Mining question (concern/possible issue)

[Knight05]

I've noticed since the last patch at least purely from my own personal mining experience that roids are popping like crazy. I'm talking realisticall 3/5 if not 4/5 roids popping on me of all types levels shapes and sizes. I know gas popping was added but as a level 150 JE decked out to the core with the best possible mining gear I can use (to my knowledge) I'm popping at least 60% if not 70% or so of my mines. This is very frustrating to me. Im primarily hunting 8 and 9's and I realize pop rocks are a part of the game but it just seems so excessive as of late.

 

Please dont mistake this as a QQ or rant thread its more like a.... Am i missing something here thread? Or perhaps the devs could look over the numbers or code or statistics and make sure that its working as intended and that it's just me. It just seems really bad right now. I know some people who are not having any issues at all and a couple who are saying its worse than my experience even.

 

So my question is now that gas is added to the pop rock family is it ever going to be possible to revisit the number of pop rocks in a particular field and possibly tone it down some? Make it less than 10% or something or make it a random small chance vs a static number of roids that WILL be pop rocks.

 

Im new to the game so maybe I'm missing something on how it works in game or with the numbers and code etc. Perhaps someone can fill me in and post their own personal experiences right now on mining and pop rocks ONLY. To much, to little, just right?

 

Thanks :)

[Zackman [LDEV]]

Hi,

 

the latest patch was adding poprocks to gas fileds, but besides from this change there was nothing changed in regards to frequency/amount of poprocks, so i guess it was just "luck" on your side.

Sometimes you hit a field with no Poprocks and sometimes 8 in a row.

[Knight05]

Ive been testing it for about 3 hours straight now and it seems to be majority wise only level 9 items. I just tried mining grail water 11 times back to back in a field and 9 of the 11 blew up in my face.  Then i tried another level 9 ore eurabite or w/e and out of 6 tries 5 flew in my face.  Then i tried mining rutha 13 times and 8 failed. Im using the best gear for mining I know of like I said.

 

I also tested the same thing on 7-8 ores and found almost none with the level 7 and maybe 3-4 every 26 or so with level 8.  Is there a possibility that the failure chance for level 9 ores is off?? Because even when i find level 9 ores on level 8 asteroids etc it almost ALWAYS blows up afterwards. It could be a coincidence but unless there is some strange mechanic at bay it feels off. If you have time could one of the dev test it and compare results?

[SiSL]

I mined whole week including yesterday over ~15000 ores now, I've noticed no change on number of pop-rocks. It always was around same... 

Edited April 25, 2013 by SiSL

[Attronach]

Same observation like Knight.

Much more pop's. There are really 'colorfull' roids which I can see in 100% cases.

But sometime rock looks like normal rock and BOOOM (I swear I have good monitor and I'm not blind).

 

My feeling is something changed in % poprock and even with roid 'visual'.

[Curis[IS]]

I was mining in Tarsis a couple of days ago and found some discolored roids (typically pop rocks) that were actually minable.

[GenghisBob]

Besides the color, if there are ores above the 'roid level or the quantity of ore is unusually high, it's gonna blow.  Finding 14 level 9 grail water in a level 8 'roid is a popper.

[Amethyst]

If it looks too good to be true it usually is.  Seeing 10 juicy L9s in a L7 roid is a sure sign. 

 

I've noticed no difference this week, other than the toning down of the roid-monsters (boo - I like getting a bit of combat xp clearing up the mobs).

 

As Zackman says its chance.  You may see none in a field or several, every one might blow up or maybe none.  You may get 10 in a row on a bad (good?) day.  If you are mining 'at your level' then you dont notice them blowing up unless you hit 4 in a row in which case a bit of caution is needed.  If you are pulling L9s with maxed reactor and prospect but a thin shield then yes, it is a little scary - don't steal the candy unless you are prepared for the consequences!!

