Next wipe: randomly generate the universe

[posfordfan1220]

I'd like to suggest that the next wipe feature a randomly generated universe. Not necessarily quests and so forth, but locations at the very least. This should be possible.

[benom]

probably never gonna happen ... i imagine that would take a whole lot of work such as creating an AI to create such a world, a huge work with what should be in what kind of sector to prevent cl 50+ mobs in starter sectors and high lvl prospect in low lvl sectors

if this was run by "prof" (by that i mean payed ppl) it would be posible. a static solution as it is now is just so much easier/faster with what limited resources available

all i know of programming is no more than how to create a "hello world" app so not like i know much about it ;D

[Daywolf]

Wipes only deal with player information, like character removal or account removal, it doesn't effect the game environment just the same as the current one didn't. At some point, they will add patches/content, but just as is usual.

Random generation is rare, and I think only one mmo does it (I think) and that one isn't even in beta yet, has had a lot of problems etc. Seems like they have been working on that for a long time, cant recall the name atm, but it generates planets etc. I'm sure it'll be dull, random generation imo falls waaaaay short of well designed zones/areas. EnB can't do that, the layout of everything, like planets, npc spawn points, waypoints for the npc's to follow, all laid out by hand. If you have ever used a game editor, it's typically all laid out in detail with that editor. Maybe try out the free version of UnrealED, you'll learn alot playing around with it, has a demo zone you can jump right in editing. My second favorite thing to do is level editing with such editors, only second to modeling, texturing and animating (does that count as one? ).

[Juduzz42]

When you have randomly generated stuff, you get crap like hellgate london, or 200,00 weapons that look the friggin same, IE Bordemlands.

Infinity (quest for earth?) Is the MMO with the procedualy generated Systems and Duke nukem forever will be out before the one or so guy behind taht releases it

[Daywolf]

Duke Nukem Whenever

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

So it'd be a universe full of polygons then.

This is highly improbable with the way the client is set up, unless you want an empty black box with nothing in to explore.

[posfordfan1220]

So it'd be a universe full of polygons then.

This is highly improbable with the way the client is set up, unless you want an empty black box with nothing in to explore.

I don't understand what you're saying.

[Daywolf]

Well "empty black box" is a conceptual idea, only made physical by collision boxes/planes placed into the zone. Otherwise it's generally a great expansive black void stretching out to eternity... or to whatever limits the server has for tracking XYZ coordinates

If you were a part of ST1 or ST2 you might know the feeling of being thrown so far out that the zone is a dot far off on the horizon. Well like that but with no dot..

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

I don't think randomisation would work.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

We would have to build thousands of "pre-generated" sectors for it to "randomly" build a sector. We cannot generate them on the fly with the way the client itself works, it would have to be redesigned to handle such a thing. This is a pipe dream I'm afraid, but if you want to build and supply a working client, we'll get right on that.

[Daywolf]

Kyp is asking for the proverbial magic wand. Otherwise, we shall not pass.

[posfordfan1220]

We would have to build thousands of "pre-generated" sectors for it to "randomly" build a sector.

Why thousands? There are only ~100 or so sectors. Also, who said anything about generating them on the fly? The sector data is stored in a database, so the tool would only need to be operated once per restart/wipe at the database level.

Infinity (quest for earth?) Is the MMO with the procedualy generated Systems and Duke nukem forever will be out before the one or so guy behind taht releases it

There are non-MMO examples that have been released, though. MoO, Xconq, Elite, Vega Strike (OK this one's only half complete), etc... Not sure if Trade Wars was procedurally generated.

[Daywolf]

There are non-MMO examples that have been released, though. MoO, Xconq, Elite, Vega Strike (OK this one's only half complete), etc... Not sure if Trade Wars was procedurally generated.

The only way to do that with current technology apart from a decade of development is to turn EnB into a browser game. The client retains much of the static data for zones, but to change it to something else you would need to stream all the content to a new client (or massive patches) or with a browser. This means an entirely new system for EnB, far beyond an emulator project as it is. If one goes that rout, may as well make a Second-Life in space game and let players design. Bleh SL.

Anyway, there will not be that many wipes. Character wipes are only for pre-launch games in development. Once EnB is out of beta (after it even gets to beta), the wipes will be ended. So what would be the point of such a system if it could be done? It would be more expedient to just edit all the zones, to rebuild them and then to add more zones (as they plan to add more).

I would suggest this: start a dev team and get to work on it. If you do it in your spare time with maybe 15 or 20 people helping, you might get something going in 5 to 10 years. Meanwhile, by the time you get there, there may be a number of player run EnB servers sparked from the current project each with original content and play styles.

[posfordfan1220]

The client retains much of the static data for zones, but to change it to something else you would need to stream all the content to a new client (or massive patches) or with a browser.

Ah, OK. I didn't realize so much of the game universe data was hardcoded into the client. I assumed it had all been externalized into the database. I'm glad an expert was around to correct me!

However, if everything is hardcoded, then how will people hosting their own servers in the future be able to modify the sectors?

