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Are the devs ever going to fix beam range?

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In Live using beams at anything past half of their range reduced their damage by 50%.  In the EMU you can sit at max range and still do 100% beam damage.  This means all Jen (but especially JDs), can sit and kite mobs that can't even see them.  This has been bugged/mentioned several times during ST3 and ST4 but I don't even recall seeing Devs even acknowledge how bad of an exploit it is.  Its such an exploit for Jen atm and I feel bad for progen especially.

 

note: giving every mob 9k missile range, especially those that should not have missiles (like voltoi and all other bio's), is not the fix for this problem.

 

 

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This has come up in recent meetings.  No idea when, but I know its being looked at, especially the ranges past what even terrans can get with missiles.  The lower damage at range is somewhere in the Soon(tm) category.

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The beam thing is supposed to work as follows.  Beams do maximum damage at ranges 50% and less, 1/2 damage at maximum range, and the damage is supposed to fall off gradually from 50% range to maximum range. 

 

It was possible in EnB Origins to kill mobs that couldn't see us, it usually involved using a Coma device and having a very low signature.  It should generally require patience, the right choices in equipment, and good tactics.   Mobs that had their scan ranges reduced couldn't shoot what they couldn't see.   Coma is one of the things that Jenquai get as a work around our poor shields.

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The beam thing is supposed to work as follows.  Beams do maximum damage at ranges 50% and less, 1/2 damage at maximum range, and the damage is supposed to fall off gradually from 50% range to maximum range. 

 

It was possible in EnB Origins to kill mobs that couldn't see us, it usually involved using a Coma device and having a very low signature.  It should generally require patience, the right choices in equipment, and good tactics.   Mobs that had their scan ranges reduced couldn't shoot what they couldn't see.   Coma is one of the things that Jenquai get as a work around our poor shields.

All of that would be great if some mobs were not linked the way they are. Many more than live now see cloaked also. Some mobs now you use the coma on and it goes nuts, rubber-band in and out of range. The game still has many, many bugs. I think we all must be patient and take compromises at this point. I realize the Devs are working hard and trying their best. I just question a few of the decisions they make as far as agro for mobs ect.

 

WE all pull for the Devs and hope they think about the changes made and just keep the game fun for us all. Myself, I could care less about balance, the Original live toons were not balanced. Why now and how do you do that. getting back to beams why do they lose damage at range when missiles and projectiles don't.  I have had a DEv tell me straight up, this is not original live and he hates that argument when people quote a problem. OK then, make this EMU better, the original wasn't perfect. JMO but just keep the game fun, careful with the nerf bats. Don't force everyone to group or dual box for everyday mobs. I understand the need for groups in Raids and agree, but keep it fun for the casual player for everyday grinding. Through them a bone, let them get a few nice drops and make some credits.

 

I think the Dev team has made some nice changes and done some great things. I just wish they were more in tune with the player base atm. Just my 2 cents guys. I am sorry to ramble on about different thoughts on this thread about beam damage.

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I agree Matsu.  Those various things do need to be fixed, and I'm quite willing to be patient on them.  I agree especially on the Coma device, being a Jenquai, I'd love it to work perfectly, and am willing to wait and see on it.  Mobs who have been blinded should not be able to fire on what they cannot see, but they should be able to move toward or away from the source of fire upon them.  I think that behavior should be governed by the mob's aggression/bravery stats.  Some should try and figure out where you are, others should try to run.  I'm a bit concerned on the see cloaked front as well, too many mobs like that and the Jenquai race's main skill becomes useless.  Jenquai are not meant to be tanks, but to fight by stealth, if for more than a few select mobs our stealth is negated, playing Jenquai will be much less fun.

 

Edit:  I especially agree on the issues of solo play, as someone who likes to do that plenty.  I do think that the linked agro on many everyday mobs is a bit much.   It's one of the reasons I like the idea of more mining projects over the long term and not just the MCP. 

 

I also agree with the OP that not all mobs should have MLs  some shouldn't and 9K ML range is a bit much for mobs that aren't raid mobs.

Edited by Terrell

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The beam thing is supposed to work as follows.  Beams do maximum damage at ranges 50% and less, 1/2 damage at maximum range, and the damage is supposed to fall off gradually from 50% range to maximum range. 

