Change how mining happens

[Manfredjinsinjin]

This suggestion is about the mining mechanic itself. Instead of having roids and hulks be containers that stay until emptied, have them destroyed immediately on prospecting and the contents left drifting in space. In other words, the mining beam breaks the roid apart and the prospector can then tractor in the items (or not as they choose).

 

This solves a number of problems (among them cherry-picking) and also offers new possibilities for pop-rock implementation (I think the current one was a bad idea as implemented in Live and bad as replicated here). Using this model, every roid is a potential pop-rock to a miner, and the skill level of the miner reduces the chance and impact of something bad happening. 

 

In this model, a low-level miner can mine a high-level roid if they're willing to take the chance of getting creamed, and a high level miner still has a chance of getting nicked here and there as they mine.

 

And regardless of what a miner takes or doesn't take, the roid is cleared, so the issues from cherrypicking go away.

[SiSL]

That's a joke post I think but I am responding anyway...

 

 

I think you need to understand that "high level" roids are not there for "low-level" taxi alts to mine. They are high-level ores and has much greater value, credits... 

 

1. you need to risk yourself to get this reward 

2. You need to level up to get this reward

 

You do know very well pop-rocks mean nothing since you can leave them there, warp away or just cloak in 3 seconds.

 

I understand that it is good for "alt miners" who don't want to level up just to get your Ammo ores & taxi, but it is not simple as that. 

 

- Also allow near by players pull them before you can (leads to griefing , stealing next to you)

- Alts / etc. Powerleveling

 

etc. etc...

 

Just as it is not different being CL50 / TL 10 / EL 10 (L70) is almost impossible to kill same CL mob just because it has not good shields, reactors or other skills) why should mining be so much easier?

 

There are entire proffesions for that and lots of explorer mains. Why would lowbie taxi alts compete them in high level areas that they deserve?

 

I see lots of Adept who didn't even get L30 upgrade inside Legarto hell, mining today, how more easy can it get? 

 

It is no different than asking 1 shotting any mob around without being high level and loot to be spread around... World is not ready for silver plate handed to you... 

 

 

Sorry, bad bad idea...  

Edited April 14, 2013 by SiSL

[Mattsacre]

Now see here is a fine example of a solution lacking a problem....

 

This suggestion is about the mining mechanic itself. Instead of having roids and hulks be containers that stay until emptied, have them destroyed immediately on prospecting and the contents left drifting in space. In other words, the mining beam breaks the roid apart and the prospector can then tractor in the items (or not as they choose).

 

This solves a number of problems (among them cherry-picking) and also offers new possibilities for pop-rock implementation (I think the current one was a bad idea as implemented in Live and bad as replicated here). Using this model, every roid is a potential pop-rock to a miner, and the skill level of the miner reduces the chance and impact of something bad happening. 

 

In this model, a low-level miner can mine a high-level roid if they're willing to take the chance of getting creamed, and a high level miner still has a chance of getting nicked here and there as they mine.

 

And regardless of what a miner takes or doesn't take, the roid is cleared, so the issues from cherrypicking go away

 

As SiSL says this opens up a whole slew of griefing possibilities (I think that can be worked around if the remains of the roid was treated as a corpse and then no others not grouped could ninja loot)

But then it opens up a whole huge arena full of exploitation, namely, a high lvl toon mines clear a area and other grouped come pluck it up....being able to mine that is a reward for the work of leveling up, why should L0-120 toons be able to pluck up what a L135 toon does, they didn't do the time and effort...

 

It's been beaten to death, the horses corpse is not only dead, there are maggots crawling in and out of the rotted flesh, bury the freakn remains and stop flaying it....cherry picking is a game dynamic and is working as intended, you don't like it (heck, I wish I beat someone to the sweet loot myself) you don't have to like it, just live with it, it's something that is, and always will be WIA.

 

The only thing I take from this good is, if the roid breaks off "chunklettes", that you mine item X out and then it's lootable only by you and can be in the process of being tractored (or not) when you start breaking off another chunklette of items in the roid. That your mining beam isn't interrupted by tractor pull OR by mob dmg either. Once you finish breaking off that chunklette you can turn to killing the mob and either come back to loot your chunk or tractor it while you fight. This would eliminate the warp/drop loot dynamic of exploiting roid as well (many wouldn't like that I'm sure).

