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Perplexed and a bit sad


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Your Post proves the trade yes.

I was asking for explore jobs and combat jobs.

Can anyone post any on those.

Cause trade is not same as others. they all gave different amounts.

 

U cannot compare those other jobs with Trade.

 

But seems we can't post on anything.

So not gonna bother posting as we are whiners anyways.

Enjoy

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Attronach i beg to differ.

 

When we provide a valid reasoning with our concerns/complaints its certain to be considered.

When devs provide a valid reasoning to counteract our concerns shoudn't we do the same?


Yes i can understand the need for adjustment. Can you?

Well my post is about something else.

Point is about whining when DEV post here pure whining post, attacking all (possible) players who try to discust changes in game like whiners, cheaters, booters. Threatening me in game about special nerf only for my character (without smiles).

And about 'magic' sentence "game is free take or leave". In other words - we (players) can only shut-up because we (players) are here only for donations (not my words, this is too from DEV from game).

Do you need read anything else? I don't think so.

 

And about device? This isn't problem because this nerf (adjustment :blink: ) touch ALL in same size. Mission is long and 'hard', but all who have it already done wil sufer in same size.

 

In other side, you can't compare this device with ore guardians and with combat missions (well now I'm whinner :ph34r: ), because players who already have EL50 or CL50, no more need these things. They have 'their' in house. From this will suffer only new players.And this is IMO wrong.

 

And solution?

Take guardians out and take care about unintended macroers (if any about im doubt..)

Let choose players from combat missions - one with XP second with money.

 

Simple solution, no drama need..

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I am kinda going to agree with both sides here, seems at first the nightmare was meant for non warriors classes to get turbo but became an easy way around for warriors to get their PB, why couldnt u make waking nightmare warrior restricted since warriors can get a PB.  20% turbo for a non warrior shouldnt be a super huge jump.

Putting the guardians in glenn to stop the botters was an easy fix but did make the honest players mad and I understand that because you can start mining there in your 80's but now death is likely.

I for one have not agreed with the devs on alot of areas and havent been happy with alot of changes. Ive evan gotten into it with a certain Dev pretty good. But when all is said and done, we are playing a free game worked on by people who dont get paid to work on it and for that we must give them the benefit of the doubt they are trying to get things going in the right direction. Evan though I dont agree with it all, I will say I support the devs and their hard work they do on this, because in the end we have our game back, might not be like live totally but he we have it back. Cut them some slack and think for once, damn guys good job , because they do deserve it, ok ill be the one to say it "Good work staff, we appreciate you"

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Here are my takes on current events:

 

Having just gone through a terrifying 3 months in RL I see the game in a new light/perspective.  As a "Zen miner" (always did like the sound of that) I read the forums when I can...even if I don't get to get into the game as much as I would like.  The guards at the various ore fields only were an annoyance to me before the attempt to curb botting.

 

What I did with my new found perspective was make a public comment, stating what about it was upsetting to me and then PM a Dev with a possible solution or two to fix the problem of botters without killing the fun for all.  

 

As I remember in "EA Live" there was a timer on jobs, you could take a handful, (helped if you had a WHer with you) do those jobs and return...more times than not there would be a wait for you to be able to take any additional jobs.  Jobs were to me never an end all beat all to level my characters in game.  I used them as a top off ex/faction or to pass the time with some friends in game while doing daily RL tasks.

 

The moral of this post is... State your issue in a public forum without trying to piss off the Devs, then PM them your solutions. You notify the public at large of an issue and by PMing the Devs, if your idea for a fix is used it won't be known about before "the fix is in". <- That too makes me chuckle.

 

Oh...one more point...Whining is fun... I try to keep my whining public and in game...also only one per day and labeled as such. 

 

Mimir's Whine of the day: Whining makes me feeeeel goood!

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Mates, if you don't like something, ask to be trained on the relevant tool. Don't like the ore fields? Offer to learn how to use the sector editor. Don't like mob balance, the mob editor. By God you actually might have to not have some fun so you can fix what you deem broken, but then the game will be 'fun' because you made it so, and everyone will either flame you for being an idiot or being the savior. You will not know until you join the dev team, do some work, and listen to the feedback.