[GenghisBob]

Mining isn't stealing!!!  It's a job, just like trade runs.  Why don't trade runs have any risk? 

 

I don't think there should be any pop rocks or ore guardians.  Supposedly they are there to get rid of botters.  And that should be the only reason they are there.

 

Why is mining the ONLY occupation that has 'risk' that is not part of the description.  Combat, sure, that is expected.  But trade has no risk.  Why does mining?  It is much closer to trading than it is to combat.  And explorers are less prepared for combat than traders are.

[Terrell [BT]]

Mining should have some risk, but I haven't played my JE much since the new patch, will have to go out and mine some.  I would be in the maxed prospect but thin shields category right now.  Even when I reach 150 my shields will be somewhat thin being a JE.  When you do your first missions as a JE there are enemies in the field you mine near the refuse area.  Abandoned Drones & Haywires if I recall correctly.

 

I do think that orefields should usually have guardians, though I wouldn't have a problem with some off the beaten path ones being unguarded.  My only concern with orefield guardians is whether or not they can be handled by a well played JE.   If it's possible, at some point in the future something I'd love to see, is the ability of about 1/3 - 1/2 of the fields in game have the ability to spawn in random locations.  I don't know if the game can do that though, whether it's directly or something improvised to give the appearance of random location orefields.  The random ones could have better rewards than the "fixed" fields.

[Vitaes]

Mining in real life is dangerous, so might as well have a bit of excitement in game too. With excellent scan range, fold space, and the ability to cloak and move while cloaked, a well-played lv 150 JE should be able to mine any field in game with little fear of death.

 

Now, as far as traders having dangers as well...hey, we have pirates, right? I remember being pulled out of warp and being attacked back in live. Also, how about some fluctuating markets? Maybe a set up where a station has taken in so many trade goods of one kind that the supply and demand curve has to make an "adjustment" for a short time. I'll bet it would suck for the botters to wake up and find that they lost money and gained no xp due to a local market crash.

[VincentTH]

I still remember my hate of being pulled over by RD checkpoint in Inverness in Live when I was running a tour :unsure:

[Knight05]

I'm not saying mining as a whole or even pop rocks are off as much as I'm saying level 9 ores that go boom are off. I'm talking 100% stricly level 9 ores carbons etc (dont see a problem with gas) its majority wise carbons but ores are off to it feels to me. But like i said only level 9 ores and yes I am mining level 9 roids the majority of the time. I'm not seeing grail water on level 8's and then complaining when it pops. I've been mining it on level 9's primarily and thats where the basis of my stats come from that I posted above. It just seems to me like ive said several times now that there is an increase in pops on non discolored pop rocks that from what im told are pre determined and picked in any field vs being randomized at any given time more or less.

 

I just was hoping a dev could go to a few primarily level 8-9 fields and focus on mining level 9 carbons and roids only going for the level 9 ores for an hour or 2 and tell me if it doesn't feel off and like somethings wrong to you. I'm fine with risk for reward and random chance etc etc but it's gotten to the point at least for me personal that its so bad lately with over 60% of level 9 ores popping on me that I won't even bother because it feels like im wasting my time trying to mind something already relatively rare compared to other resources just to have them blow up continously the majority of the time. And 1-2 hrs for maybe 20-30 level 9 ores of a specific time in my cargo hold doesn't feel like a good time/reward ratio. But thats just me personally. I'll stick to ammo ores for the time being.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Knight05

[Mattsacre]

Those boomers are because of mining frequency. If you mine the ores again and again, the respawn has more and more boomers chance in it, since the L9 ores are the most valuable, that's what is being mined out the most, when it respawns there is a chance of boomer adding, then when someone mines it again the pass over the obvious boomer, they clean out the L9 ores, it respawns and there is another boomer, that's 2..rinse repeat. Soon you have a bunch of boomers.

