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Saurron

Building 1000's of low level weapons to increase quality

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No Vince....without going into detail, a L2 build is not affecting the overall build quality in the same way like a "same level build".

 

The currently commented code in the server is almost a system like Knix suggested, tho its not "static", it's more dynamic with the diff. build levels because building 100 items at L1 is not the same like building 100 items at L4 (build costs, components etc).

 

What Zackman saying is:

 

 

1. Code makes it so that you can build 50 L9 items which would equal to crafting 1000 L1 items.. or similiar (numbers are made up) without changing current situation...

 

It will not fix whine of original poster about other players but gives casual builders faster progression without carpal tunnel or mouse spring breaking... 

 

2. However, other comments is, most 200% builders can now drop to 135% qualities at L9, because code may also setup "TRAP" to build 4000 L9 items to get 200% ;)

 

Which would fix whine of original poster about other players but gives even hardcore players carpal tunnel and casual builders may not even get close to 200% in their whole life till EMU shuts down. 

 

Which is why Zackman's second "Subjective" comment may be really trap...

Edited by SiSL

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Nah...

 

i wasnt saying this at all, you were assuming it....

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Which would fix whine of original poster about other players

He had NO whine, he only wanted to moniter his progress in quality gains,

 

try re-reading it <_<  :P

Edited by Gonzo

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Nah...

 

i wasnt saying this at all, you were assuming it....

 

I know, I assume too much to get people ready for any outcome :)

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@  Saurron -  If you want an answer to your question, read your private messages <_<  :lol:

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I have some code in the server since 2 weeks addressing this - it's just not active yet (commented out)....yet.

 

If you guys are saying that the so called "foreign build levels" should affect the builds 3+levels higher only in a capped and limited way, i just need to remove 4 characters in the code and it's life....

Up to you.

I would vote for such a change if the contribution of builds of the appropriate level were raised correspondingly, so the total contribution to build quality from all levels remain the same.

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Zackman, please don't change the code because two or three people 'voted' for it.  That may be very far from representative of the whole community.  I would not want the game changed on my vote alone. 

 

A much wider discussion should be required, at least among the developers if not the entire building community.

 

Including, would it change any current build quality that a player may have?  Would it make it harder for up and coming builders than the older builders. 

 

Once we hit 'live' changes should not be arbitrary but actually need a 'reason' to be changed.

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Don't worry, bigger changes are never going live unless the Project Lead has decided so.

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Unless a more reasonable method (as in time / energy / credits spent) comes up, I think leaving the system where if someone wants to build 2K L1 beams to raise their weap build is fine..  I'd rather have it where each time I built anything, it made some difference.  I think if I craft a L5 PL, it should significantly affect my chance to build a L2 (ok, significant in terms of this games mechanics could be 1%, maybe 1.5-2% at most).  But something we have all butted our heads aginst since live is "How the &%%^* do I get better builds?" . Rather than call this an "exploit", I hear angels singing at the prospect of being able to spend 5-6 hours of time, and tens of milions of creds, just KNOWING that it will make some difference. Also, I get a regular message to "Not use exploits" in game, if you decide this is an exploit, please let us know before we get caught doing something that is public knowledge, and started with a dev comment that # of builds was in fact, a means to increase build %.

 

  'nuff said

 

 Sevin dragoon

 

(btw, you guys are doing a fantastic job, and we know it.. We just want More fantastic from you)

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I agree some method of making builds higher quality needs to exist in the game. In Live it was the zen-rai matrix (or am I being an old fart? It was the device that increased build skill and required a LOT of farming in order to summon the boss that dropped it).

People complained that casuals couldn't do that because it took a group or too much farming. I find the current system very generous. If you can't be bothered to farm stuff a few levels below you to sell the loot and make money (at lvl 50 my pp has 1.3 mill just from fighting cl10s (2-5 class below him) and to try and lock trade and combat together. 10 mill won't be hard considering loot sells for even more above tech 3.