[Daywolf]

It’s not so much like “hard coded”, but just whatever in-house level editor the EnB dev team used that exported the content data. To change it, you would just edit those files and then issue patches to client and/or server as needed. If you had the editor, you would just load the zone and edit just like how UnrealED or any other editor works, fundamentally. Of course with UnrealED it’s all client side, but with an MMOG any data that needs to be secured is handled server side. But a good deal of the static environment is handled by the client, while server bulk handles actors (npc’s etc) so that bandwidth usage is minimized. If the server managed every object, well then you would need a really big server, not a desktop computer as it stands.

A programmer can probably explain it in detail, I mainly work with content development, but fundamental understanding is needed with most any workload.

[posfordfan1220]

So, you're saying that a Web browser would be needed since, fundamentally, the client data can't be patched without the UnrealED tool. Thanks, that's very helpful!

[Daywolf]

I only brought up UnrealED as an example. I suggested that you play around with it to get the basic understanding of development like this. They don't use UnreadED, I'm sure of that, but the principles are close. Web browser is just one option, it would probably be the quickest I think, at least for such a system where the server generates the zones however often. Thing is though, by the time you develop a server and then a new client, you may as well do it all original so you can make some money from it, to feed the family and sustain servers and player support.

[seekeronos]

The only way to do that with current technology apart from a decade of development is to turn EnB into a browser game ... This means an entirely new system for EnB, far beyond an emulator project as it is. If one goes that route, may as well make a Second-Life in space game and let players design. Bleh SL.

Second Life...?

*/me does a full body shudder*

SL is just plain nasty. Looked at it for a few days... and promptly un-installed it.

There were a few very well player designed areas, but for the most part, it was laggy, crappily designed "shopping malls"... and the "adult entertainment venues", both of which would have you wanting to gouge out your eyes with a wooden spoon after no more than 3 minutes of play.

Oh, and let's not forget the migraine-inducing neon-plaid swirling nightclub deco... ack.

In my opinion - in terms of overall game design - SL is a massive bag of fail - by reason of Linden Lab's limited user design tools and simple primitives (even the sculpted prims had a low max # of vertices and faces, where many games today use a mesh engine such as OGRE) and more so by the stunningly appalling lack of design talent with the average user.

As a social platform, it appears to be doing quite well though, but the directionless lack of organized content does not do well for keeping task/mission oriented people playing.

[cormenthor]

This looks like a good time to throw my 2 cents worth in to help to explain why such things as "randomly generated" universes are far from coming to pass here or anywhere else and EnB is one of the prime examples that comes to mind. First let me preface this by saying that in many places in the forums here, many ideas and thoughts of what should be added etc. have been thrown around haphazardly. To fully understand why many of these may not be implemented or even possible it needs to be understood what it took to get even to the point that we are at now.

I myself was a player of EnB from day 2 of the initial beta testing, yes I was one of the chosen few and was darn proud to be a part of it. Now bear in mind I speak of the "First" initial beta testing of the game by WestWood and EA in the days when this was done by submitting a 15 page disertation of why they should even consider you worthy to be a part of their testing group. With my background in computer hardware, software, etc. and being a hardcore gaming addict (and a few creds from other games I was a tester for) I got very lucky and got in. I say all this because I feel the pain of those that were involved with ST1 and ST2 and what they went through, my hats off to you guys.

That being said it needs to be understood that what we have now is in fact a recreation of what was the favorite game of many people, it is not in fact the actual EnB game that we all knew and loved. A damn good recreation and I give props to the wonderfull work of the Devs in getting it this far. To that end let me say that the "live" or "retail" version of EnB was not ever a simple client/server MMORPG. If it had been it would not have taken over 5 years to see it reborn. No, it was a programming work of art created with a plethora of tools that were written by and used by the very same people that created the game. No standard off the shelf programs were used in the creation of EnB. Every single tool they used they created in-house and was propriatry to the max. I know this for many reasons, some of which I can not relate here. But the very day that the sunset of EnB was announced attempts were made to use packet sniffing methods to get enough info to start the rebuilding process. Let me tell you that they failed miserably. First thing that was discovered is that all data packets were not only scrambled but heavily encrypted to boot. It took over 2 years to break that encryption and get even the first looks into the data streams between the server and client sides of the game.

What it appears that had been distilled from all the early work is that the bulk of the important files have been recovered, rebuilt, or remade entirely so that we now have a working replica of our favorite game of all time. I understand just how much time, work and effort has gone into getting it to the point that it is at now. Again I give a big hats off to the Dev team of EnB-emulator for their fantastic work.

But in the case of a randomly generated universe I'll be the fist to say that it's very unlikely to ever happen. The amount of data required for even 1 planetary sector is huge, in order to "randomly" generate even that 1 planetary sector would be immense to say the least. Not to mention that just the "variables" tables for planets, pathways, mobs, annomolies, "fixtures" (the "pretty" stuff that has no other pourpose then to dress up the area would be beyond gigantic (think several tera bytes) let alone for say 40 - 100 planetary sectors.

Not to mention the rest of the programming nightmares that come about with collision barriers terrain etc. Well wnough rambeling for now.

(Tips hat and walks away quietly)

[Antflyer]

Is posible mob navs one by one (Enb Tools) and other posibility is how the gates are linked, but this can afect trade routes unless trades are dinamic.