phillyd023 Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Now I believe i am to understand that the reduction in weapons delayy % is not entirely as it sounds. For example i have a Ruby disruptor, waking nightmare and contained voltoi esssence. that is 40% equip, 20% activate and 12% activate. What I CAN tell you is that my beams say they are a 4 second delay, however, whent he beam gets down to one second (see this by hovering mouse over the beam) it stays on 1 seocnd for about 2 seonds. So my buff say i have a 72% weapons delay. my normally 8 second beams after firing say 4 seconds delay and fir just over 5 seconds later (yes used a stopwatch) Is the turbo figured differently now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattsacre Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) You may misunderstand how that is achieved, even though you total that up to 72% it dosn't figure it that way, it takes one percentage and reduces that amount (I think equipt buffs are first) then it reduces the highest active buff off. Unless they have changed the rules of late it only reduces the highest equip and the highest active, the only way around a equip or active buff stacking is if the buff is called something else that achieves the same effect. As an example the solar sail 8 engine has a reactor renewal buff equip and other items have reactor recharge buff equip. By being nemed 2 differing buffs they stack since technically they are differing buffs, even though the achieve the same goal, to increase the rate in which your reactor recharges. So, that 12% acive buff, is it called the same as the 20%? If so then the later active buff applied is the one in effect, if you hit the active buff 12% it replaces the 20% unlike how equip buffs do where the better of them is applied. So the math is you apply it with the higher of the 2 active is. Weapons ROF=X Equip buff = Y Active buff= Z (X-Y)-Z=N N= actual fire rate. weap ROF- equip buff reduction totaled, then active buff reduction, totaled, then actual fire rate. It does not take 40% + 20% to make 60% then reduce. so the actual is a fraction under 60% since equip buff is done and totaled then the active buff then totaled. There are items that have a buff called weapons delay buff and others that say specific weapon type say beam delay buff. Those stack by the rules since they are differn't buffs even if they are achieving the same goal. Does that make sense to you as i explained? Edited February 27, 2013 by Mattsacre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgvol Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) ^^ - what he said. Isn't there also hard caps.. I.E weapons can't fire faster than Xs? Edited February 27, 2013 by dgvol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattsacre Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) Buffs do not stack unless named different. WN - 20% and CVE - 12% have the same buff name 'Turbo Weapons (Activated)' so you will only get the highest buff. - 20% pretty sure that the turbo calculation is not delay - ( delay * Turbo%) either.. There are items that decrease weap delay instead of turbo, I think one thing is a warder item, that stacks with turbo weapons activated since its a different buff. as to the active buffs, they dont do like equip buffs, they are whichever was applied last, so if you activate one, then the other, the later "wipes" the first and is the "new" active buff (unless they are weap delay and turbo %). This is one of the reasons people are asking for the ability to unapply buffs if they desire, so that if someone activates a buff on them and they didn't want it (because they had a better one already) they don't then have to reapply the better one they had in the first place. Edited February 27, 2013 by Mattsacre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgvol Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) Just had a look at the debugger.. the calculation is ROF / (1 + total turbo %) 8s beam with 60% turbo will be (8s / 1.6) = 5s I.E you are firing your beams 1.6 times faster.. if you have 100% turbo you would be firing twice as fast, 200% = 3 times as fast...etc. Edited February 27, 2013 by dgvol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willbonney Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Active turbos stack as long as they are different %'s now. There aren't new icons, because they removed them to give space for other buffs in the UI window. Again, active turbo weapons do stack. The effect of Turbo Weapons is not on the delay itself any more. It is on the DPS. For instance: I have a beam that does 1000 damage every 10 seconds. I equip 50% turbo weapons. My previous dps was 1000 damage / 10 seconds = 100dps The real calculation is 1000 damage x 6 firing per minutes / 60 = 100dps So, now to get to the increase, we have a 50% turbo, 100 x .5 = 50 + 100 = 150dps In order for that 1000 damage weapon to do 150 dps now, it reduces the rate of fire(RoF) by increase the number of fires per minute (FPM), therefore: 1000 damage x newFPM / 60 = 150 dps (rewritten algebraic form would be 1000x / 60 = 150) So, 150 x 60 = 9000 and then 9000 / 1000 = 9 This weapon would now fire 9 times every 60 seconds (delay of about 6.67). It used to fire 6 times every 60 seconds (delay of 10). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willbonney Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 If there is something wrong with the timer you are seeing, and the timer the game actually uses, it would be a bug that would need to be reported, so that things could be looked at and any problems could be found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstar [MOD] Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Also know that although the server may be calculation fractions of seconds or partial damage or whatever, it only displays whole numbers. I believe that in some instances there will be an extra shot calculated that may not be shown, so checking your ammo use would be useful too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgvol Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Active turbos stack as long as they are different %'s now. There aren't new icons, because they removed them to give space for other buffs in the UI window. Again, active turbo weapons do stack. The effect of Turbo Weapons is not on the delay itself any more. It is on the DPS. For instance: I have a beam that does 1000 damage every 10 seconds. I equip 50% turbo weapons. My previous dps was 1000 damage / 10 seconds = 100dps The real calculation is 1000 damage x 6 firing per minutes / 60 = 100dps So, now to get to the increase, we have a 50% turbo, 100 x .5 = 50 + 100 = 150dps In order for that 1000 damage weapon to do 150 dps now, it reduces the rate of fire(RoF) by increase the number of fires per minute (FPM), therefore: 1000 damage x newFPM / 60 = 150 dps (rewritten algebraic form would be 1000x / 60 = 150) So, 150 x 60 = 9000 and then 9000 / 1000 = 9 This weapon would now fire 9 times every 60 seconds (delay of about 6.67). It used to fire 6 times every 60 seconds (delay of 10). Huh.. bit confusing.. you start off by saying the buff isn't applied to the delay but delay is reduced yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willbonney Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) Aye, it's not directly to the delay. It is applied in a round about way. In LIve, they had to change things, because applying it directly to the delay, gave it an exponential increase the closer and closer it came to 100%. As in, a weapon with 80% Turbo that fired at 10 seconds, would then fire every 2 seconds. 90 % would be every 1 second. and then 99%, it would be .1 seconds, at 100% it would never turn off, and empty all ammo it had in a stack in under .1 seconds. Edited to add: mainly, it was changed to prevent a low Rate of Fire, High Damage Missile Launchers from firing as fast or faster than those using High Rate of Fire Low Damage PL's. Edited to add: High Damage ML's with turbo and the Low Damage PL's without turbo. ML's were never supposed to fire faster than PL's, regardless of how much turbo you put on the ML's. Edited February 27, 2013 by Willbonney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgvol Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Yeah so instead of turbo being a % discount to your ROF - it is how much % quicker your ROF is.. does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillyd023 Posted February 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Okay, so the 40%, 20% and 12% buffs on 8 second beams should make them fire at the least every 4 seconds am i correct? 8 second beam with 40% reduction = 4.8 seconds 4.8 second beam with 20% reduction = 3.84 seconds 3.84 second beams with 12% reduction = 3.37 seconds So it is not actually 72% of 8 seconds (which would be 2.24 seconds) Or am i still not getting it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgvol Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Turbo isn't a direct reduction any more. Think of turbo % as a decimal. ie 40% = .4 add 1 to get 1.4 you weapons are now firing 1.4x faster. New ROF = ROF / (1 + (1 * turbo %)) - logarithmic scale so it can never hit 0.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willbonney Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Yes, still not getting it... It does not apply the boost directly to the delay of the beam. That was the old method WestWood used, that they found faulty. What is the damage of the beam, as well as the reload timer. If it's is say 1200 damage, every 8 seconds, that would be 150DPS 150 DPS x .4 = 60 + 150 = 210 210 x .2 = 42 + 210 = 252 252 X .12 = 30.24 + 252 = 282 So, factoring in that it does not increase the "Base" damage of the beam, we keep the 1200 constant, so now we need to figure out the new delay of that beam. 1200 x FPM / 60 = 282 DPS Multiply both sides of the equation by 60, then divide by 1200 and we get a new FPM of FPM = 60 x 282 / 1200 = 14.1 FPM (Fires per minute). In order to get 14 firings every 60 seconds, that would be a delay of about 4.3 seconds. Now, as stated, the game rounds a bit differently in certain aspect, so the numbers may be a bit off, but that is a good approximation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willbonney Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Personally, I feel Rate of Fire is a bit missleading, and prefer the Fires per Minute to be less confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willbonney Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 The old patch notes from WWLive from when they made the changes: http://www.earthandbeyond.ca/server/patchviewer.jsp-id=644.