 

It was possible in EnB Origins to kill mobs that couldn't see us, it usually involved using a Coma device and having a very low signature.  It should generally require patience, the right choices in equipment, and good tactics.   Mobs that had their scan ranges reduced couldn't shoot what they couldn't see.   Coma is one of the things that Jenquai get as a work around our poor shields.

The ability to kill a mob that couldn't see you even if damage was done was fixed due to the "fishing at Tada-0 Gate."  As soon as you took any agressive actions against a mob, they could "see" you.

 

As for missiles losing damage at range, can't say I'm too happy about that...  Beams are instant damage, where as projectile and missile damage timing is based upon the speed of the ammo.  Fairly certain that was a key feature when it came to weapons and making your choice.

 

That is the answer to the question of why beams do less damage across their ranges and not pl's and ml's.  Instant damage > delayed damage in many circumstances.

Edited by Willbonney

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If a mob can automatically see you as soon as you take any aggressive action against them, regardless of the circumstances, what point would there be in being able to cloak, have low signature, or use the Coma device?  Essentially it would be an across the board nerf to the Jenquai race.  Every thing that the Jenquai do in combat would become useless, particularly in solo play as Jenquai are not designed to tank, but to avoid damage as much as possible via stealth tactics. 

 

I think that putting see cloaked on most things over CL50 is a bit too far, there should be a happy medium between solo-able raids, and most everything over CL50 sees cloaked.   IMO a better option would be to fix the near instant cloak bug. 

 

Mobs that can actually see cloaked should be relatively few & far between, now I can see some raid mobs doing so, but for mobs in general (as in not associated with any raid) most should not see cloaked.  

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Cloaking still worked to de agro the mob off the Jenpie.  And the sig deal still reduced the range at which they could see you prior to agression.  The fix of being able to fight a mob that wouldn't fight back was due to the Gate.  Can't say it is all my fault, but used to sit outside their site range at ~8km and just loose my 77% turbo (pre-nerf) and a JE Laurimus would loot for me.  Solo'd the first two bosses that way, though needed an ammo hauler going back and forth from OMP.

 

After that, once you shot or used an aggressive skill on them, they would agro.  And their sight range even increased.  As in, if their normal agro site was 8k, you agro'd, you'd have to be a good deal further away, 2 to 3 times it's normal range, before it would drop agro.  I remember some mobs would follow you across the entire map and not deagro at one point in the game (and yeah, pissed off a raid when someone took off with a big boss and we couldn't find him, heh).  That later got fixed so that at some range, any and all mob would drop.

 

Edited to add:  The point behind not being able to do damage, without taking damage, was the fact that they didn't want to have any one player to have that "IWIN button."

 

Also:  I remember using the JD tactic on mine as well, and after the fix, it no longer worked, at least on the mobs I was popping

Edited by Willbonney

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No it doesn't.   Cloaking does not cancel agro in emulator, I have a JE and JT that have combat cloak already.  Cloaking doesn't make something that's already has agro on you to stop being agroed on you.  It didn't in ST3 or ST4 either.  Not if you get far away from it, or if someone else attacks it that may cancel the agro on you, but getting far enough away may also work for Terrans or Progen, though you might need to be further away, depending on your signature & the mob's scan range.  What it does, is that mobs that cannot see cloaked, cannot fire on you while cloaked, but the little indicators don't stop flashing between red & yellow just because a Jenquai is cloaked and if in range the mob will attack as soon as you drop cloak.  (unless you're behind him and he isn't equipped with MLs.)

 

 

Now should some mobs be able to see cloaked, yeah, some raid mobs, and a select few in the rest of the game, but most should not.  Instead of giving tons of mobs see cloaked, what they should do is fix the insta cloak bug that has been mentioned before, (in other threads) or fix the no damage for missiles or projectiles that are e en route before you cloak.  Even if there was a 50% chance that said ammo en route would do full or partial damage, and a very small chance of it doing none, damage would still be done.  Since mobs in raids should be major mobs that work together, that's an easy solution to his problem that doesn't require the nerf bat.

