Guild Raid Rotation Change Suggestion

[Klyde]

Way back when... back before there were any agreements between the big3, each and every raid had 2-3 groups from the big3 sitting there ready to go when it spawned. As you can imagine, words were exchanged at times, banter about so-an-so ksing so-an-so, and a general feeling of ill-will ensued. Of course the raid would be so laggy the winner would normally be determined by who was able to keep enough folks in the raid to do the most damage and get credit for the kill. Things were really getting out of hand, to the point of BL telling everyone to play nice or the raids would be turned off.

 

So, we came to an agreement, and the rotation was born. It happened through much work of the dedicated folks at BI, Static, and VGE in an effort to calm things down and stop what was happening, Drama!

During this time, we all came to know each other and formed some friendships, and mutual respect was earned. Not to mention we didn't want the raids being turned off either. Lol

 

Sorry, I just felt the need to recap a little of why there is a rotation. :)

 

Edit, while I was typing and fixing typos Nik posted the above.

[Lannister]

Raiders,

 

I don't usually get involved here - I hate politics and these discussions always contain more posturing than usable date.

 

I do want to speak out on behalf of Epic Gamers in direct response to assertions that they are not yet ready, or need to prove themselves ready. I disagree.

 

I have personally watched Epic complete both gate and FB raids - multiple times.

I have made/traded/sold enough gear to assure you they are well equipped.

I have had Epic guild members in group during various Builders raids and found them capable and helpful.

They successfully completed the RD Base  - which is one of the hardest raids in the game.

 

So lets not make this about capability.

 

Finally my overall view: If we, the current big 3, cannot flex our agreement for additional large guilds who can (and eventually will) do the raids then the agreement will dissolve to free-for all again. That Epic has shown admirable restraint in not jumping right in and doing these raids is another point in their favor. They have every right to take the next GoBB, Controller, or RD Base raid but have held off to reach a formal agreement.

 

Just my $.02

 

Lannister

Builders Inc.

[Prrekoorb]

:)

 

[rkgrau]

 

So lets not make this about capability.

 

Finally my overall view: If we, the current big 3, cannot flex our agreement for additional large guilds who can (and eventually will) do the raids then the agreement will dissolve to free-for all again. That Epic has shown admirable restraint in not jumping right in and doing these raids is another point in their favor. They have every right to take the next GoBB, Controller, or RD Base raid but have held off to reach a formal agreement.

 

Just my $.02

 

Lannister

Builders Inc.

It is only partly about capability, its also about consistency and diplomacy. Are they capable of doing the raids, yes they can. However, if you look back at this thread and see the post where Magoo offered EG GoBB the conversation became "Fridays are no good for us" and such other things. Can they consistently take these raids down? What if Goodhumorboy can't take that day off work?

Capability and consistency are both still valid concerns.

As far as not jumping in on raids... You might have missed it Lann, but they have already done that. Thats a tricky move, isnt it? I mean if you jump in and take it! You win! If you jump in and get trounced then you run to the forums and say "My bad, lets move forward another way." I'll let you concluded on your own which way it went for EG.

 

Despite any transgressions we arent here simply saying NO. We are offering up peaceful, fun solution and can provide everyone to get in on these raids and one in which Epic can put to rest any concerns other guilds might have about them. They can take part in the raids, prove themselves both capable and consistent as well as prove they can work within the confines of diplomatic agreement, and begin to work with all three guilds in this agreement, rather than just one.

 

We all know, or at least hope, that new content is on the horizon and that it may contain another raid. I see no reason why this proposal could not be accepted and implemented until such time and when it does if Epic is proven as up to snuff I would see no reason as to why they couldnt be added.

[Canman]

EG has on more then one occasion shown hostile intents during our raids. While we are not going to hold all of EG accountable for the actions of a few it should be put out there the facts. On 1 GOBB  raid an instance of EG members trying to steal unsuccessfully a raid which we activated. Another just in the last few days members of EG harrassed our members on a GOBB raid. While they didnt try to steal the raid it was clear that they was comfortable with no reguards to others trying to raid. I also know that EG has been mislead on how to correctly request and apporach for a spot in the rotation.

 

We want peace with EG but will not submit to bullying. EG has been again mislead into believing Static is weak and not raiding. That could not be further from the truth and I suggest you dont test us on that.

 

This rotation is completely fair in all respects. This will allow ANYONE who wants a shot at a spiiter or see the hulk of the controller in front of their ship.  Static wants EVERYONE to raid. That is why we pushed so hard for device activated raids. The Devs seen otherwise so we moved on and now we come to this solution to making sure ALL get a chance at endgame content.

