragglers that were not there for any other reason than to help clean up the mess.  I waived good bye with me and my progens before looting even started.  I wasn't the only one that did this.  I didn't hardly even engage the bosses but rather killed mostly adds and keeping a lot of agro on my pw.    I didn't do it for any other reason than to not mine for a bit. 

 

Despite the chaos, it was kinda fun.  It was clear though, that Fish's group was in control.  Hopefully, those that haven't been there, saw and learned and next time it goes better.

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True, but isn't that expected? I'm non-guild primarily because I don't want to be part of a long-term organization, that is I don't want leadership. And now I'm paying the price...
 
I've never had a complaint with the big guilds, per se. My complaint is the consequence of the existence of big guilds. Specifically, the devs seem to want to force this content to be for large groups only. Which, as you have noted, requires the level of organization only the big guilds have. Effectively, the devs are developing content for the big guilds (except when they are nice enough to let us little guys tag along).

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning, either. Maybe it's just me, but increasing the number of people involved really didn't increase my enjoyment level any. I had just as much fun in the single group Mordanna raids as in the 3 group Fishbowl. So I just have to wonder, what is the point?
 
This isn't really fair. First of all, BI has hosted every raid I've been a part of (bar Skunky's gate raid this weekend), including Mordanna, Gate and Fishbowl. I don't have any relation to them, I just showed up when they made announcements on the chat channels. (Although from Fish's comments, I wonder if I wasn't supposed to stick around for the FB?)

Second, it's unfair for us to expect them to do all the organization, supply the triggers and then herd us through the raid. While I'm grateful when they do (thanks Jamoos!), I certainly don't expect it.

After all, if I really wanted to raid, I could join one of their guilds right? It would be wrong to expect them to cater to my own playstyle, just because I'm averse to joining guilds...
 
I was a little confused on this, was there some expectation that the big guilds would stay out? Doesn't "public" raid mean anyone can come along?

I mean, I learned alot from my drivers (when I had time to pay attention between frantic healing). If I had one complaint, it would be that I'm not sure about the true difficulty of the raids. Was I pulling my own weight? Or did they not seem that hard because I was being pulled along by players w/ that much better equipment/experience?

My responses here are to address things that people have said in other posts.... There seems to be a couple of factions of players and a few of them are vocal against the guild situation we currently have...

 

This has created a few different points of view that seem to fit most people.

 

  1. Big guilds get all the content and anyone not in a big guild is left out.  (Often followed by a big guilds are evil rant.)
  2. Big guilds are dominating all of the content out of some desire to control the game (Again followed by a rant or something)
  3. Raids are not accessible to the non-guild or small guild population of the server because of point 1 and 2.
  4. Raids are not accessible because they are too hard or complex to be solo-played, thereby making them inaccessible to many people. (If you can multi-box a raid, go for it, it won't be a lot of fun)
  5. Raids and end-game content is only being developed for the big guilds. (How much of the server population is IN those guilds v.s. everyone else?)

The entire point of the Skunky raid was to try and organize and execute a raid outside of the foundation of a large guild, at least that is how I understood what was going on.  In effect the "Skunky" raids proved that the non-guild/small guild player base is not able to organize on this level.  Only thanks to BI jumping in to help and effectively ensuring success did it happen at all. 

 

My points to the entire endeavor are this.

 

Big guilds have the firepower, resources and knowledge base to do these raids nearly at will, sometimes multiple times a day. About 1/3 of the server has no access to any of that, or the content that these raids contain in the form of equipment and experience.  Mind you I am only addressing the Tada-O gate and the "Fishbowl" raids in this statement.  The GoBB, RD Base and Controller raids are an entirely different matter.  Suffice it to say that if the 1/3 "rest of us" cannot get a Gate raid to fly without all the big guilds, you can entirely forget the big raids in BBW/Paramis and AP ever being in reach. That content is effectively locked down by the guilds currently in rotation to do them.  That is not to say that they intentionally locked anyone out, I don't think BI, VGE or Static intended to prevent people from accessing certain content, It is simply a fact that the 1/3 of the server that is not in one of these guilds is not going to be able to jump to and make it work.. period...