 

Usually avoiding damage, via coma, cloaking,  etc. should require some skill in doing so.  Shouldn't be easy, but shouldn't be impossible either, when it comes to things outside of raids.   If there's no way to avoid damage, based on skill of playing your character, then what's the point in improving one's strategies & tactics with said toon?

 

Also using a debuffer, like a Coma device, is taking an aggressive action against a mob.

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I think its a dumb idea. I understand thats how it was in "Live" but do we have to follow it 100%?  Sometimes its hard enough when grouped/formation just to get close enough to use beams and now  there gonna be reduced in power?  My PP does 2-3x the amount of damage my JS can and he can do it at ranges my JS cant even fire at, id be willing to bet just my Shield Inversion does half as much damage as my JS with lvl 7 beams..... and now you want to reduce him to a bb gun when he does get in range? Maybe some people can sit back and kill mobs without being seen but I know my JS cant right now.. ive never found a mob that I can kite from a distance where im not seen.

 

I understand that Projectiles and Missiles have to 'travel' to do damage but once you hit the MOB it turns at you which makes a few sets of rounds hit at almost the same time for some massive damage.  It works to your advantage since you can fire and start to back off before the MOB is ever agro'd at you there is several sets of rounds already heading his way where as with beams 1 shot instantly brings the agro and your already up close and personal...  Seems like the damage falling off past 50% range is just a way to force people to constantly combat cloak and fight outside of a formation since the other 2 weapon classes can push 1 button and sit back at a distance and impact full damage where someone with beams might not eve nbe within range to fire at all (I remember in ST3 being in a gorup and having ot ask the leader mob after mob to move in closer just so I could shoot..  You can put it in a nice box with a pretty bow and call this a 'Tactic' but in reality its a brown paper bag with #2 inside, and thats called NERFing.  

 

 

The entire point of a formation is to be in close with your buddies for support and fight as a group.. not be forced to constantly move around the battle field outside the box of your buddies.  But from what Stanig said they are going to mess with this so Maybe find a way to make it so that when your grouped and in formation you get a damage increase to beams past 50%  Maybe have the dropoff at 100% range be only 75-80% Damage, at least then its a reward for being in formation and working as a team.   Opinions on this?

 

Edit:  I only played Live for a few months..and I was a JD and I do not recall my beams being any less lethal at range compared to up close... is this even a real feature of live?

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Um, gotta ask, why in the hell are you in formation at all for a beam user?  On occasion I might put a JE in a form with the group, but with my JD I was never formed, as when JD pulled agro it was a pain in the rear to get it off, so a quick warp out and back was often needed in the bigger battles, as it was rough for a TT to catch it before your shield was gone.

 

Except maybe leveling, I honestly can't remember a time I would leave my JD within the formation.  Just kept an eye on my distance to the group to try to remain in range for the TT's shield recharge.

 

The range thing, eh, it's kind of obvious that needs a fixing.  Beams are supposed to do the most damage (thus JD's are glass cannons), and the shortest range.  PL's were the most consistent damage over time, and mid-ranged.  and ML's the least damage but furthest range.  If folks are saying they are getting beam ranges greater than missile ranges, that's a problem.

 

As for the closer you are the more powerful the beam hit, that makes sense.  If there needs to be some tweaking in the amount of damage the actual weapons do, I'm sure that will be looked at to keep things balanced.  I understand the lore is "in the vaccum of space" however if you understand the physics implications of beams and lasers, the energy spreads out over distance and so on impact has less of an intensity.  Thus why Val Kilmer's super laser from Real Genius doesn't exist yet, where you get a huge hole based on the output size of the beam.  Sure, we have high intensity lasers, but their efficiency across distance is similar to what is being discussed.  It has to do with the focusing of the energy so that you are pointing all the particles to as small a point as possible.  So beyond that point, you lose the focus.  And focusing the energy is key.  But on that note, would also mean being too close would be just as bad, but that would be a terrible thing to do within the scope of the game.

 

Could be an idea though, put a 100m "sweet" spot that if you remain within that range, you get 2x damage or something.  Ranges up to it's half max 100%, and then beyond would drop so that max range would be 50%.

 

An idea maybe, I kind of like the idea of a "sweet" spot where the focus is ideal for the beam.