 

Whining is easy. Sitting behind a keyboard and saying you're mad is quick and painless. Actually working the change the problem? Oh man, that's the biggest nerf of them all! I know! It's so unfair! I appreciate the fact that you are all unhappy. Please *do* something about it. /continues to fiddle with offline-market web pages {don't hold your breath. I'm learning as I go. I don't even know if the other devs would accept my work. But it's fun to learn anyway. :p}

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Mates, if you don't like something, ask to be trained on the relevant tool. Don't like the ore fields? Offer to learn how to use the sector editor. Don't like mob balance, the mob editor. By God you actually might have to not have some fun so you can fix what you deem broken, but then the game will be 'fun' because you made it so, and everyone will either flame you for being an idiot or being the savior. You will not know until you join the dev team, do some work, and listen to the feedback.

 

Whining is easy. Sitting behind a keyboard and saying you're mad is quick and painless. Actually working the change the problem? Oh man, that's the biggest nerf of them all! I know! It's so unfair! I appreciate the fact that you are all unhappy. Please *do* something about it. /continues to fiddle with offline-market web pages {don't hold your breath. I'm learning as I go. I don't even know if the other devs would accept my work. But it's fun to learn anyway. :P}

Although i appreciate the invitation to join the development side of the game, i have to pass as i am not equiped with any computer knowledge what so ever.

What many are equiped with though is an entertainment meter. They play a game and continue to do so as long as it entertains them. From their lack of technical knowledge, but quite extensive user experience, they voice their love and concerns about the things they encounter from their own perspective.

 

These communications can often be accompanied by strong positive or negative emotions.

It is not adviced to alienate from these communications from a developers perspective but to try and keep your "cool".

 

The pashion some of the developers display ingame and on the forum makes them very accessable.

You can never satisfy everyone and might feel unappreciated by some, but when you take a step back from a situation you might see where it comes from.

 

Perhaps the problem isnt in the changes themselves, but the communication before they take effect ?

 

Of course the average player has no idea what is involved in implementing a suggestion. Though the suggestion itself can bring a new viewpoint on the subject.

Ultimatly it is the development team that decides what happens and when. We can only hope that constructive suggestions are taken into accaunt. Maybe even see through the emotions in some posts and look at the underlying idea.

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I have been the CEO of a $350 million company and an operations and marketing executive prior. My brother is an accomplished game developer whose work you likely know. He founded two game studios, sold one of his companies to EA and is currently the Product Manager for 3D Studio Max. He literally created by many accounts the second most popular mod ever, Desert Combat. He and I have brainstormed over games since the days of our Atari 400. He knows of my passion for EnB, to the point that when he sold his company to EA, I had him ask about EnB. We spoke of the possibility of bringing it back in any way and of the fledgling at the time emu concept. It didn't seem reasonable in 2006~ that it could be done.

 

So, when I say what a staggering achievement I consider this game, I ask that you consider the context of that compliment. Also know that I have not been shy in sharing that opinion in game and out.

 

When this game ended in the early morning hours of September 22, 2004, it left a hole that I did not think could ever be filled. I left my client open, DC icon and all, for a month, just so I could look at my friends, my ship and the Planet Zwei moonrises. I watched Cheezebaal's video hundreds of times and to this day, I choke up when I hear Green Day's Good Riddance.

 

You make a dangerous, and I believe at best partly correct, assumption when you conclude that everyone leaving are the whiners who have nothing to do. The people, at least the ex-Orionites, that I have seen leave for that reason are the exact same ones who left after the March 16, 2004 sunset announcement. Those that stayed post sunset, knowing their pixels were going away and not caring. Those that stayed for the community and created an even better one. Those were many of the first ones here. Those are the ones you need to worry about, because they don't care about the "next shiny thing", they care about the experience.

 

The only "end game" I care about is that there isn't one again.

 

I'm going to share a true story. When Teddy Roosevelt created the National Park Service, they decided that wolves were too dangerous and powerful and a threat to the deer among other species. They set about to balance the scales by hunting down the wolves. As a result the deer population exploded and they began to starve instead.

 

I'm not saying to ignore balance, but understand that you will never achieve it, and that is OK.

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Xpo: if ou have a computer that can run e&b you have a computer that can run the dev tools. As for a lack of knowledge, you can either be taught or teach yourself. Just ask a dev to learn.