 

My statements about what this means is simple reasoning... Not being motivated by any animosity toward any guilds or their membership, simply this:

 

If you want to be able to raid and have access to that content.. VGE, Static and BI are the only viable solution at this point.  Any member of those guilds that says, "Well if you want to raid, get some people together fand do it, you don't need a big guild to do that" is now an invalid argument.  We just can't say that anymore, because frankly, IWantToRaid player can't just throw a message out on General and organize one of these with any degree of routine success without members of these guilds being involved, if not running the show.

 

If we had a larger player base, with more than 1/3 of the server in a pile and a half dozen experienced raiders in that population that could organize, coordinate and execute these the story would be different.  But please understand the common player just isn't going to make one of these happen without a guild involved that knows how they work, able to make it happen and operate as a team.

 

As for the bit about "Providing" triggers.  Who said the guilds had to provide triggers?  No one did. Any player that is willing to build one can ask BI, VGE, Static or Epic to put together a raid, I am sure these guilds can help facilitate that raid and would be happy to do so. But the public (1/3 of the population that is not in the big 3) needs to know the guilds can and will do this. There are players that know how to make the triggers, ask around get tips and advice, just like any mission.  Put together the gate trigger and then ask around, Fish is a good example, Jamoos or others can grab that an run with it. 

 

I think it would be nice of the larger guilds to be more open to facilitate this if a player comes forward, I know Builders would do it if asked. Since JohnQPlayer can't do it on his own and has elected not to guild should not lock him out of the content, those who can help out should. Our community is too small not to..

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This has created a few different points of view that seem to fit most people.

Count me as #5, then. To be clear, though, I don't think there's any maliciousness involved here on the part of the devs. I just think they have this vision of huge, grand battles that just doesn't fit the reality of our player base, unless we join a large/organized guild.
 

The entire point of the Skunky raid was to try and organize and execute a raid outside of the foundation of a large guild, at least that is how I understood what was going on.  In effect the "Skunky" raids proved that the non-guild/small guild player base is not able to organize on this level.  Only thanks to BI jumping in to help and effectively ensuring success did it happen at all.

One sample doesn't make proof, but I take your point. I doubt I could do any better.

Honestly, if you want my opinion, the issue is mostly lack of interest and/or capability. Even at the public raids BI held, success rate was only about 50% for me. The first time (sat. evening), only a handful showed up, so they rescheduled. The second time (sunday afternoon), enough showed. Most of the comments I saw when they made announcements where along the lines of "wish I could, not big enough yet". Even I skipped an earlier one (saturday morning) because I was busy w/ my other toons.
 

We just can't say that anymore, because frankly, IWantToRaid player can't just throw a message out on General and organize one of these with any degree of routine success without members of these guilds being involved, if not running the show.

Agreed, for the most part.
 

As for the bit about "Providing" triggers.  Who said the guilds had to provide triggers?  No one did.

Well, at the time, I figured that sourcing the trigger was part of organizing a raid. And organizing is what you said the big guilds "should" do.
 

I think it would be nice of the larger guilds to be more open to facilitate this if a player comes forward, I know Builders would do it if asked. Since JohnQPlayer can't do it on his own and has elected not to guild should not lock him out of the content, those who can help out should. Our community is too small not to..

I don't know why, but that never occurred to me. Yes, if they're willing, that would probably address the issue.

It's probably better for me, too. After Fish's comments on difficulty, I'm not sure I can continue w/ the raids. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm restricting myself to only items I build/loot myself. And I only print items I loot myself. I don't buy items to print on market, because money's too easy to get. Generally, this means I play solo (another reason why I'm not in a guild). However, if I'm in a group and contributing atleast my fair share, it should be ok. But now that I know that others are doing the majority of the work in these raids, taking any loot is starting to feel too much like a handout. Forcing myself to provide the trigger seems like it would fix that.
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It's probably better for me, too. After Fish's comments on difficulty, I'm not sure I can continue w/ the raids. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm restricting myself to only items I build/loot myself. And I only print items I loot myself. I don't buy items to print on market, because money's too easy to get. Generally, this means I play solo (another reason why I'm not in a guild). However, if I'm in a group and contributing atleast my fair share, it should be ok. But now that I know that others are doing the majority of the work in these raids, taking any loot is starting to feel too much like a handout. Forcing myself to provide the trigger seems like it would fix that.