 

Do that with a L7-8 field (there is much more in those fields, it takes longer to clean them out) and when it respawns its going to have a couple of boomers, clean it out again and there are a few more boomers, keep doing it and you are going to have the conditions you see with the L9. It's the intensity also that may be more memorable, you REALLY want that L9..it goes boom and you hate it more, a L7-8 booms..meh, theres lots more, it don't impact you mind as much. That and a L7-8 boom isn't as big to shield as a L9 is.

[Manfredjinsinjin]

Mining should have some risk, but I haven't played my JE much since the new patch, will have to go out and mine some.  I would be in the maxed prospect but thin shields category right now.  Even when I reach 150 my shields will be somewhat thin being a JE.  When you do your first missions as a JE there are enemies in the field you mine near the refuse area.  Abandoned Drones & Haywires if I recall correctly.

 

I do think that orefields should usually have guardians, though I wouldn't have a problem with some off the beaten path ones being unguarded.  My only concern with orefield guardians is whether or not they can be handled by a well played JE.   If it's possible, at some point in the future something I'd love to see, is the ability of about 1/3 - 1/2 of the fields in game have the ability to spawn in random locations.  I don't know if the game can do that though, whether it's directly or something improvised to give the appearance of random location orefields.  The random ones could have better rewards than the "fixed" fields.

/agree with GB and I'd like to point out to Terrell, guardians are why you have cloak, quick warp via navigate, and guns. 

 

There is no character or ship strength that can be applied against poprocks. At all. This is why it is a horrible and gamebreaking idea. You don't put deadly risks into a core class activity that players can do nothing about but resurrect from. 

 

Lest the criers cry "crybaby" I'll point out I have a PRO-poprock idea posted, one which makes ANY roid a potential popper, but calculates the percentage based on player skill. The higher above your prospect level you are going for, the greater the risk.

 

While hardly ideal (any player-triggered threat should also be counterable by character abilities, and KABOOMYOU'REDEAD is not something you can apply character abilities against and win), it's better than making people mine in a minefield.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Manfredjinsinjin

[Terrell [BT]]

/agree with GB and I'd like to point out to Terrell, guardians are why you have cloak, quick warp via navigate, and guns. 

 

There is no character or ship strength that can be applied against poprocks. At all. This is why it is a horrible and gamebreaking idea. You don't put deadly risks into a core class activity that players can do nothing about but resurrect from. 

 

Lest the criers cry "crybaby" I'll point out I have a PRO-poprock idea posted, one which makes ANY roid a potential popper, but calculates the percentage based on player skill. The higher above your prospect level you are going for, the greater the risk.

 

While hardly ideal (any player-triggered threat should also be counterable by character abilities, and KABOOMYOU'REDEAD is not something you can apply character abilities against and win), it's better than making people mine in a minefield.

 

I agree about cloak, fold, Coma, various tactics (like shooting from behind or fold kiting), quick escapes, etc.  That's what I'm talking about when I say handled by a well played JE.   IMO it's only a problem if an orefield is crawling with guardians, such that one is too busy fighting to get the opportunity to mine, the guardians have great scan range & see cloaked, or if the orefield guardians are way over level, compared to the ores they're guarding.   I could have no problem with orefield guardians up to around CL58 if it's an especially valuable L9 orefield.

 

If I understand you correctly I agree that pop-rocks shouldn't be boom = instant death.   I do think that they should have one effect per rock, and mentioned them in an earlier thread.   The things I mentioned, if I recall correctly they were hostile mob (with interesting loot),  shield damage,   random buff, &  random debuff.    I could see other things possible as well.

 

As for every rock being a potential pop-rock, well, I don't know if I'd support or oppose that, would probably depend on the details, and how much ore is around to be mined. 

[cpwings]

All the talk about a well-played JE haveing no problem makes me ask, do you remember there are two other races with miners that don't have cloak.

I'd like to hear from them also. Their perspective is probably different and counts just as much IMO.