[Vitaes]

It is only partly about capability, its also about consistency and diplomacy. Are they capable of doing the raids, yes they can. However, if you look back at this thread and see the post where Magoo offered EG GoBB the conversation became "Fridays are no good for us" and such other things. Can they consistently take these raids down? What if Goodhumorboy can't take that day off work?

Capability and consistency are both still valid concerns.

As far as not jumping in on raids... You might have missed it Lann, but they have already done that. Thats a tricky move, isnt it? I mean if you jump in and take it! You win! If you jump in and get trounced then you run to the forums and say "My bad, lets move forward another way." I'll let you concluded on your own which way it went for EG.

 

Despite any transgressions we arent here simply saying NO. We are offering up peaceful, fun solution and can provide everyone to get in on these raids and one in which Epic can put to rest any concerns other guilds might have about them. They can take part in the raids, prove themselves both capable and consistent as well as prove they can work within the confines of diplomatic agreement, and begin to work with all three guilds in this agreement, rather than just one.

 

We all know, or at least hope, that new content is on the horizon and that it may contain another raid. I see no reason why this proposal could not be accepted and implemented until such time and when it does if Epic is proven as up to snuff I would see no reason as to why they couldnt be added.

 

Epic Gamers has already shown that they can do the raids, so put the capability argument to rest. Maybe they can't get together every single time, but they can certainly do them. Why not have them in the rotation? If for some reason they can't do a raid (for whatever reason) some other guild can jump in and do it. It's not rocket science. Are you saying that if a guild can't do it as per schedule that they can't be in the rotation? Gee, do you have any other conditions too???

 

As for raid jumping, have you address the officers of EG? Perhaps you have, as I haven't been on much lately for real life reasons. I'm an officer in EG, and no one has ever said a word to me about this issue. I do know that the times I have been on, no trash talking about any guild has been taking place, and that the members of EG are patiently waiting for the decision.

 

Also, if a bunch of people, random or otherwise, want to do a raid and fail, who the hell cares? it's a game--a game--nothing more. I see people argue about this like it's national policy. Really?

[Tradermagoo [GrA]]

I for one would like to see a 12 person public group try and knock out one of the 3 raids by themselves.

 

Yeah the 3 major guilds because of experience and practice typically do these raids with 2 groups and a few hangers on.

 

Do you honestly believe you could get a disorganized group of 12-18 people together run the raid and distribute loot that is fair to everyone?

 

I for one would like to see you do it.

 

As for loot:

 

I've had pretty standard loot rules in places for years running BI.

 

Need before greed.

 

If you need it roll on it no favoritism( and kudos to the random generator(said tongue in cheek) may the best roll win.

 

Everyone gets something they want eventually you just have to keep playing the random game.

 

It took me the guild leader about 15 rd base raids to get a chang lung's pride and 4 more before I got the ya zi long's hellbore.

 

7-8 people had one before i did and I run the joint.

 

So yes people get what they want but it takes time.

 

With that said I've had since jan 2010 to sort out the looting rules.

 

Do you think a public group could do the same with random people they may or may not like?

 

Good luck I'd suggest you tackle Gobb or the Troller first before you attempt to do the rd base without people you can trust backing you up.

 

As for why we do this with the rotation this is the last time I want to answer this question.

 

It's simple, BI ran the raids because most of the warrior types in the guild are european.

 

We did all 3 raids before everyone else got home from work.

 

Static and VGE were getting mighty pissed about the entire situation and to stop an all out guild war Lannister( bless his heart) with the help/participation of the other guilds hammered out a tentative agreement to rotate the raids.

 

Since then we have altered the rotation to allow ( upwards of 5 guilds at one point) into the rotation.

 

Since we went live there has been 3 guilds that could and can do all the raids in the game.

 

BI Static VGE.

 

Since we had an agreement in place to not interfere with the other 2 guilds we are agressive about new guilds trying to knock off "our" raids.

 

I for one encourage people to get groups together and do mordana and fish raids to get a good core group or two together before they try and tackle a major 2+ group raid.

 

BUT... you will find the 3 major guilds are pretty agressive about new groups trying to get a raid in.

 

BI tends to do raids in the morning EST because of the makeup of the guild roster.

 

VGE and Static are more american eccentric in makeup and do theirs more during the day and evening.

 

Epic is trying to get into the rotation with the other 3 guilds and since they are not part of the original agreement they must petition to join the rotation they have taken the needed steps required to do so.

 

There is some things to work out between us and them and once it's settled they are in or out based upon our votes.

 

It's not rocket science but you have to pass muster.