 

That self imposed limitation is not shared by many.. I know there are many who have developed to 150 or near to it and are at the end of content for that avatar.  Raids are the obvious step but the problem is access to that content.  I can trade for the parts for a Bile launcher for my TE but it would be really nice to get the Fury that drops in the FB that uses the same ammo to compliment the set, for example. 

 

Triggers are complicated to build and sometimes a camping nightmare, but if you can produce the trigger then the only thing "help" needs to bring is firepower and teamwork to complete the raid.. Asking Jamoos, Savic, Fish, Magoo or any one of the Builder's Inc regulars will probably result in a raid for you and your avatars if you have the trigger ready to go... Even the big 3 guilds can't do FB or gate because their own guilds are limited at certain times/days, but they have a better chance than the general non-guild/small guild population.  Members of VGE, Static or Epic are also frequent raiders, if you can nail down anyone in those guilds and discuss it you will be likely to get FB or Gate going. 

 

Also, a number of these guilds do these raids and have stored up components and items that drop from these raids that other players can't get their hands on.  Some of their members trade them to the general population, raid trigger parts, such as Feathers or BOO shields, even full up triggers can be used as trade materials.  Players that want to get their hands on Bile weapons or Bile Components to feed those weapons as well as ammo samples for printing could be wrenched from the hoarding fingers of those that have them for a feather or two.  I would also encourage these guilds to look in their vaults and spread some of these items around some. Once there is a suggested price for an item, people will come up with it.. Credits being a null trade currency it is likely that feathers, carapaces and triggers/parts are the best player accessible trade materials.  It would do us very good to come together and decide what the trade currency should be, how it is valued toward other items based on how rare the item is. But that may not be very easy to do. 

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That self imposed limitation is not shared by many..

You're too kind, I'd be surprised if there are any other oddballs out there like me that are stubborn about this.
 

I know there are many who have developed to 150 or near to it and are at the end of content for that avatar.  Raids are the obvious step but the problem is access to that content.  I can trade for the parts for a Bile launcher for my TE but it would be really nice to get the Fury that drops in the FB that uses the same ammo to compliment the set, for example.

Honestly, all I'm really interested in for the gate/fb raids are the beams. I'm not interested in the Bile stuff (other than adding another print), why would I want guns I have to fight or beg for ammo? My flechettes, I can buy the ammo comps right off a vendor. And the bile's only do 8% more damage, unless I'm reading something wrong. Don't know much about the missile side, but I don't see the appeal of the bile launchers either... raid-only ammo comps and lower damage than Zets. Seems they do use less energy and I suppose that could be an advantage w/ L8 reactors. The Wrath (I assume that's what you meant?) does have some nice buffs, though.

However, beams I'm stuck. I don't know of any L8/9 plasma beams that can be had outside of raids. So I had to make do w/ energy on my JE (where my PW/PP did most of the work). Just gave up on my JD until I could print better guns (have L8 pitbulls now, thanks to that first raid. But I failed the analyze on the L9).

The stuff I really want is from the bigger raids. So many of the good L8/9 devices can only be had there. I'm stuck using rada's to debuff plasma because I can't get the higher end chimaeras. But, as you say, I'm pretty much out of luck on those unless I bite the bullet and join a guild.
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You're too kind, I'd be surprised if there are any other oddballs out there like me that are stubborn about this.
 
Honestly, all I'm really interested in for the gate/fb raids are the beams. I'm not interested in the Bile stuff (other than adding another print), why would I want guns I have to fight or beg for ammo? My flechettes, I can buy the ammo comps right off a vendor. And the bile's only do 8% more damage, unless I'm reading something wrong. Don't know much about the missile side, but I don't see the appeal of the bile launchers either... raid-only ammo comps and lower damage than Zets. Seems they do use less energy and I suppose that could be an advantage w/ L8 reactors. The Wrath (I assume that's what you meant?) does have some nice buffs, though.