Edited by Willbonney

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I think its a dumb idea. I understand thats how it was in "Live" but do we have to follow it 100%?  Sometimes its hard enough when grouped/formation just to get close enough to use beams and now  there gonna be reduced in power?  My PP does 2-3x the amount of damage my JS can and he can do it at ranges my JS cant even fire at, id be willing to bet just my Shield Inversion does half as much damage as my JS with lvl 7 beams..... and now you want to reduce him to a bb gun when he does get in range? Maybe some people can sit back and kill mobs without being seen but I know my JS cant right now.. ive never found a mob that I can kite from a distance where im not seen.

 

I understand that Projectiles and Missiles have to 'travel' to do damage but once you hit the MOB it turns at you which makes a few sets of rounds hit at almost the same time for some massive damage.  It works to your advantage since you can fire and start to back off before the MOB is ever agro'd at you there is several sets of rounds already heading his way where as with beams 1 shot instantly brings the agro and your already up close and personal...  Seems like the damage falling off past 50% range is just a way to force people to constantly combat cloak and fight outside of a formation since the other 2 weapon classes can push 1 button and sit back at a distance and impact full damage where someone with beams might not eve nbe within range to fire at all (I remember in ST3 being in a gorup and having ot ask the leader mob after mob to move in closer just so I could shoot..  You can put it in a nice box with a pretty bow and call this a 'Tactic' but in reality its a brown paper bag with #2 inside, and thats called NERFing.  

 

 

The entire point of a formation is to be in close with your buddies for support and fight as a group.. not be forced to constantly move around the battle field outside the box of your buddies.  But from what Stanig said they are going to mess with this so Maybe find a way to make it so that when your grouped and in formation you get a damage increase to beams past 50%  Maybe have the dropoff at 100% range be only 75-80% Damage, at least then its a reward for being in formation and working as a team.   Opinions on this?

 

Edit:  I only played Live for a few months..and I was a JD and I do not recall my beams being any less lethal at range compared to up close... is this even a real feature of live?

Due to the fact that Jenquai are currently able to use a setup that can fire from 8.19k with a very low chance of even being attacked all while doing max damage?  You damn right its gonna be nerfed.

 

No risk whatsoever, and I have reproduced it myself, multiple times.  Thats farther than any terran or progen can fire, has the benefit of instant damage, can be done outside of the scan range of the mob, AND is still doing its full maximum damage.

 

Sorry but seriously, right now because of a couple little issues the jenquai professions are able to do things they simply should not be able to do.  The short range profession is now the long range kiter, and in the case of the Defender a long range invisible sniper with the highest DPS potential in the game?

 

No.

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Um, gotta ask, why in the hell are you in formation at all for a beam user?  On occasion I might put a JE in a form with the group, but with my JD I was never formed, as when JD pulled agro it was a pain in the rear to get it off, so a quick warp out and back was often needed in the bigger battles, as it was rough for a TT to catch it before your shield was gone.

         Thats your style of playing, for me I would ask why the hell are you running away from the fight? So because you get some agro you tuck tail and bail untill its safe for you to return?  to me that makes no sence... to you its perfectly normal.   Its just two style of play.   And to be honest  whenever ive grouped with someone who was using beams ive never seen anyone play like that.. ive always seen them stay in formation and fight it out along side me.

 

Due to the fact that Jenquai are currently able to use a setup that can fire from 8.19k with a very low chance of even being attacked all while doing max damage?  You damn right its gonna be nerfed.

 

No risk whatsoever, and I have reproduced it myself, multiple times.  Thats farther than any terran or progen can fire, has the benefit of instant damage, can be done outside of the scan range of the mob, AND is still doing its full maximum damage.

 

Sorry but seriously, right now because of a couple little issues the jenquai professions are able to do things they simply should not be able to do.  The short range profession is now the long range kiter, and in the case of the Defender a long range invisible sniper with the highest DPS potential in the game?

 

No.

 

 

Due to the fact that Jenquai are currently able to use a setup that can fire from 8.19k with a very low chance of even being attacked all while doing max damage?  You damn right its gonna be nerfed.

 

Stanig- Im all for fixing exploits/issue with the game.. but I dont like that things are done to fix one problem only to create another issue that gives the player a disadvantage over others because a few people wanna run around and exploit bugs/issue.

