Accuracy and Handling should increase damage. For PW.

[Willbonney]

I have posted this before in another thread, but I believe with recent conversations with folks, I would like to get a conversation involved anew.

 

First off, at the start of EnB, neither Improved Handling nor Increased Accuracy had the side affect of increasing damage.  Howver, on 10/28/2003, they did patch this in as can be seen:  http://www.earthandbeyond.ca/server/patchviewer.jsp-id=1167.html

 

• Items with Improved Missile Accuracy, Improved
  Projectile Accuracy, Improved Beam Accuracy, Improved Missile Handling, Improved
  Projectile Handling or Improved Beam Handling have been upgraded to include an
  increased damage effect.

 

At this point in time, I had a few maxed out Terrans, a couple Jennies, and one Progen Warrior.  Now, after this change, I did notice increased dps on all characters.  But mostly, I noticed a large damage increase on my PW.  The reason for this I believe is due to the nature of a PW's damage.  They fire fast with Projectiles.  Faster than any other class (minus a beam user using very fast rate of fire beams).  With this in mind, they saw those damage increases more often than the other classes.  Every couple of seconds they would fire, and their hits would see damage increases due to the increased accuracy or handling.  This was great for the PW, more so for it, and brought a lot of it's damage in line with the other classes.

 

The other advantage to this was the fact, that if you were using Level 4 weapons, and while out in the field, you had gained enough level, and spent points into weapon handling, you would see an increased amount of damage being done by your lower level weapons.

 

This was good for all classes, especially since many level 8 weapons were good to use even if you could use level 9s, for the buffs provided, but you would still see an increase in damage.

 

 

I feel, that changing this to bring things in line as they decided to do in WW live, will yes increase all damage of every player, but the Progens would see the benefit the most.

[Zackman [LDEV]]

Repeating same answer:

The "raised damage" is already included because the way it's implemented here makes it hit more often with crits (double damage) and generally not missing that much - which is an increased damage.

Besides from that you will not see a "damage raise" like an a turbo-buff or "real raise-damage buff" - even not if reposting the third time  :lol:

 

To answer your next posting already:

-->Statement: 

"But my toon has max crit already, so raised accuracy is worthless for me"

 

-->Answer:

When you have max crit, you are most likely a maxed toon, fighting mob that is always higher in (combat) level than you. And it THIS point, the raised accuracy will help again, since the level diff. is a factor in the math  ;)

[Willbonney]

Not talking about crit here at all, but purely based off of damage numbers, and the effect of increasing damage per shot through the classes.  I understand that by reducing the amount of misses, you are in effect increasing damage, yes.

 

However, it is the effect of what that damage increase per level of handling and accuracy did for the different classes.

 

You received more benefit in your DPS for having more weapons.

 

For instance, let's look at 2 similar weapons from 2 different classes, the TE's Zets, and the PW's Archo's, both using playermade plasma ammo, 200% rate of fire stats.

 

Archos:  223.6 damage every 1.39 seconds for a DPS of 161.33

Zets:  1339 damage every 7.5 seconds for a DPS of 178.6

 

Now, due to the classes, this isn't necessarily bad, as a Progen Warrior gets one more weapon slot than their Terran counterpart (weapons x 6 instead of weapons x 5).  But the interesting thing you see is what occurs to the weapons when you add flat out damage increases, similar to the effect of an Intolerance.  So let's calculate a 40% damage increase, and say that is what you got by raising your weapons 8 Levels (you start with level 1, raise your main weapon class to 9).  I do not recall if this was the actual number from Live.

 

Archos adjusted 40% increase:  313.04 every 1.39 seconds for DPS of 225.21

Zets:  1874.6 every 7.5 seconds for a DPS of 249.95

 

As you can see, the more flat top end damage increases you do, adds more to the DPS for a slower firing weapon, than it does to the fast firing weapon for the same level, as you go from a difference of 15, now to about 25.  But now use the multiplier of x 6, as class difference.

 

6 Archos non adjusted is a 967.98 damage per second.  Adjusted 40% is 1351.26

5 Zets non adjusted is 893 damage per second.  Adjusted 40% is 1249.75.

 

You go from a difference of 75 DPS to a difference of 101.51 DPS due to the plain fact, Progens get more weapon slots than a Terran.  The increase in damage numbers effects them more for the plain fact, they have more weapons to be effected by that change.  The more you increase that top end damage calculation, the more you see the Progen out damaging the Terran, as it should be.  It is not a huge difference, but it is enough to give them an edge.

 

This is what gives the Progen Warrior it's damage edge over the Terran.  The changes made to how Turbo Weapons makes those changes equal to the most part, and so the DPS increases due to 40 or 60% Turbo is the same for all warriors.  However, having that 6th weapon slot, gives them a huge advantage when it comes to Top End damage increases, and is the reason why it was changed in the WWLive version of EnB, because comparitively, Progen damage was weaker than that of Terrans and Jenquai.  When it comes to Jenquai, that's fine, the nature of the class.  Sacrifice damage for tank.  But comparing the Terran and the Progen, the Progen should do more damage.  This was one of the ways it was accomplished.  Sure, that meant strengthening all classes.  In my opinion though, that is a better way of going about things for balancing.  Not nerfing, but strengthening all in the same way, with the net result being strengthening one class more than others by that change.