However, beams I'm stuck. I don't know of any L8/9 plasma beams that can be had outside of raids. So I had to make do w/ energy on my JE (where my PW/PP did most of the work). Just gave up on my JD until I could print better guns (have L8 pitbulls now, thanks to that first raid. But I failed the analyze on the L9).

The stuff I really want is from the bigger raids. So many of the good L8/9 devices can only be had there. I'm stuck using rada's to debuff plasma because I can't get the higher end chimaeras. But, as you say, I'm pretty much out of luck on those unless I bite the bullet and join a guild.

I agree about the Bile ammo... It is a bit of a pain that the ammo comps are not available on non-raid Ten-gu in Cooper... Perhaps some discussion with the Devs is needed there.. :)
As for beams, EoD beams and the Devastating Gaze beams are items you can trade for, but your playing parameters will make that a serious challenge... For your JD Defender's Pride (Dropped in Mordana raids) is an excellent beam for Plasma, I am not sure where the Made to Live beam drops I'll have to check on that, but it is not hard to get one made on Market, getting the print is a challenge though.  EoD beam and DG require parts that are from the raids GoD beam is loot only from Fishbowl.  All of these beams I believe are tied to raids as is the Emerald Disruptor (another JD coveted beam)  Your "All self-built" challenge will be hard to cope with once you get to L8 and 9 equipment, most of that comes out of raids.

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For your JD Defender's Pride (Dropped in Mordana raids) is an excellent beam for Plasma

Nice, thanks for the tip. Guess I may have to get motivated and organize some Mordanna raids... Still need pretty much all their stuff.
 

I am not sure where the Made to Live beam drops I'll have to check on that

Fishbowl, unfortunately.
 

Your "All self-built" challenge will be hard to cope with once you get to L8 and 9 equipment, most of that comes out of raids.

As much as people curse it, Agrippa has been a god-send for me. My JE used a L8 skirmish for months before I finally found a L8 proto in a hulk. And the lack of debuff devices isn't a big problem if I use impact on my PW/PP and stack gravity link w/ the Skirmish 9 debuff.
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You know I was a witness to something on tuesday. Our guild showed up to do gobb, which we have done quite a few times since last january/feb. And there was another guild there. Needless to say there was some friction. But ultimately we decided to activate the raid and get it going. Now, our groups are seasoned raiders and we have the tactical/organizational knowledge to take on these raids quite efficiently. We activated and decided to back off, just to see if they could pull it off. We did this twice. And it was a total slaughter, until we jumped back in after all the death. Nonetheless upon the arrival of the single bosses leading up to gobb they stuck around, asking us if we are "working together" and trying to ks the bosses from us, which in all honesty was more annoying than anything else being that they posed absolutely zero threat.

 

All in all, even with our "visitors" we still managed to pull off the raid with relative ease. But it became painfully obvious that guilds who have not been in the "rotation" or have not even thought about doing these raids are even close to capable of completing them in their entirety. This bunch couldn't even get past the first wave of mobs.

 

So yea, liucee makes a good point, and without help or "reinforcements" from guilds experienced in doing the raids in BBW/AP/and paramis any new guilds that see an uptick in manpower can't expect to just "jump right in" simply because they have the capacity to form two or three groups all of a sudden. It needs to be worked out diplomatically because this rotation has been in place for a number of years now and its not something, I think, can be easily thrown away.

 

Hell, I've even tried it myself when content was soloable, to "upset" the rotation because I thought the big guilds were so "evil" and "dominating" the game. They aren't. Just a group of people who have a vested interest in doing very difficult end game content. I remember trying to form pick up groups for gobb and troller on the rotation days of the big three, if anything it did nothing to further what i wanted and created a foul reputation for myself. I was in a small guild called phoenix who tried the same thing about two years ago, we wanted in on the rotation but lacked the ability to do the end game content effectively due to lack of organization/ts/and just experience. We wound up being able to do controller but not gobb, and the whole thing just got really really confusing.