 But when you say "Dam right its gonna be nerfed" I take that as you would rather NERF and entire class of weapons instead of fixing the actual issue. You even said yourself there is a few issues with the Jenq race that allow them to do these things.. what those issues are I have no idea, but obviously you do.. so why not work on those issues rather then screw with a entire weapons class?

 

I hope I do not come off as a jackass in my post but sometimes its hard to understand where someone is coming from just by reading text. Im gratefull for all the work you guys are putting in and im just voicing my opinion/thoughts/suggestions on how to improve.

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can you tell me ..if you want to 'balance' which is wheight more or less:

cloak+paper hull vs L9 shield +hull dmg skill

coma vs kite vs grav link  kite

beams bad energy efficiency/low range inta dmg vs proj efficiency good range vs missiles high range, able to shoot backwards

 

please think very well before you nerf any of these above to 'balance' the game and yes i'm speaking not for jenquai only stuff, but overal - every race got something which is good at, just make sure raid bosses cant be soloed but that all.

to hear that JD cant kill solo cooper tengu bosses is sad because I can kill them with TE and PW solo (with a bit difficulty with pw, but doable)

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In Live using beams at anything past half of their range reduced their damage by 50%.  In the EMU you can sit at max range and still do 100% beam damage.  This means all Jen (but especially JDs), can sit and kite mobs that can't even see them.  This has been bugged/mentioned several times during ST3 and ST4 but I don't even recall seeing Devs even acknowledge how bad of an exploit it is.

 

This has been fixed now and will be live with the next publish.

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Oh joy, just what me need, another nerf when other supporting items don't work right. You might want to consider fixing the support devices like the coma, etc first before doing something like this.

 

Please guys, stop nerfing the hell out of this game. Its getting old and we're getting really tired of it.

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Little late..but here goes.

Lets not get all logical or anything :)

Beams are a certain frequency of light, light tends to disperse over long distances, it takes the light from the sun approx. 8 minutes to get to earth and is "dispersed", if it didn't we would all be riddled with holes. When you fire a beam it is near instantanious dmg, but SHOULD disperse over distance..that is the price paid for that weapon type.

 

Missles are packages of dmg propeled by excelerants, they thrust towards target increasing in velocity as they expel their fuel (due to lower and lower mass) they make slight course corrections during flight, they have longer range than projectile becuase they have time to correct trajectory. If they run out of fuel prior to striking target, and target moves from previous trajectory they miss, in this game that is their "range" fuel gone..miss.

 

Projectiles are bullets plain and simple, they are aimed and travel towards target until striking and expelling their dmg, they don't make course corrections during travel time, but becuase they don't have to carry fuel like a missle they have low mass, I.E. they travel much faster, but have to be much closer since they lose velosity rapidly.

 

So were in there is a beam being able to "travel" X amount of distance and not disperse? A beam like that is like a bat, all energy at set range, no drop off, that isn't logical and isn't truly functioning correctly. A missle has a travel time and greater miss rate, a projectile has a travel time, a slightly less miss rate than missle, but becuase its a much greater ROF dmg levels out from the greater total misses.

 

From simple logic and game dynamics a beam MUST have a lower dmg at long range, it is its "fail" rate that other weapon types have and the price paid for its use. For it not to have a dispersal penalty you are going to have to give ML & PL instant dmg and less miss/fail rate...not going to happen and would be silly.

 

Just saying...

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Correct assessment Matt.

 

That is the principle at work here (and also to combat the current issue of 9k range jenquai doing full damage)

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Oh joy, just what me need, another nerf when other supporting items don't work right. You might want to consider fixing the support devices like the coma, etc first before doing something like this.

 

Please guys, stop nerfing the hell out of this game. Its getting old and we're getting really tired of it.

 

1.

It was always supposed to work like this and didn't so far. The OP was asking for a fix - now it has been fixed.

 

2.

Coma is working afaik.

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Correct assessment Matt.

 

That is the principle at work here (and also to combat the current issue of 9k range jenquai doing full damage)

So it has gone from 8.19 range to 9K range now. The only Beam I know of with that kind of range is the Proto, it doesn't do the damage the better beams do. Also with no debuff, which you can't at that range it would take forever to kill the higher lv. mobs. You are taking 1 beam out of content to make your argument. Better stick to your PW Stanig because your knowledge of JDs is lacking.