What I hear when someone complains and uses these as excuses for not working to fix it when presented the tools and options is someone whose opinion should be taken with a grain of salt. Prove me wrong.

I do agree. The game is only marginally fun at the moment. The big problem for me (from ol 50 to 90 so far) is explore xp. All the level 4-6 mining fields I have found either deplete quickly or have so many guardians that my pp alt/hauler/fighter gets us both more combat xp than I earn us explore xp. He also gets more trade xp than me from he mob loot.

Believe me. My fun-meter says there needs to be some fixing. But until people want to work on fixing it. It will stay broken.

That said. Why is it that combat mobs are allowed to respawn like jack rabbits but mining fields deplete in 5-15 minutes and don't respawn for an hour? No risk? That is what the combat bar is for. Too much reward? Credits and trade xp only take you so far. I don't care about the leveling rate as much as the imbalance of effort for a given leveling rate.

What do I mean? Go earn one clvl, then try to earn one elvl. The elvl takes much more work waiting for reactor. Flying around. Looking for roids. Combat you get a high sig engine, sit in the middle of a spawn, poosh butan, turn ship to fire, collect loot, wash, rinse, repeat. Much less work. The xp and loot, quite literally, comes to you.

This seems...odd to me. How about discussing (sane) ways to fix it? *then* fixing it one time? Sound reasonable?
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Excellent points Kingdud.

 

In live, the only reason anyone I know did explore jobs, was because once the galaxy was explored, there was no other way, short of cl50 and tl50 carryover (I am purposely ignoring grouping with a miner). Combat is everywhere and it gives good trade xp as well in the form of loot. Trade experience comes from loot, or trade runs. "The spice must flow!" Who remembers how hard it was to even get near Jess Edarte in live? The Somerled Bazaar was a zoo.

 

It would be an interesting exercise to know how much explore experience is needed in aggregate to get to EL50, then how much is available to non miners in the form of mapping the galaxy and reasonably found missions in aggregate. The difference I suspect is rather huge and until there is an alternative introduced as you suggest, it is probably not unreasonable that explore jobs be intentionally overpowered in terms of experience compared to the other two, even if it means offering only explore xp, instead of explore and trade as it has to this point.

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I turned off Market and New Players as I don't like chat littered with derogatory terms like Nazi (even if it was a lame joke).  I've not played this morning as I'm not enjoying the grizzling and whittling and whining going on.  I had a coffee and a pastry at my deli, and enjoyed some spring sunshine. 

 

It's a GAME.  I enjoy it. :)

 

I had a slow start to Live.  I had a series of eye ops last year and nearly lost my sight.  I missed live by 5 weeks and I'm still playing catch-up - I'm thankful I can see and thankful I can play EnB.

I'd still like to get my hands on the Waking Nightmare ( help needed with the next 12 commanders pretty please!) - it is a nice bit of kit for everyone.

I still need to level more toons to join my TT and TS - it's a little harder now but it will be done....

 

Chill guys....chill...

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 I posted the comment that brought this response: 

"We have 130 (ish) ore fields in the game, and there was a mob spawn (Manes) added to ONE(!)
of these fields lately (that is 0,76%). There was a whining thread
after the change like the sky was falling...like the end of the world.
Taken WAY to far."

 

I will attempt to moderate my input so as to not offend Zackman any further.  I thought that

A: It inconvenienced "legitimate" miners, more than l150 Botters.

B: When I couldn't mine the gas fields in glenn, I went to other Fields, and found l45+ mobs there that weren't last time I was there (before posting my "whining thread".

C: I attempted to ask if WE (the community), could help craft a solution that did away with botting without inconveniencing non bots.

D: I never said the sky was falling, and i never said I'd quit.

 

  Sevin dragoon

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As all of us know, no one game will satisfy everyone.  That's why there are lots and lot of games.  So, hopefully, everyone can be happy with one game or another.

 

Try looking at this from a different perspective.  If you just started this game today, with no foreknowledge, would you like it?  Would you continue to play?  Don't worry about what was changed, or nerfed, or made harder.  Often, the change is what is upsetting, not the result.

 

In any game, changes happen.  Mistakes creep into the game and must be fixed.  No one like the changes to established items, routines or game play.  Not even the devs.