 

Either way, the big guilds are here... forever... as has been proven by time, circumstance, and perseverance all maintained by some common sense manners and "rules" that keep everyone happy and out of each other's way. My point here is that there is nothing to disrupt, no guerilla tactics needed, and no pointless anger directed at any of the big three. I keep seeing the word "access", and that is definitely not the problem here. There is absolutely nothing preventing 12-20 people from getting in good with the rd's and heading into paramis/bbw or ap and attempting those raids, absolutely nothing as I saw on tuesday. The problem lies in lack of organization, experience, and a general know-how of game mechanics and leadership. Perhaps if the eager bunch of people we saw on tuesday had asked us for advice on how to do the raid and not given us a boatload of attitude and grief we would have happily showed them or instructed them...

 

My final point is this, whether or not you choose to hate or love or be indifferent about the big three, all of them are here to stay.

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Given the slope of decline in population, in a very short time the big guilds will be all that is left. Either people will join them because there is no where else to go, including smaller guilds merging with larger ones or because there isn't enough solo/non guild people left in the "General" population, driving people into the arms of the big three.  Since Static and VGE are not in active recruiting as far as I know this explains why BI is growing like a weed even though server pop is declining.

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I have been following this topic with great interest as I would like to be involved in the raids sometime soon and am not currently a guild member. I have been playing solo and joining a guild has not seemed important yet.

 

I notice that some emphasis has been placed on the suitability/experience needed to organise a successful raid.

 

So,  how do you go about getting the required level of expertise to enable you to organise a successful raid? Is it just a matter of participating in many raids led by others until you can copy what they do? Do the guilds run apprenticeships for prospective raiders? I think developing a toon and the correct attitude for taking part in raids starts way before level 150. I have reached OL135 before realising this, doh!

 

I am a solo player (tried multi-boxing and don't like it much) who has developed a toon with skills needed for the one rather than skills needed for the group. In order to develop a toon for raiding (and also develop yourself, I guess) it would be necessary to be involved in group play from very early on. The skills the toon/player combination best offers the group could be honed while letting  others contribute the skills they do better than you. Group playing skills (including leading) would be learned at lower levels where the stakes were not so high.

 

This may seem obvious/trivial but I think the point I am trying to make is that while easier raids may seem counter intuitive they would encourage group play at a lower level of toon (with suitable rewards). I am not sure about the balance of keeping the numbers of the mobs up and just dropping their level but that would seem to offer a reasonable challenge for those of us wishing to get a step onto the raid ladder. Raid kindergarten perhaps. These junior raids still need to be a challenge that requires group play and a reaonable level of organisation. The rewards need to be such that players of lower level toons are encouraged to seek each other out for a break from levelling whether they be guild members or not.

 

Now that I have been in the game a while and after reading through these posts I would have developed my toon differently so that we were both ready to contribute to a successful raid. There is still hope and as  a last resort for Piri the Doctor Pakratius :)

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I imagine that scaling raids to the level of whoever started the raid or whoever is activating stages of a raid would be very very hard to do and avoid abuse.  Smaller raids are a great idea, but again it isn't about individual skills of the player.  It comes down to teamwork.. which is not inherent to solo play.  Since most of the population that is not in a guild plays very much solo they do not develop the needed piloting skills and tactics needed to be successful in a raid.  how to watch reactors with your JE to know when/who needs charges.. How to diffuse agro when you are a healer.. best sequence to summon a group of mobs with your JD and avoid getting beaten down until the agro shifts to tank in the group, etc.  All of this comes with experience and practice.  

 

My advice would be, if you are intent on raiding a lot, consider a guild, they raid constantly... maybe after you've gotten when you need as far as experience and technique you could sponsor raids and help teach others how to do them, but that is part of what has been going on.  Attempts to do this so far have met with a very low success rate unless the raiding guilds get involved at some level to ensure success. 

 

After a few weeks in a major guild and a little bit of a learning curve you will learn how to operate your toon in a raid well enough you can support in your role.  In order to adequately organize raids from general public (read people who have not raided before) you will have to know the roles of everyone involved and how to explain the techniques and tactics to people who have never done it before.  Small raids are more forgiving, such as Mordana raids.  Gate and FB to a lesser degree, failure can be quick and catastrophic if certain things happen in those raids.  Major raids (GoBB, RD and Controller) would be met with a quick and certain death for all.  Those raids require a specific coordinated effort across 2 or 3 groups and even guilds that have run the raids dozens of times can "Oops" it and find themselves in trouble.  They, however, will recover themselves and continue. Inexperienced groups will end up with lots of XP debt and little to show for the effort.