 

Also for Matt, the misses on beams is on a par or more than missiles.

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1.

It was always supposed to work like this and didn't so far. The OP was asking for a fix - now it has been fixed.

2.

Coma is working afaik.

 

First point, No kidding. I remember how it was in live, but there are other things that need more attention than this. With a roll of the dice on the amount of damage delivered per shot, per beam, this isn't a good idea.

 

Your second point, Mobs take off in a given direction at high speed when hit by a coma. Try it and see. Go hit the RD base, GoBB, etc with it and see.

 

On Matt's discussion... We are talking about short distances for concentrated focused light and particle weapons. A few kilometers is no where near enough to disperse that much focused energy. Lasers today can maintain a cohesive beam for thousands of miles. All I am going to say about it. Yes, I have had a few physics classes, and I have other first hand (personal) sources on technology like this. Its not too difficult to understand.

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So it has gone from 8.19 range to 9K range now. The only Beam I know of with that kind of range is the Proto, it doesn't do the damage the better beams do. Also with no debuff, which you can't at that range it would take forever to kill the higher lv. mobs. You are taking 1 beam out of content to make your argument. Better stick to your PW Stanig because your knowledge of JDs is lacking.

 

Also for Matt, the misses on beams is on a par or more than missiles.

LOL seriously dude dont diss me on professions, I play JD quite well and always have in the emulator.  I actually got my 9k based on a roundup from 8.73k with a vindis beam focus device 4 proto 9s @ 100% and a 200% DG on a standard loadout JD with otherwise store bought gear from joves, so just dont even sit here and say a word to me about my methodologies and insight into how things work bud, you will lose, badly.

 

I dont take undocumented reports at face value, this was thoroughly tested.  I was even able to reproduce the issue where you can effectively sit without even moving or cloaking and range snipe mobs that cant find you at approx 9k range.

 

That being said, the 50 percent change was already going in, left up to me (which was shot down based on original live stat preservation) the proto 9 woulda also been reduced in base range to 2.5k.  But that isnt happening, so be happy.

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LOL seriously dude dont diss me on professions, I play JD quite well and always have in the emulator.  I actually got my 9k based on a roundup from 8.73k with a vindis beam focus device 4 proto 9s @ 100% and a 200% DG on a standard loadout JD with otherwise store bought gear from joves, so just dont even sit here and say a word to me about my methodologies and insight into how things work bud, you will lose, badly.

 

I dont take undocumented reports at face value, this was thoroughly tested.  I was even able to reproduce the issue where you can effectively sit without even moving or cloaking and range snipe mobs that cant find you at approx 9k range.

 

That being said, the 50 percent change was already going in, left up to me (which was shot down based on original live stat preservation) the proto 9 woulda also been reduced in base range to 2.5k.  But that isnt happening, so be happy.

You can blow your own horn all you want as to knowledge of class play. That is a matter of opinion and can't be proven so I want go as far as you as say I know more. People try to give valid arguments as to the way they see the game going and you always seem to try to make it personal and a pissing match. My opinion on the game is as I have posted many times. Many things done in game are good and the work is greatly appreciated. That said many in the player base atm disagree with the way the game is heading and feel the Devs are out of touch with the player base atm. We don't understand all the nerfs and worry about some things when there are many more bugs to worry about. We would like to just keep the game fun is all.

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So you think we should leave all exploits in the game?  Here, proof of the 8.73.  Also, before todays patch you could use this range with the full damage.  Not to mention doubling it also with combat cloak.  And this IS A GOOD THING?  Explain how?  remember with hulkfest 2.0 earlier this month people were stockpiling 120 and 125 percent versions of the P9 as well.  I know this for fact, as i looked it up in the database.  There are not many under 115, most less than that were obviously spaced for higher percents.  These beams do 554 @ 100.  That is doubled by CC and tripled by skill level, and doubled again by crit targeting.  Each one of these beams strikes for over 6000 damage every 6 seconds if cycling CC. 

 

Ga1uiI8.jpg

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Oh and sidenote, you made it personal with the snarky comment of "stick to pw"

 

I play all nine professions.

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