 

Regardless of what some/one devs say, you can not explore the entire universe daily/weekly looking for changes.  Or kill every MOB 200 times to make sure you know every item it drops.  So any changes that are not content/storyline driven should be reported in patch notes. 

 

I am sure no item or game play changes are made without much discussion and the intent is always to make the game, as a whole, more enjoyable.  No one is trying to drive players away.  But if the game does not suit you, just leave without leaving a suicide note.

Edited by GenghisBob
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Enough with the playing Interstellar Chicken already. That is part of the problem, not the solution. Without Devs and their time and effort, there is no game. No one wants them to leave and I truly believe that most appreciate what they do.

That said, chasing players and daring and encouraging them to leave will kill the game just as dead. Without both, you have nothing, so everyone needs to accept that the players and the Devs NEED each other.

 

There is a point of critical mass where the community (game) can sustain and there is a point where it reaches a death spiral through attrition.

 

Let me ask an honest question of each of you reading this:

 

Does the content of EnB now, or did it in live, come close to the best game you have ever played?

 

Not even close. As an MMO, it is not designed to be a thrill a minute game that has a defined beginning, middle and end. MMOs, any MMO is going to have huge amounts of dead space, time and grind. What makes that palatable, and even enjoyable and rewarding are the people you are playing with, the community.

 

Maybe that is what is missing/needed. Not a player advocate (not knocking the role), but an actual Dev level community manager. Just a thought.

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Not wearing my [TS] hat, but as a player in Live and in the EMU since New-Live:

 

- I can't comment on the End Game contents yet, since none of my toons have the CVE device nor the Walking Nighmare, but Gropos has a point:

What is the insentive for a Warrior to go through the 16 step of a mission in order to get a device that has the same buff as the one he has to give up?  I understand that a non-Warrior class would want to have that device, but there is no point for a Warrior to do that mission.

 

- I do remember that Jobs in Live give EXP as well as CR.  I do remember there was always a crowd at the job terminal, and that getting your 6 jobs at VT terminal (or was it Fenris) take forever because it was crowded.  I remember making my credits as a JE taxing people from/to the weft at VT and Jupiter (The point is for me to be able to earn decent credits doing taxi jobs, there ought to be demand, therefore jobs were popular back in Old-Live).   I do read from one of the guide that you have to make your toon tall in order to easily grab a job.  That contradicts the claim that Jobs were not popular in Live compared to EMU.  I do agree that the EXP from jobs in EMU are excessive, but I have to say that a 50% reduction in EXP is too much for low level toons/newbies to take.   I don't care what happened in Live really, but I do care that it is not fair for the newbies whose toons are not at OL150 now have to climb a steeper hill than those already at End Game status.  Take an example: Agrippa requires TL45 as a condition for entry into Level 2 at lv100.  That could be done earlier easily, but now would take twice as long.  I believe a 33% EXP reduction coupled with a 50% decrease in CR would make more sense as it is easier to swallow.

 

My 2 cents.

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Not knocking your memory or your screenie Stanig:

 

The jobs out of VT (explore) netted a total of approx. 48k xp a run of (5x) (it fluctuated because of the actual 2 items you took gave a tad difference). The Exp quote didn't take into account the tad of trade xp you got. When combined they made that 48k (5x jobs). So that 7500 you remember 5x = 37500, add the trade xp and that sounds about right for 48k.

 

As to the credits awarded, your screenie show L100 jobs and the credits. The jobs out of VT gave enough credits, that with 5x jobs you got 60-70k, leaving you enough to give a WH providing JE 50k tip trip and still make a decent wage per hr. yourself.

 

The jobs however weren't grab n goers, if you were luck enough not to have to compete for the available jobs, optimally this is what occurred:

 

You could take 2 jobs, then a jobs accepted timer played in for 2 minutes, then you could take 2 more jobs, once again the timer kicked in, then you could take the 5th job and you were full, so a full jobs load took 4+ minutes to achieve if you didn't get stuck without a refresh etc. The jobs list refreshed approx. every 5 minutes.