 

That being said I would still love to see a way for non-guild/small guild players to "get it together" but from what I've seen that challenge is going to be hard to meet without tremendous effort of several people and a process to which people can "train up" for them. 

 

My recommended process would be to organize Mordana raids first.. and do them for a period of days or weeks until groups can form, successfully execute complete all 4 raids in KV with minimal deaths.  Once that is happening at a reasonable level, then start organizing Tada-O gate raids.  Do many of them, to both upgrade the equipment on routine raiders and get the spawns, loot and tactics down.  A well seasoned group of 6 well armed toons of the right classes can execute a gate raid and not even have a single death.  But initially 2 groups is best for this.  Enough firepower and backup to get it done in a reasonable amount of time... and then more forward... Getting this kind of long-term project going with players that play solo, at their own pace and without obligations to a guild is going to be extremely hard.

 

The best course, if you want to raid regularly, get into the raiding guilds, Epic, Static, VGE or Builders.  You will probably be surprised at the level of cooperation and coordination they have because some of these players have been raiding together since the EMU was in early development.  They love the game and are usually very helpful people. 

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I'd just like to clear a few things up, and I feel I am starting to repeat my self here:

 

  • Being in a large guild will not suddenly give you the "x-factor" with regards to raiding
  • Not everyone in a large guild likes raiding, or participates actively
  • You do not need to trigger large encounters to learn combat, medic or support proficiency

 

Unfortunately just because someone attends 100 or more raids, does not always mean that they improve. If you want to improve you need to actively involve yourself in every aspect of the encounter. From producing the trigger, activating, organising, and completing. Believe me when I say that a lot of people are just along for the ride. And always are, and subsequently never learn anything about the fundamentals, because they just sit back and let everyone else do the work.

 

As I posted earlier in this topic, if you did not learn your race and class specific role while you were levelling up. What the hell did you learn? If you only learnt to play solo and only have no relevant group skills as a result of it. Perhaps you should not of pigeon holed yourself. But this is just the beginning.

 

As Liucee quite rightly pointed out, you need to understand the role of each toon required in a party. And frankly it is not rocket science. Just because you only ever had a PS in live and never organised a raid. Does not mean that it takes mensa-brains to figure out that a group will need a healer, or two. Some warriors, and some explorer type buffs/regeneration tactics.

 

The idea of raid-workshops is cute, but come on now. Does someone have to hold your hand every step of the way?

No one told me how to play the game, and no one schooled me in my roles. 

 

This is going to sound harsh but another thing is figuring out who is best at what. If none of you know who the idiot is in your group. It's probably all of you. So you need to establish who plays their JD the best, and who plays their PW the best, and who is the most on the ball healer. And include that into the compiling of your group, because ultimately distributing intelligence properly is just as key to the success of frequent raiding.

 

And if you are offended by this, it means that you know you're useless. And obviously you're not, so now we're all back on speaking terms :)

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Fish makes many good points... Skunky had a desire to raid and get raids going for "the rest of us", he and others, some experienced at raiding, tried and met with some disappointment.  Now with some persistence that could be fixed, but the primary problem was when it came time to execute the raid, either people didn't want to or couldn't due to lack of development of their toons.

 

Most of the rewards in these raids are for high level toon, 135-150 range. Lacking enough people, leadership and coordination is what caused issues here.  There are ways to overcome those issues, but all of those solutions are normally roles of a guild.  Helping people level up, guiding skill development and helping equip the people that are going to be raiding via suggestion or direct assistance.  Guilds KNOW what needs to be happening so it is easy for them to tell a new TT in the ranks how to setup their toon to be more effective.  An inexperienced raider without guidance has to learn by trial and error, which will cause XP debt. 