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrell [BT] Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 That makes pretty good sense to me, and it's easy to understand. 40% turbo would essentially mean that your weapons did 40% more damage per second. Is that how it works here too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgvol Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) Yes, still not getting it... It does not apply the boost directly to the delay of the beam. That was the old method WestWood used, that they found faulty. What is the damage of the beam, as well as the reload timer. If it's is say 1200 damage, every 8 seconds, that would be 150DPS 150 DPS x .4 = 60 + 150 = 210 210 x .2 = 42 + 210 = 252 252 X .12 = 30.24 + 252 = 282 So, factoring in that it does not increase the "Base" damage of the beam, we keep the 1200 constant, so now we need to figure out the new delay of that beam. 1200 x FPM / 60 = 282 DPS Multiply both sides of the equation by 60, then divide by 1200 and we get a new FPM of FPM = 60 x 282 / 1200 = 14.1 FPM (Fires per minute). In order to get 14 firings every 60 seconds, that would be a delay of about 4.3 seconds. Now, as stated, the game rounds a bit differently in certain aspect, so the numbers may be a bit off, but that is a good approximation. Turbo % is combined before doing anything.. (or always uses the base dps in you case.. ) 72% turbo means you are doing 72% more damage.. your example calculates to 88% more damage. If we use 1200dmg and 8s we get the follow with 60% turbo. using ROF / (1 + (1 * turbo %)) = new ROF we get: 8s / 1.6 = 5 seconds using the DPS calc to get ROF. 150 * .6 + 150 = new dps of 240 get the rof per min = 60 * 240 / 1200 = 12 shots per min... or 1 shot ever 5 seconsds.. Edited February 27, 2013 by dgvol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willbonney Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 That's right DG, I had forgotten they had actuall changed it a second time, so it was no longer accumulative. Is my fault, was looking at older calculations and notes. Had thought was first applied was A(normally equipped), second B, so on and so forth. So your dps would be (OriginalDPS + ODPS x TurboA) = New DPSA NDPSA + NDPSA x Turbo B = New DPSB NDPSB + NDSPB x Turbo C = New DPSC Having it total, instead of accumulative, our math works out exactly the same. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyp [LDEV] Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 That makes pretty good sense to me, and it's easy to understand. 40% turbo would essentially mean that your weapons did 40% more damage per second. Is that how it works here too? Correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamchakk1952 Posted August 7, 2013 Report Share Posted August 7, 2013 I am thinking that this says that the accumulation of turbo effect only applies to activated items, is that correct? In other words, if I equip two items that have turbo "on equip", those will not stack. Did I read this right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrell [BT] Posted August 7, 2013 Report Share Posted August 7, 2013 I am thinking that this says that the accumulation of turbo effect only applies to activated items, is that correct? In other words, if I equip two items that have turbo "on equip", those will not stack. Did I read this right? Not sure on this one, but the 2 equip ones might stack if they have different names. The developers would have to verify that this applies to turbo too, and not just other equip buffs who have different names but do the same thing. If you have Reactor Recharge (equip) & Reactor Renewal (equip) buffs they do stack, even though they do the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattsacre Posted August 17, 2013 Report Share Posted August 17, 2013 There are turbo weapons ( general description) equip buffs and turbo X equip buffs (specificly PL, ML, Beam turbo is named in the description) that stack equip. Like the Weapon or device will have 20%, 30% or 40% buff equip to that TYPE of weapon and then a addition effect from something else will say turbo WEAPON (not specifying the weapon type)..those stack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanig[IS] Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 Equip turbo is one buff, you can only have one up to 40%. The largest one wins. (e.g.: Fury of the Master overrides something with a 20% equipped) The turbo weapons buff from GoBB weapons was changed last year to the same buff as other equipped turbos (no more stacking to 80 with two weapons). Activated turbo is multiple different buffs (it is possible to stack multiple activatables) Naturally i cannot tell you how, but I am sure many of you know. And dont forget there is a hard cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efialtis Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Care to share what the hard cap is Stanig? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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