 

Crunch the numbers..add travel time and WH time, docking time and terminal stall a round trip took approx. 10-15 minutes. Since the jobs now are grab n go, I imagine a little toning of the total xp is correct, haven't done a job yet since patch..anyone else? Are you getting 193k total xp an hr from max level jobs? That's about what a decent warrior should be to earn ion a hr if its done right and the loot drops are right. 1 mob at their level every 30-45 sec. for 1k xp, counting recovery time from fight (shields, reactor recovery) that's about 1 a minute =60+k in a hr. add the drops (if loot is right) you should get ~60k in trade= 120k xp. the jobs giving 193k would be optimal (they never refresh right, and there is always some wait) figure it a little down say 180k..there is a 60k discrepancy there.

 

So the terminals "should" give a "little" less xp total, the mobs "should" drop a little better, plentiful loot. And for the risk on the combat there should be  a little risk vs. reward of better pay. Since some of the drops (rare) go for millions there is, just how frequent that is though may be a problem.

 

*side note, the tad extra xp in explore on other jobs was because everyone but explorers had a hard time getting EL, that helped them out, the explorers had time getting trade, so explore jobs gave trade also. Perhaps with all the new sectors to explore and field clear bonus the explore isn't now as hard as before and the side xp provided by jobs can be eliminated and added back to the job taken type and be "pure" xp. Might that not mitigate all the complains a bit?

Edited by Mattsacre
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[quote name="gropos" post="77125" timestamp="1366215955"] Does the content of EnB now, or did it in live, come close to the best game you have ever played?   Not even close. As an MMO, it is not designed to be a thrill a minute game that has a defined beginning, middle and end. MMOs, any MMO is going to have huge amounts of dead space, time and grind. What makes that palatable, and even enjoyable and rewarding are the people you are playing with, the community.   Maybe that is what is missing/needed. Not a player advocate (not knocking the role), but an actual Dev level community manager. Just a thought.[/quote] May I field this one? Do you think that the Net-7 News team might work more closely with the Advocate in this suggested manner? As a Reporter, I do sit there (while I shamelessly plug Call Forwards) and listen to the General, Market, and New Players channels, alongside my Guild's channel. Could the Net-7 News cooperate with the Advocate as needed or wanted? I think so. But to do this suggested task-set, Net-7 News might need field correspondents at overlapping time zones to be effective and hear the goings on of the server. I have posted before that I am in no way territorial about reporting the News. Ryle and I have been the only two Reporters with any extended commitment to bringing you, the pilots, the News, space weather, and other game conditions. If you think you have the journalistic integrity to help the Advocate and ease communications across player-Dev lines, by all means send Shaddex a Private Message and inform him of your interest. Reporting is not a full-time job. It's not a full N7 Entertainment Inc position. You can still enjoy the game and have a galactic say, with journalistic flare. You, a Reporter, get to post reports on the www.net-7.org Headlines, Jenquai, Progen, and Terran news tabs. You can find plenty of gaps between my reports and report hours to do your own show with all your own flavors. I have a ton of fun doing the job, interviewing pilots and [DEV]toons and hearing the cheers, laughter, naysayers, and critics of my newsblurbs and helpful hints on the Portal. Have you the calling of a Reporter if you're sure you don't want to be a Developer? From the recruiter office at NET-7 SOL, this is the Pakkrat.
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Hmm, i understand zack's point about whining on things like the WN going to 12% and the job xp reduced by 1/2. honestly, for me that just gives me incentive to say: ok well i'll figure out another way to get exp and have more fun, besides jobs are boring and a waste of time if you get to 150 and have nothing to do on that toon. But regarding the new things we get every patch tuesday is something i'm aware of and happy to see, for example: i'm sure your eyeballs were scanning the fixed:list to see what you don't like to be added,

 

but for me this is an improvement: Bug in Energy leech not adding aggro/grav link(also), the ralling cry device works properly now(TY), remove the You uncloak message when gating,content: leeroy junkbins has a mission now, also the gene maps exp and credits have increased!, also the gobb servant/troller drone, doesn't respawn on restart(important).

 

Every week there maybe some easy button taken away but most of the time issues like i mentioned are fixed or added which improves the game. IF you lose an easy button deal with it and find another way to enjoy enb like you orginally intended.

Edited by Darkdronen
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sorry but i'm with Zackman here.  while it is possible to disagree.  We don't need the name calling.  As for getting to the end game.  it's not a race.  i was in ST3 and 4 and have been back in new live since last may.  I still don't have a toon higher than 83 simply becasue i'm taking my time and playing all the professions and just enjoying the game.