 

Personally I think it's fine to be non-guild oriented, but one has to set the expectation of their end-game content to be limited to trading for the really high end gear that is available via trade, non-trade items that require direct looting from a raid will be problematic if not impossible to obtain.  But I think a toon that reaches 150 and has gotten all the toys they can in that scenario is just not going to get played very much except to assist in a multi-box situation.  Some people will actively over-ding their toon until it is completely maxed but it is more likely they will start a new one from a different class. A solo player can keep themselves occupied doing this for months. 

 

Raid content is not required to have a satisfactory setup for most classes, I think that people want the "Best of the best" for their beloved ship and this makes them want something that is out of reach for their circumstances, causing irritation that they can't get that ultimate-bad-mean-super weapon/reactor/shield/engine. But do you really need it?  Can your ship perform well in the content you are playing with? I have found that most cases the answer should be yes.  Tactics, careful research of the traded or player built equipment will render more than adequate equipment for any class.  Raid EQ is not required for any of the normally "Solo" content.

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I completely agree, and to corroborate Liucee's statement. How do you think anyone with raid gear ever got raid gear? You don't just start out with uber gear as you know. So somewhere along the line (usually at the beginning) some folks with non-raid gear had to complete these encounters with a standard setup. And believe me I was there, and it was tough.

 

I was the first to complete the waking-nightmare encounter and back then it was even more difficult to organise as absolutely no one was ready to raid. But with some gentle encouragement from my self and one of the DEVs we managed to get a group together and took down Hugo Chavez, which was considered the first encounter as of live. And yes it was tough, really tough. But worth it. Something which now most would take for granted.

 

Another example back when no one on the server even had the defenders pride mapped and ready for manufacture. I was still able to solo the CL66 comet with my JD toting a soulfire curse and 4 proto plasma beams. Now you lucky son's of guns get the ruby disruptor and defenders pride as standard. But you know there is better so your current gear seems some-what inferior, but it really is not.

 

As soon as everyone realises that it is the efficiency and effectiveness of the group as a whole. Not the individuals current set up that is going to make or break the encounter. Things will start to fall into place.

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Tactics, careful research of the traded or player built equipment will render more than adequate equipment for any class.  Raid EQ is not required for any of the normally "Solo" content.

I can attest to this, I have essentially no raid equipment (manuf or loot-only) and I can still kill pretty much anything outside of raids. I probably won't kill them as fast as supermen like Fish, but they'll die eventually. :)

Granted, I do multi-box. Usually w/ my PW,PP & JE. (But I do that as much for entertainment as anything. I find all these MMOs too boring, if I'm only allowed to run one toon at a time.)
 

Another example back when no one on the server even had the defenders pride mapped and ready for manufacture. I was still able to solo the CL66 comet with my JD toting a soulfire curse and 4 proto plasma beams. Now you lucky son's of guns get the ruby disruptor and defenders pride as standard. But you know there is better so your current gear seems some-what inferior, but it really is not.

Actually, this is part of why I use my "only self-built" rules. It's kinda fun to try and cobble together a workable character from only the equipment/skills I have available.

I've attempted the proto plasma route w/ my jenquai, but I only know of a few high level hulk spots so collecting them has been painfully slow (only now getting close to enough).
 

If you only learnt to play solo and only have no relevant group skills as a result of it.

Actually, I think I have multi-boxing to thank for whatever skills I do have. Particularly healing, as keeping track of all my toons/timing heals/balancing between healing and shooting has all been pretty similar in what the few raid I've experienced so far. (Of course, I'm assuming I actually am decent at healing, I've had a few compliments atleast...)

Not so much on the reactor front, though. My PW has no energy problems and my PP has few, so my JE is mostly along as a taxi and resist buffer. May swap him out for my TE, once he gets big enough.
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I was the first to complete the waking-nightmare encounter and back then it was even more difficult to organise as absolutely no one was ready to raid. But with some gentle encouragement from my self and one of the DEVs we managed to get a group together and took down Hugo Chavez, which was considered the first encounter as of live. And yes it was tough, really tough. But worth it. Something which now most would take for granted.

 

 

As I recall that group was made up almost entirely of JDs and JEs! Perhaps not the ideal raiding party!

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