But yes, dedicated builders should be able to get 200% builds very consistently. At the very worst 195-200%. Hard things to make are hard and maybe a solder wasn't absolutely perfect so it's 199 instead of 200%, even for a master builder, but they aren't going to we'll and shit out a 150 where the barrel is misaligned with the rest of the gun.

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Its all about the 200% expected quality coming out at 197%.  That stuff makes me go play other games. Trade skills should be time sinks but atm its really not worth it if yer not in a guild and have a lot of people feeding your credits and recipes.  The idea was to reward builders, that spent the time, to have better build skills than players that do not.  While this may have succeeded I am not sure the current system has really made the game better, more fun, or more rewarding.

 

It still seems more like casual building is dead and the market channel is a ghost town....but I don't login much anymore ;)

Edited by Crichton

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I see a couple problems here.  In live, I'm not sure how it worked.  I know by the time I was able to print and build the devastating gaze, that I didn't have a huge problem getting 190 to 200% on most builds of my skills current level.  And I wasn't a person that built 1000's of weapons.  But, I did have pretty much every none Jenquie restricted weapon printed outside of a few really rare drops. 

 

One issue I see with the build system is, that in Live, you had a chance of building a weapon of your current skill level at 200%, even if your skill was level 3 or 4 and you were trying to build a level 3 or 4 weapon.  Here, I still can't get 200% on items 1 level below my build skill, and that's using 200% player made parts, doing that I can at least manage the 190s.  In live, using player made parts, was almost a guaranteed 200%.  And that was at pretty much any station that I had decent faction with.  Considering that all but 1 of the Devastating Gazes I built came out at 200%, without and override, that says a lot. 

 

Now, the building 2-3k items to improve builds part of this argument.  I can see it both ways, yes in reality, practice makes perfect.  But, building low level items shouldn't effect items on the top end.  The truth is, it should be a tad easier or more random to get 200% on your top level items.  If you want to have a practice mechanic, it should be more like 10-100 builds of items at that given level, to top out your build experience for that level of item, to give you a constant expected range of 197-200.. 

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I like the way this server works out Build Quality chances, I'll be honest right off the bat but if people feel the need to have it changed this is what I would do if anyone really cares to hear my two credits worth on this subject. You could go with what the poster above me said and also restrict the improvements to be within that Build category as well. Building level 2 Weapons should effect only weapons, not engines. I mean sure, some of the methods of construction between these two would be akin to one another.

But lets face it, if this is all such a huge deal to "fix" then that would be the route I'd go. Sure it would mean building a lot more stuff at higher level, but it would be rewarding when you can finally make that 200% L9 Beam/PL/ML

 

I do remember on Live getting the 196 - 200% builds of gear at the same Build Level you're actually on was much easier, and it did seem to play a bit off your Trade level some but as I said at the start of my post, I have no issues with the way things are right now.

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The thing that seems most bizarre to me, and as Rezwalker mentioned earlier in this thread, is that the Build Quality range and Estimated Quality change each time you hit the build terminal--in fact, each time you click the item in the same session at the build terminal.

 

I am currently Device Build level five.  Just because I had one on hand, I dismantled a Shelter Quattuor, then dismantled the Shelter Tria and rebuilt it to 182%.

 

I am sitting at the build terminal right now ready to turn the 182% Shelter Tria (with a 100% version of the component) back into a Shelter Quattuor.

 

Just by clicking the item in the list over and over without actually building it, I get multiple estimated quality ranges:

 

Range: 152% to 162% - Est: 157%

Range: 155% to 165% - Est: 160%

Range: 154% to 164% - Est: 160%

Range: 152% to 161% - Est: 157%

Range: 154% to 163% - Est: 159%

 

And so on. I managed to get the expected quality as low as 156% and as high as 160% by doing this.  Obviously, it's rerunning the algorithm with each click of the item, but the variation is just strange. I'm at the exact same trade level and the same build skill level at same terminal in the same station with the same items in my hold.  Why should the quality range change?

 

Just curious.

 

(For the record, I built the item while the range sat at 154% to 164% and the estimated quality at 160%.  It came out at 161%.)