[Mattsacre]

+1 there cpwing!
playing all 3 miners maybe I can add, the PS has the single highest sig than the other 2 and far fewing engine choices (only a solar sail they have low to mid range to lower sig passive, nothing actually lowering sig active), while powerdown is thier "escape" mechanism, you don't actually escape, you sit there and hope the guardian leaves, if they are a ore guardian...they don't, they are tethered to the ores!

Your only options is hope they move far enough if they aren't a stationary one that you can get a warp off in time before they cap you. Or kill the guardian (which takes ammo, which takes hold space, which limits the ores you can hold). Now that they have added the 15 minute respawn timer to the rock guards it has given the PS/TS a bit of a repreave, they can go to the trouble of killing the mob and then mine as fast as they can for 15 minutes before they have to do it again.

The TS while not having the highest sig. they also don't cloak, so they too either have to kill the mob or flee, at least they can flee far better, they have a better into warp time than PS and faster thrust, and a far greater engage window for killing, they can sit off the mob and kite it then move in and mine for 15 min. the PS don't have that thrust or kite ability, they got to soak it up, since the shield recharge during battle don't work, their shield enhancing devices don't work, they better pray they haven't under judged the guard that others can slink away from, especially with mobs being able to disable engines etc.

It is what it is for the PS/TS, until they fix shield recharge the PS's main combat survivability (it's shields and shield manipulation) is handicapped. both can't hide, they have to kill the guards to get the goodies, that 15 timer sure helps, no the single most enfuriating thing to me on my PS/TS has been other players!

I deal with all the problems with guards and poprocks and boomers etc. But it's the A-hole players that swoop in whilst your handling the mob and pick the prime ores you are killing the mob to get at! leaving you the crap ores! Or if they are nice and are just cleaning out the field instead if cherrypicking, you get far less of the field bonus since they have the ores half gone by time you start in on them. Since that is as it is, players exploiting the opportunity to clean it out while you are busy, there isn't a real way to stop rudeness, how about the guards/poppers actually have something good as loot!, right now they are just vendor trash and comp farms.

[Manfredjinsinjin]

All the talk about a well-played JE haveing no problem makes me ask, do you remember there are two other races with miners that don't have cloak.

I'd like to hear from them also. Their perspective is probably different and counts just as much IMO.

ZING! Nice one. The TS especially seems vulnerable to these problems.

[Manfredjinsinjin]

I agree about cloak, fold, Coma, various tactics (like shooting from behind or fold kiting), quick escapes, etc.  That's what I'm talking about when I say handled by a well played JE.   IMO it's only a problem if an orefield is crawling with guardians, such that one is too busy fighting to get the opportunity to mine, the guardians have great scan range & see cloaked, or if the orefield guardians are way over level, compared to the ores they're guarding.   I could have no problem with orefield guardians up to around CL58 if it's an especially valuable L9 orefield.

 

If I understand you correctly I agree that pop-rocks shouldn't be boom = instant death.   I do think that they should have one effect per rock, and mentioned them in an earlier thread.   The things I mentioned, if I recall correctly they were hostile mob (with interesting loot),  shield damage,   random buff, &  random debuff.    I could see other things possible as well.

 

As for every rock being a potential pop-rock, well, I don't know if I'd support or oppose that, would probably depend on the details, and how much ore is around to be mined. 

 

My proposal was a bit more involved than "all roids are poprocks". (I'm explaining in more detail here as I've had time for the idea to percolate). Basically I suggested changing the mining process from open roid / mine ore, to blow roid up with the prospect beam and pick up ore as loot. Roids would have the level against which your prospect is measured, ores would keep the level for refine purposes.

 

In this model, a roid above your prospect level (regardless of device level) would have a chance of getting away from you and going kaboom to a degree determined by the level difference. Mobs in poprocks would still spawn, but if the roid is your level or less, you wouldn't get any ill effects besides a level-appropriate mob in your face. If you were mining above your level, the effects of the explosion would apply too.