 

Did you ever get anywhere by telling 300 people no and expecting them to like it?

 

Would you like to get 2-3 groups up from the public and knock off a raid once in a while?

 

Go for it if you have started I know BI will just watch and finish the raid if you flop.

 

I do not know how Static and VGE wil react but knowing them I'd say your odds are not great.

 

I dunno why people make such a big deal out of this tbh.

 

Epic wants to join the rotation and were trying to see the process done.

 

It's simple really there is no blocking or any other nonsense going on but we 3 guilds have an agreement and this is how you join in the agreement.

 

If you want to be independant of our agreement that is by your choice but do not expect to get away with it very easily.

[alurra [Fmr. ADV]]

@Vitaes. I would like to know what the difference is between your statement "If for some reason they can't do a raid (for whatever reason) some other guild can jump in and do it." and the option that Nick provided are?

 

I am not trying to start an arguement or be confrontational, I only would like to know what your perceptions of what you stated and what Nick proposed are because from my point of view, they are indeed the same things.

[Tradermagoo [GrA]]

@ Allura

 

At times some guilds do not have enough people online that day or 2 days and can offer up the raid to the public/other guilds

 

Say we are short people to do a guild day raid and know we wont get enough people online that day to do a raid we can offer it up to the public with our help.

 

So say it's VGE's off week and they have the people to do it or aid us they can offer to help us do the raid( it has happened before btw)

 

Maybe a few public people can come along and have a shot at the loot.

 

Since it's BI's week it's our guild loot rules(need before greed)

 

We do the raid and everyone can roll on the items( and yes we have had public people along and they have won gear).

 

That is one senario that comes to mind.

 

I'm sure others can come up with others.

 

That is my general interpretation of that part.

 

Take 2

 

If we decide to make it a fully public raid then all 4 guilds can send people and the public can come along.

 

We'll ask the say 8 people from the 4 guilds to split up and take over a group 2-3 people each then invite public people till get get between 12-15-16 avatars ready.

 

Then run the raid as the hosting guild.

 

I've yet to see a blacklisted guild( altho if the goon's I've heard about from eve show up i know they wont be loved for long).

 

I for one in take 2 would require the big 3-4 guilds to not take loot and let the pubbies roll on it.

 

I would suggest to all of the people not in the bigger guilds to download teamspeak and ventrilo and log in and join the more public guilds and talk to us and join in our raids.

 

BI for one uses the dev's teamspeak.

 

So does Epic.

[Tradermagoo [GrA]]

Static –Troller /skip/Rd Base/GoBB
 BI  -  GoBB /Troller /Skip/Rd Base
VGE - Rd Base/GoBB/troller/Skip
Pubs - Skip /Rd Base/GoBB/troller

 

I am awaiting Static and VGE's vote in our pm between us before we go ahead with this.

 

You guys know I let VGE and Static set the rotation.

 

Second do we start the rotations the next week if ratified. or do we pick a specific week and start then?

[Vitaes]

@Vitaes. I would like to know what the difference is between your statement "If for some reason they can't do a raid (for whatever reason) some other guild can jump in and do it." and the option that Nick provided are?

 

I am not trying to start an arguement or be confrontational, I only would like to know what your perceptions of what you stated and what Nick proposed are because from my point of view, they are indeed the same things.

 

Nic and I took it to a nice private conversation. No dirty laundry or trash talking, just want to see what few differences we have. I am certain everyone wants a fair and equitable solution that would benefit the entire player base.

[alurra [Fmr. ADV]]

@ Allura
 
At times some guilds do not have enough people online that day or 2 days and can offer up the raid to the public/other guilds
 
Say we are short people to do a guild day raid and know we wont get enough people online that day to do a raid we can offer it up to the public with our help.
 
So say it's VGE's off week and they have the people to do it or aid us they can offer to help us do the raid( it has happened before btw)
 
Maybe a few public people can come along and have a shot at the loot.
 
Since it's BI's week it's our guild loot rules(need before greed)
 
We do the raid and everyone can roll on the items( and yes we have had public people along and they have won gear).
 
That is one senario that comes to mind.
 
I'm sure others can come up with others.
 
That is my general interpretation of that part.
 
Take 2
 
If we decide to make it a fully public raid then all 4 guilds can send people and the public can come along.
 
We'll ask the say 8 people from the 4 guilds to split up and take over a group 2-3 people each then invite public people till get get between 12-15-16 avatars ready.
 
Then run the raid as the hosting guild.
 
I've yet to see a blacklisted guild( altho if the goon's I've heard about from eve show up i know they wont be loved for long).
 