 

The dev's have done an amazing job when you consider they had to recreate the server code from half forgotten memories and screenshots of how the client worked!

 

The fact that they have then gone on to add new sectors and content take it beyond the pale.

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Kingdud,

 

I merely tried to offer a different perspective :-)

I am not interrested nor inclined to verse myself in computer technology. I stay my own self old fart working in a wharehouse.

I am not interrested in endgame content eihter, nor super duper rare items to trout around as a king. No rush getting to max lvl, eventually i will get there and beyond .. far far beyond.

 

Give me an orefield and i am happy. Regardless if it is made difficult or not.

 

What i do care about is to see a lively community around me with plenty of needs and wants. Requests i could perhaps support one way or the other.

I wasnt talking for myself earlier but tried to see it from other viewpoints.

 

If i have strayed inside the boundries of someone elses personall field of expertise then i appologise.

I appreciate everything that is done to bring this game back and is being done to keep it back online. Once again i have a great time playing an mmo the way i prefer to play it.

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I think Gropos and Pakkrat both have offered the best posts of  the thread.

 

There needs to be a little more understanding on both sides here.  I work in software development - this is not easy stuff and the effort is considerable.  It's hurtful when people seem ungrateful and trash your hard work.

 

That said - if the playerbase (deservedly or not) has the impression that the dev team does not care about their thoughts on the play experience, it makes for a destructive mix.  Comments such as "If you don't like it, leave" are rash and ill-advised, even if the frustration is understandable.   I do not want to see this game die again.

 

My main is a TE, and I have to say, my level of annoyance that I just went through a long (and at times tedious due to respawn wait) mission for a device that now does me absolutely no good is more than trivial. Not that I don't understand the motivation for the change.....


There has to be a positive solution here, and I think, all in all a little more thought about the ramifications and outcomes of such changes are in order on all sides.  Is there some kind of alternate mission reward that could be offered for warriors only - perhaps something that is an upgrade from a CVE (albeit perhaps not 20% turbo)???

Edited by silvrdark
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That said - if the playerbase (deservedly or not) has the impression that the dev team does not care about their thoughts on the play experience, it makes for a destructive mix.  Comments such as "If you don't like it, leave" are rash and ill-advised, even if the frustration is understandable.   I do not want to see this game die again.

Amen!

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There has to be a positive solution here, and I think, all in all a little more thought about the ramifications and outcomes of such changes are in order on all sides.  Is there some kind of alternate mission reward that could be offered for warriors only - perhaps something that is an upgrade from a CVE (albeit perhaps not 20% turbo)???

 

Something like that may be a good idea.  Warriors need firepower more than explorers or traders since they're the ones who are supposed to be doing the heavy hitting in any group/raid situation.  Traders & Explorers, are supporters in such matters, and each should have their own special things to bring to make themselves useful.   Instead of bringing firepower, each Trader class & each Explorer class, should bring unique things to the table that are as valuable as the DPS that the warriors bring, but DPS isn't our thing so much, unless you're a PE or PT. 

 

Give the Warriors something that improves their ability to knock mobs' teeth out, while giving Traders & Explorers things to aid the warriors in accomplishing their tasks when it comes to group work.  A little turbo for non-Warriors isn't a bad thing, but we really only need enough to be able to survive when hunting solo, since we also have to raise CL, but means of escape are equally valuable.   Jenquai are pretty good at making escapes, with the JE being best at that, as are the TT and Scout. 

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Constructive suggestion:

Restore the WN to it's former glory of a +20% (Flagged as Warrior Only)

Introduce a second device 'Jarring Nightmare' at +12% (non restricted)

Mission adjustment: Have the player identify their profession to determine which device is awarded

 

End result:

Players happy - No time or work was wasted

Devs Happy - Balance is maintained

Peace and Harmony reign throughout the galaxy & they all live happily ever after.

 

My 2 cents from the Peanut Gallery.

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I agree with Shadow. We should not get punished because of something that was broken. The best solution is to keep the WN at 20% for all warriors. Take all the WN on non-warriors at 12%...and everything from here on out either make it 12%, or like shadow said, offer 2 items, one for warriors 20%, one for non-warriors 12% - A much much better solution. My stamp of approval.
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