 

I don't quite get how it opens other options for pop rocks.. currently you poke a popmob/rock with a mining laser and they respond. Per your solution how does that differ? You poke them or enitiate some action on them and they still have to respond in some fashion.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Mattsacre

[Manfredjinsinjin]

That's a joke post I think but I am responding anyway...

 

 

I think you need to understand that "high level" roids are not there for "low-level" taxi alts to mine. They are high-level ores and has much greater value, credits... 

 

1. you need to risk yourself to get this reward 

2. You need to level up to get this reward

 

You do know very well pop-rocks mean nothing since you can leave them there, warp away or just cloak in 3 seconds.

 

I understand that it is good for "alt miners" who don't want to level up just to get your Ammo ores & taxi, but it is not simple as that. 

 

- Also allow near by players pull them before you can (leads to griefing , stealing next to you)

- Alts / etc. Powerleveling

 

etc. etc...

 

Just as it is not different being CL50 / TL 10 / EL 10 (L70) is almost impossible to kill same CL mob just because it has not good shields, reactors or other skills) why should mining be so much easier?

 

There are entire proffesions for that and lots of explorer mains. Why would lowbie taxi alts compete them in high level areas that they deserve?

 

I see lots of Adept who didn't even get L30 upgrade inside Legarto hell, mining today, how more easy can it get? 

 

It is no different than asking 1 shotting any mob around without being high level and loot to be spread around... World is not ready for silver plate handed to you... 

 

 

Sorry, bad bad idea...  

 

Number one, your forum troll attitude is not appreciated. I propose a change to make mining less of a cakewalk and you accuse me of wanting free stuff on a silver platter? Lame.

 

Number two, mining as implemented is broken anyways. That's why people keep trying to "fix" it with poprocks, guardian mobs, etc. I have Prospect L4 and a L7 mining device and can easily pull L8 stuff, or L9 if I choose to work at it a bit. So regardless of what is "intended" for low level miners like myself, that's not what's happening. 

 

However, this post is in no way an attempt to fix it all, it's just a single mechanics change -that I personally find an interesting proposition - to open up the possibility of more changes for the better. If you can't discuss it civilly, I have no interest in responding further to you.

[Curis[IS]]

Joke or not, OP apparently likes A Fish Called Wanda, so he can't be all bad.

 

(It's an XK-Red 27 technique.)

[Boneshock]

Thats the problem with Devs / Gm's and the majority of this game some one post a suggestion and people attack him.  Bad buisness and you guys wonder why people are so aggresive here and leaving the game.

[chaw]

nice

[Thadg59]

This suggestion is about the mining mechanic itself. Instead of having roids and hulks be containers that stay until emptied, have them destroyed immediately on prospecting and the contents left drifting in space. In other words, the mining beam breaks the roid apart and the prospector can then tractor in the items (or not as they choose).

 

This solves a number of problems (among them cherry-picking) and also offers new possibilities for pop-rock implementation (I think the current one was a bad idea as implemented in Live and bad as replicated here). Using this model, every roid is a potential pop-rock to a miner, and the skill level of the miner reduces the chance and impact of something bad happening. 

 

In this model, a low-level miner can mine a high-level roid if they're willing to take the chance of getting creamed, and a high level miner still has a chance of getting nicked here and there as they mine.

 

And regardless of what a miner takes or doesn't take, the roid is cleared, so the issues from cherrypicking go away.

 

Edited August 23, 2013 by Thadg59

[Thadg59]

I spent a little over an hour looking for iron for a low level quest cause someone cherry picked the roids of all iron. I ended up mining those roids just so they would re-spawn with iron. The roid popping idea would work, but only if the roid loot is treated just like mob loot with the exception that only the player popping the roid can loot it, even if in a group. Nothing else about prospecting needs to be changed.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Thadg59

[Krellis]

I don't like the roid dumping the items into space.  I think that's just asking for trouble.  I go to pull a lvl9 device from a hulk and someone swoops in and grabs it from space.  Or space gets filled with 500 floating groups of debris.  I'd be OK with an all or nothing system that pulls the entire contents of a roid to your hull.  So if you don't have space for everything you don't get it.  This would probably cause energy problems for lower level problems though.