I for one in take 2 would require the big 3-4 guilds to not take loot and let the pubbies roll on it.
 
I would suggest to all of the people not in the bigger guilds to download teamspeak and ventrilo and log in and join the more public guilds and talk to us and join in our raids.
 
BI for one uses the dev's teamspeak.
 
So does Epic.

I would ask you why this was directed to me as I am well versed in how the rotation works but it seems irrelevant as my original question was posed to Vitaes who answered it.

If you are trying to explain a stance or opinion from yourself then you should clarify that. I read your response no less than three times and am still unclear if you are posting as 1/3 of the current raid council or a member of Epic Gamers.

[Canman]

I put up Nikademus as Statics Pug raid leader.

[rkgrau]

 

Static –Troller /skip/Rd Base/GoBB
 BI  -  GoBB /Troller /Skip/Rd Base
VGE - Rd Base/GoBB/troller/Skip
Pubs - Skip /Rd Base/GoBB/troller

 

I am awaiting Static and VGE's vote in our pm between us before we go ahead with this.

 

You guys know I let VGE and Static set the rotation.

 

Second do we start the rotations the next week if ratified. or do we pick a specific week and start then?

 

I at the very least we will have to add another skip week to the public schedule, as im sure no one want to start with with RD Base! :o

 

I put up Nikademus as Statics Pug raid leader.

/accepted!

[Bleakend]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pwc0klMRSQ

 

All the days... became so loooong... Did you really think, I'd do ya wrong?

[GetOffMe]

What are the chances that Static and Epic Gamers can meet on TS, in the next couple days?

If ur more comfortable, a 3rd party can be present.

[ichistarr]

Excuse me but could we get back to the original question here..................Does EG get a spot in the rotation NOT does a public raid get a spot in the rotation................can we get a vote and go by the results of the vote?

[Talari]

What needs to happen, Is the Lead position needs to swap, after each Rotation, So one clan cannot hold/or  monopolize  the roster.

Talking to multi-parties now, I am starting to lean toward the drama is coming from a single direction when it comes to raids.

 

On a development side, The instance need to be lowered, and need a random regeneration factor set on them (something like 1-2 hours to 5-6 hours) so one

single clan cannot monopolize it anymore.

 

On top of this, random spawns (Boss mobs) should become even more frequent and offer the same loot as raids.

[Daath]

What needs to happen, Is the Lead position needs to swap, after each Rotation, So one clan cannot hold/or  monopolize  the roster.

Talking to multi-parties now, I am starting to lean toward the drama is coming from a single direction when it comes to raids.

 

On a development side, The instance need to be lowered, and need a random regeneration factor set on them (something like 1-2 hours to 5-6 hours) so one

single clan cannot monopolize it anymore.

 

On top of this, random spawns (Boss mobs) should become even more frequent and offer the same loot as raids.

You are kicking a hornets nest... just FYI

[Talari]

Yes, I am well aware of that, and its intentional. I want to bat the hornets, and let them know they cant be bullying people around, and to work with the community is better then ones self.

Imo, it should be based on a need System, Who NEEDS it, Why do we have to have this clan vs clan crap? mix it up, and give the management of the rotation to a GM.

Public players = First. Problem solved. 

[Daath]

the 4 guilds in question here represent 80% of the game population.. so just let them sort their stuff out in peace, they don't need extra crap..

[Talari]

There is one guild here bullying the others around (or trying to do so), And are for sure bullying other newer guilds, or general population around. Drama has gone on long enough, personally think they need a little taste of justice and should sit out of raids for a few weeks, then be put in the back of the line for a few months so they get a really good idea of how they should not bully others. I have little respect for such individuals, Tbh.

[Tradermagoo [GrA]]

Talar nobody is bullying anyone, have you never had to get people to agree to your plan before?

 

All 3 guilds had questions to be answered.

 

It's the same thing were using a proceedure to get them into the rotation.

 

It's all 3 guilds yes or no, not majority rules and getoffmee has asked if static would like to meet them in teamspeak.

 

It's called negotiations.

 

This is pretty peacefull considering the stuff we went thru late last winter and into the springtime when this thread was started.

[Muhir]

Meh... we should just wipe guilds and let the dust settle for a bit!

 

 

Not that I have a longing for chaos and total anarchy or anything.......

[Talari]

Na magoo, Its not called  negotiation, when multiple people (including yourself) is saying that they are trying to bully others out of using raids.

Its bullying when they are sending single players to start events they cant possible due (Like your clan).

Further, If thats the way you guys want to behave I'd expect the staff to step in and do something, not sit there.

This is why the game is having issues, The mechanical operation of the raid instance should of been fixed.