 

Edited to Add:  At this time, I do not have a maxed out Progen.  I have two Terrans.  A TE and a TT.  However, I see and hear the issues the players who are primarily playing Progen are currently having in game.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Willbonney

[Willbonney]

Repeating same answer:

The "raised damage" is already included because the way it's implemented here makes it hit more often with crits (double damage) and generally not missing that much - which is an increased damage.

Besides from that you will not see a "damage raise" like an a turbo-buff or "real raise-damage buff" - even not if reposting the third time  :lol:

 

To answer your next posting already:

-->Statement: 

"But my toon has max crit already, so raised accuracy is worthless for me"

 

-->Answer:

When you have max crit, you are most likely a maxed toon, fighting mob that is always higher in (combat) level than you. And it THIS point, the raised accuracy will help again, since the level diff. is a factor in the math  ;)

That's sort of my point here Zackman.  By ignoring a change that they decided to go with in Live for balancing, you are in effect ignoring what those changes did for balance.  Now, I'm not saying the Live version of EnB was balanced throughout the classes, however they did try their best.  By not having these damage increases, it changes the scope of the weapons that were added to the game after the change was made.  The equipment added to the game after this change on 10/28/2003 kept in mind the damage increase due to Weapons Handling, and so they balanced the weapons accordingly with that in mind.  By not having it, the "balance" of things are becoming skewed.

 

And again, it seems very clear at least to me that "...Handling have been upgraded to include an
increased damage effect."  means an outright increase in top end damage, not an increase in damage due to missing less. 

[Giest310]

YES ,  i was under the impression that this skill was working like EA live but it is not.

 

 

I also feel that the PWs are gitting gimpped while the JDs are getting pimped , I see  Lasers with longer ranges than Progectile at the same level ....

 

 

[Terrell [BT]]

YES ,  i was under the impression that this skill was working like EA live but it is not.

 

 

I also feel that the PWs are gitting gimpped while the JDs are getting pimped , I see  Lasers with longer ranges than Progectile at the same level ....

 

Beams only do full damage if used at less than 50% of their range.  Above 50% range, beam damage drops off, and at maximum range beams only do 50% damage.

[Mattsacre]

I think Geist understood that when he posted Terrel, we know about the dmg drop off for range thing, but if you crunch the numbers you will find, that even under the 50% range/100% dmg window, with the modifying items like range boosts from devices etc. (that Jenquia have access to, that progen don't) that they are still outstripping many PL ranges and staying in the 100% dmg window, this while having the added advantage of a instant dmg count and not delayed like projectiles/missles, beams don't have "wasted" shots, they are either hit or miss, missles/projectiles have a hit/miss ratio and a wasted ammo ratio piled on top.

 

Zack is saying that accuracy is already factored into the actual dps delivery, since you can't actually see details showing that difference, many are skeptical.  In live there was a text base thing that showed a miss like " archos round jams barrel and misfires" or "wrong round loaded into reaver, reload required". If accuracy was actually calculated in a separate ratio other than a flat line dmg increase it would benefit toons with more weapons obviously, for good or ill, the dmg output with weapon evolution would cause more weapons to have a ever divergent increase in dps when compaired to lesser slots, (personally I think that's to good, that's what diffentiates the choice of a toon with more slots of one type or other, if a PW has to stand and tank he should get a reward for that, if another gets to stand off or cloak to dish it out, they should have a give in another area)

 

I'm seeing Will's and Zack's points and am straddling the fence I guess, if the accuracy was a separate ratio that was accessable, people could see the actual benefit of equipping for it in a transparent fashion. If it was a separate ratio that happened to buff more weaps, more benefit...duh..isn't that what's support to happen?

 

I can give a for instance, a sting L3 gives a 3% accuracy buff, when my PW as at that level to equip it, his PL were at 14 dmg per round, with that 3% buff what was the gain for using that device? Nothing. With that buff added the PW didn't gain 1 iota of damage boost, on my hit/miss look he didn't hit 1 more time in a 1 minute time frame of combat. If he was getting a flat 3% dmg. boost what would he show, if the buff had been 5% (a L4 sting has that) and did 20 dmg per shot he would have seen a net flat dmg gain of 1 dmg. Less than 20 dmg and 5% he gets squat for laoding a sting buff.

So if the accuracy ratio was used instead of flat dps...he should hit 3 more hits out of a 100 (average), but on checking he hit not one more nor one less out of 100 shots. So what was the gain for a accuracy buff? So for a non-maxed to to fit for "accuracy" what would be the reward? If it does work on the high end...whats the actual gain in real terms. If there isn't a discernible gain why bother, fir for something else...maybe resists, or speed etc.

[Willbonney]

There was still accuracy in WWLive, it existed.  The problem is that there was BOTH accuracy and a damage increase due to accuracy and handling skills.  Now we only have accuracy on it's own.  And it is skewing the damage of the higher end raiding weapons, all of them, most noticeably on the PW, and I don't even play PW yet.