 

I'd also be in favor of a timer that starts after you close a roid.  The time's debatable, but lets say a minute.  Every time someone reopens the roid the timer resets, but if that minute passes it despawns so that it can respawn quicker.  This should help will all the hulks filled with debris.

[Arthurdent [CDEV]]

Thats the problem with Devs / Gm's and the majority of this game some one post a suggestion and people attack him.  Bad buisness and you guys wonder why people are so aggresive here and leaving the game.

 

Trolling for a staff response maybe ? Aside from a remark regarding the OPs nick origin, I don't see anything posted by us.

 

Hope you enjoyed the free shot.

 

 

This suggestion is about the mining mechanic itself. Instead of having roids and hulks be containers that stay until emptied, have them destroyed immediately on prospecting and the contents left drifting in space. In other words, the mining beam breaks the roid apart and the prospector can then tractor in the items (or not as they choose).

 

This solves a number of problems (among them cherry-picking) and also offers new possibilities for pop-rock implementation (I think the current one was a bad idea as implemented in Live and bad as replicated here). Using this model, every roid is a potential pop-rock to a miner, and the skill level of the miner reduces the chance and impact of something bad happening. 

 

In this model, a low-level miner can mine a high-level roid if they're willing to take the chance of getting creamed, and a high level miner still has a chance of getting nicked here and there as they mine.

 

And regardless of what a miner takes or doesn't take, the roid is cleared, so the issues from cherrypicking go away.

 

I can give you a very simple reason why this probably won't happen :

 

The possible creation of the number of entities with multiple ores per container (rock) and left behind by a player.

The logistics of this would be : Player mines a rock, rock explodes, spawns 2-3 items, 1 tractored, 2 left, and the server has to calculate 2 despawn timers for new items or deal with them as persistent entities until picked up / cleared. Multiply that by a field of say 15 rocks, and then 3-4 fields a sector. Instead of 45-60 containers, you now have close to 100 items on spawn timers (or persistent) and the possibility of a field respawn to create more.

 

[Mimir[IS]]

Number one, your forum troll attitude is not appreciated. I propose a change to make mining less of a cakewalk and you accuse me of wanting free stuff on a silver platter? Lame.

 

Number two, mining as implemented is broken anyways. That's why people keep trying to "fix" it with poprocks, guardian mobs, etc. I have Prospect L4 and a L7 mining device and can easily pull L8 stuff, or L9 if I choose to work at it a bit. So regardless of what is "intended" for low level miners like myself, that's not what's happening. 

 

However, this post is in no way an attempt to fix it all, it's just a single mechanics change -that I personally find an interesting proposition - to open up the possibility of more changes for the better. If you can't discuss it civilly, I have no interest in responding further to you.

 

 

Thats the problem with Devs / Gm's and the majority of this game some one post a suggestion and people attack him.  Bad buisness and you guys wonder why people are so aggresive here and leaving the game.

 

I'm sorry but I didn't see any of the answers as an attack on you.  

 

Mostly pointing out why your idea was a (pick one) Bad Idea, Would not work, Is not worth changing (with so many other things to fix/add).  

 

Just a thought, if others don't agree with you or think your ideas are the best thing since buttered bread, it is NOT an attack. Not every idea is a good one.

 

Also....A low level miner SHOULD NOT be able to pull high level ores. Seems to me this should be reworked a bit to NOT allow miners to pull anything x levels above their level.  (As it was in Original Live as I remember reactor drained to nothing if attempted)

[Terrell [BT]]

There wasn't a "prospect level lock" per se in the original game.  What could stop you from mining an ore entirely, was if the amount of energy required to prospect the ore in question, was greater than the amount of power in your reactor.  This would be more obvious in cases where a person has a low level reactor, prospect skill, and device tech (assuming they have a mining device), relative to the level of the rock.   It was possible under those circumstances, that the amount of energy required to extract one unit of resource from the resource node was greater than the maximum capacity of your reactor.  Increasing the level of prospect skill, decreased the amount of energy and time required to extract any given resource.