 

This institutes player-driven choice for the risk of a poprock instead of the (imo) arbitrary deal now. And it keeps everything balanced by default - a player sticking to their prospect level would only ever deal with a level-appropriate baby guardian coming out of the rock they just mined. If they choose to kick it up a notch because they think they can handle the consequences, the risk / reward ratio applies (and more power to them).

 

 (*implementation note - although I seriously favor blind prospecting by type and level of roid, the mechanic could possibly be implemented using the current open rock / select ore to pull system by applying the highest ore's level regardless of which you choose to try to pull, then crushing the roid and dropping all the ores as loot. You wouldn't actually 'pull" anything with the prospect attempt).

Edited April 27, 2013 by Manfredjinsinjin

[Terrell [BT]]

All the talk about a well-played JE haveing no problem makes me ask, do you remember there are two other races with miners that don't have cloak.

I'd like to hear from them also. Their perspective is probably different and counts just as much IMO.

 

Nothing wrong with them stating their perspective on mining.  They should participate in these discussions.   I do think that the Scout should get a replacement skill for Hacking, which IMO, is pretty much useless on a Scout.  Matt makes good point about shield devices on the PE.  I talk about the JE, primarily, since I have more experience with that class than the other 2 explorers, though I've played the other 2.  I also think that when the MCP returns and the Archos threader comes as a reward for PE, the Scout should get one for Zets.  Requirements should be similar.

 

JE and Scout should be better at quick escapes than the PE.  Progen racial weakness is engines, the things the PE gets, more shields, better guns, should make up for that.  If they're not, then adjustments should be made.

 

On the different way to mine:

 

I think I prefer the current way that it's done, though the damage from explosions should be toned down.  I don't think that if you have full shields, you should be into hull after an explosion, and definitely not dead.    I could see them taking a big chunk of your shields out, and needing to make an escape.   Can also see the debuffs they currently have.  Mob level, for pop-rock mobs, I think we're in partial agreement on, should be appropriate to the level of the pop rock's level.

 

I do think that your mining devices should work, basically the same way they currently work.   I think that if they don't already do so, they should increase your chances of successfully mining the ores in the pop-rock, other than that, the reduction of time/energy required to prospect should remain the same.   

[rhobix]

.....

I think I prefer the current way that it's done, though the damage from explosions should be toned down.  I don't think that if you have full shields, you should be into hull after an explosion, and definitely not dead.    I could see them taking a big chunk of your shields out, and needing to make an escape.   Can also see the debuffs they currently have.  Mob level, for pop-rock mobs, I think we're in partial agreement on, should be appropriate to the level of the pop rock's level.

 

I agree with this. I don't know if it's just me going after higher level ores, of if the damage has actually gone up, but I get the feeling that I'm taking much more damage from pop rocks than I was a year and a half or so ago in ST4. Now a pop rock of a level equal to my shield takes out almost all of my shield, and sometimes even gets into hull. I think you should be able to take the hit from a pop rock at least two levels above your shield level before it starts digging into your hull.

[Knight05]

I agree pop rock damage is way over powered. Had a level 9 pop last night and it not only took out my 60k shield it did about 20k hull damage.

[Elrick[IS]]

Even though you can visually differentiate a pop-rock from a regular rock? If you choose to take the hit then it may not be fair to call it over powered. :)

I agree pop rock damage is way over powered. Had a level 9 pop last night and it not only took out my 60k shield it did about 20k hull damage.

[Manfredjinsinjin]

Even though you can visually differentiate a pop-rock from a regular rock? If you choose to take the hit then it may not be fair to call it over powered. :)

err. why would you want insta-death any time someone either failed sight recognition, or your code didn't work as advertised for some reason? We are on an emulator so glitches happen.

 

 

Full disclosure, I am in complete opposition to poprocks as implemented and have suggestions out for changes, so please take that into that into consideration. I'm not trying to start arguments, I just think they're horribad as is.