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Theres a randomizer to it.  There is always a small chance of +/- expected.  Hence why you got 161.  You see the variation each time you click right?  Randomizer in the mix.

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Theres a randomizer to it.  There is always a small chance of +/- expected.  Hence why you got 161.  You see the variation each time you click right?  Randomizer in the mix.

I understand the bit of randomization on the final output and have no problem at all with that.  I just don't understand it on the range and expected quality in a scenario like that one I described, when every variable has been controlled--the station/faction, the Trade level, the Build level, the ingredients and their quality, etc.

 

Don't misunderstand... I'm not complaining about it--at least I'm not intending to sound that way. It just strikes me as odd, and I was curious about it.

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It sounds like there is a random component to the expected quality and another random component to the actual quality when item is built.

 

Doing a random of a random causes the result to be a number much more likely to be in the center of the range and less likely to be at the extremes, rather than an even distribution.  (A bell shape curve rather then a straight line)

 

Players keep coming up with ways to "improve" the build success rate algorithm.  I just would hate to see it changed and then all the complaints from early builders or current would-be builders that the others had it easier than they did.

 

Once we hit live, things like this should not change unless there is a VERY good reason for it.  Not just because this 'new' way seems 'better' to a couple of players than that 'old' way.

Edited by GenghisBob

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The problem I see with the randomizer is the thing that made my customers displeased at me.

 

- Max build reactor skilled JE (me).

- Showing 200% and 200% for a level 5 reactor, have 10K rep with Glenn at OMP (station is green)

- Built at 197% and a somewhat upset customer (and a very embarrassed builder).

 

Same thing happened to the TT on a lv 5 shield, also at OMP with high Glenn faction.

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OMP is owned by InfinitiCorp, so one might want to check one's IC faction.  However, I largely agree with you on that issue.  A character with a maxed build & TL, should be able to consistently get 200% quality on a L5 item.

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Here's what I see.  The original system from EA Live, made the playing field even, regardless of how long you'd been in the game, other than faction influences.  It was designed that way, so if a person wanted to pick up and start building, say devices, they could.  If they kept their trade skill up enough to build devices of their current use level, they had a good chance of being able ot supply themselves.  I know this for a fact, because in EA live, I supplied most of my own weapons, including my level 9s.  I'm the dude, that right before the game went live out of beta at original launch, was supplying a lot of Jenpie with 200% Glimmer beams on Pegasus server, this was during the early retail access part.  And I most definitely only had level 2 or 3 build at the time, building those level 2 beams. It may of taken 2 or 3 build tries every once in a while, but it still worked.

 

All the system that's in place now does.  Is benefit those that have been around longest, or who want to spend the creds to game the system.  You changed a system, that didn't need changing.  Even in reality, companies that build hundreds of thousands, or millions of cars, etc a year, still put out a run of stinkers that need to be recalled from time to time.  But, that build line doesn't wait to be improved, till the next year model, it's improved as soon as the defect if found. 

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Quote: "Even in reality, companies that build hundreds of thousands, or millions of cars, etc a year, still put out a run of stinkers that need to be recalled from time to time." 

 

 Thats true... But, A better product is more likely to be produced by the individual worker who has years of experience, building 1000's of cars, than by the guy who was hired last week.  If you want a job done, who do you want to do it? the guy who has done 1000's of similiar jobs, or the guy who has his nose in a manual and says "I think I understand this.."

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Yeah..... Grew up in Flint and Detroit Michigan with auto workers in my family.....  So yeaaah.  Oh person can have years of experience, and still be worthless if  Line completely changes.  Which is why they started switching to robots.  Speaking of which, by the time period in game everything would be machine automated, other than feeding the parts an blueprint into the system. 

 

Either way though, they took something that wasn't broken to begin with, and effectively broke it, because apparently someone felt that 200% should be rare.  Especially at the higher levels.  The current situation effectively kills the player made component market at lower levels, as if you can't get a 200% build with them, why bother using them, unless you're multi boxing and supplying your own ores and comps.  Same goes with the whole, everyone using plasma weapons thing. 

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