 

What prospect did lock, by level, is what you could refine.  In that respect it works the same as a build skill.

[Mimir[IS]]

There wasn't a "prospect level lock" per se in the original game.  What could stop you from mining an ore entirely, was if the amount of energy required to prospect the ore in question, was greater than the amount of power in your reactor.  This would be more obvious in cases where a person has a low level reactor, prospect skill, and device tech (assuming they have a mining device), relative to the level of the rock.   It was possible under those circumstances, that the amount of energy required to extract one unit of resource from the resource node was greater than the maximum capacity of your reactor.  Increasing the level of prospect skill, decreased the amount of energy and time required to extract any given resource.

 

What prospect did lock, by level, is what you could refine.  In that respect it works the same as a build skill.

That was it... thanks :)

 

Note: Corrections/Disagreements was not taken as an attack or shot.

[Agfot[IS]]

This suggestion is about the mining mechanic itself. Instead of having roids and hulks be containers that stay until emptied, have them destroyed immediately on prospecting and the contents left drifting in space. In other words, the mining beam breaks the roid apart and the prospector can then tractor in the items (or not as they choose).

 

This solves a number of problems (among them cherry-picking) and also offers new possibilities for pop-rock implementation (I think the current one was a bad idea as implemented in Live and bad as replicated here). Using this model, every roid is a potential pop-rock to a miner, and the skill level of the miner reduces the chance and impact of something bad happening. 

 

In this model, a low-level miner can mine a high-level roid if they're willing to take the chance of getting creamed, and a high level miner still has a chance of getting nicked here and there as they mine.

 

And regardless of what a miner takes or doesn't take, the roid is cleared, so the issues from cherrypicking go away.

I'm not sure i understand the complete idea behind this. All the consequences you mentioned can also be achieved without having the roid split up immediately:

• Cherry picking: We can -- and i'm not sure if we are -- de-spawn the roid once it has been opened and stuff removed from it after a certain time, so the trash despawns after a while and is replaced
• We can turn every roid into a potential poprock. Actually they are, but if you are asking us to also remove the visual cues, well people might get angry a bit and rightfully so

There are however a bunch of issues/questions related to this:

• Like Arthur already mentioned, the proliferation of objects in space -- especially movable ones -- is not a good thing and would increase our network and server load significantly. Also the client is not very efficient with many objects it would seem. There are unfortunately a bunch of algorithms whose complexity is increasing with the second power of the number of visible objects --> bad
• How do we assign XP in this model. Does the guy destroying the asteroid get it --> people will just pop the roids and leave everything floating for XP --> see problem 1. Do we give it to the guy picking up the ore --> power leveling
• This is less of a problem, because it already is a slight issue now, but it would be made worse by this: If there is a nice device in the roid, it is now floating in space and whoever put it there spent time and energy to remove it. Anyone can swoop in and pick it up though, putting the original miner at a disadvantage. 

Imho this would cause more harm than good, but like i said, maybe i'm missing something.

 

Regarding mission items: I guess technically we could put mission items into roids that are only visible and collectible by the guy on the mission, similar to how WOW and other games are doing it. Problem is that this would mean a significant re-write of the inventory subsystem. I'm also not sure i this is really wanted. Quite often i read that people here enjoy the aspect that not everything is handed to them for free. Maybe we could code in a hardcore mode with permadeath and everything that players can chose :)

 

Btw, typing out a post like this takes me between 30 and 45 mins. I'm doing it now, because i'm on vacation and need some distraction from coding. In general this would be shortened to "won't work" or no answer at all, because that time is better spent working on the code. Also it unfortunately sounds quite rude sometimes, because of the brevity, but is not meant that way. We really do think about your suggestions and take them into consideration. It's just that very often they are either unfeasible like this, or are asking for things that are throwing off the balance of the game (whatever that means) with the hint that it could be made very very rare sometimes.

 

Hope that explains a few things.

[Yuritau]

• Cherry picking: We can -- and i'm not sure if we are -- de-spawn the roid once it has been opened and stuff removed from it after a certain time, so the trash despawns after a while and is replaced

 

I don't think there's any roid despawn timer in place. Or, at the very least, not universally applied.