Healer Agro

[Rossdie [BT]]

Perhaps using the L5 version of the heal, and healing the tank solo would get less agro, but that also means that the L5 heal, on a maxed and buffed trader, heal enough shields to be worth lowering the level, as to not draw as much agro.  If a Trader uses L5 heal, and it's supposed to give X amount of healing multiplied by level, does it multiply X amount of healing by 5, on a maxed trader, or by 7?  Or by more if the trader has maxed skill and buffs to heal skill?

 

The problem with using the lvl5 heal as oppsed to the max multi heal is the lvl 5 only give 1440 per skill level so even if it does register at lvl7 thats 1440x7 and using the lvl7 heal is 5760x7 plus your other shield recharge buffs gives a max of 57600 to your target and 19200 to others in range, so it is a big difference. The problem I see isnt the base 57600 you give I believe it may be adding all your heals together for everyone in range in which you would never get aggro back off the healer unless u use Sap, enrage or some other skill to pull it off the healer in which the only skill I know of that lands all the time is SAP.

[Stanig[IS]]

Just to add an idea to the convo, what would you guys think if...

 

Area heal only affected members you were grouped with, but you could still use the "direct targeted" to heal one other player outside of your group at a time.

 

Example:  TT in group heals a PW in another group, the PW gets the full big heal but only the members of the TTs group get the AOE splash.

[Rossdie [BT]]

Just to add an idea to the convo, what would you guys think if...

 

Area heal only affected members you were grouped with, but you could still use the "direct targeted" to heal one other player outside of your group at a time.

 

Example:  TT in group heals a PW in another group, the PW gets the full big heal but only the members of the TTs group get the AOE splash.

I don't care for that idea, especially raiding when you don't want the healers in the main fighting group. The thing is there needs to be a way to limit the timer to switch back to the warriors since they are doing the damage to the mobs, right now it's hard to pull aggro off of a healer and yes I know some DEV;s hate multi-boxers but it affects everyone not just us hated multi-boxers. The only other way would be to make every skill that warriors have hit every time. And no I don't need the game to be totally safe as in never die, but right now in the big raid your going to die alot as a healer.

[Stanig[IS]]

Ross almost all of the lag in a raid is the spiderweb of each healer healing everyone, and then it overlaps exponentially as you add more.  You should have to have healers in the kill groups, how the heck do you watch the tanks/dps otherwise?

[barachius]

Im sorry here,

but what exactly is a jenquai seeker's method for theoretically reducing their aggro? Does cloak reduce aggro? aside from this i have no idea how i could even do it. And with only level 8 shields im just curious as to how its possible. Not that TT  BF even works, because that point is irrelevent.

 

Just curious.

[Terrell [BT]]

She doesn't really have one as cloaking doesn't reset agro.  It's also the case that many raid bosses can see cloaked, so I don't think she can avoid being killed after Recharging Shields.   The best things she does have is coma, and low signature, but I doubt that's enough to keep mobs from including her in their game of "smash the Trader".  I'd say that in terms of healing she's the 3rd string healer at best.  I've argued for her to get new device effects, etc. so she can contribute beyond her battery bot abilities from Reactor Optimization and the Quasar line of devices.

[snotty]

I think the current threat is based on the amount you heal and overheal, for a max level group heal that is a lot of agro (60k on target + 10k per person in range)

[barachius]

so basically the "Fix" that was implented to make skills that were never used , actually used, just broke seekers in terms of actually healing even worse then they already were?

 

So now they have crappy damage unlimited reactor energy, and if they heal they die..... REALLY?

[SiSL]

Just to add an idea to the convo, what would you guys think if...

 

Area heal only affected members you were grouped with, but you could still use the "direct targeted" to heal one other player outside of your group at a time.

 

Example:  TT in group heals a PW in another group, the PW gets the full big heal but only the members of the TTs group get the AOE splash.

 

That's what I suggested above...

 

And that's a grand idea I tell you... 

 

Therefor, Area does not overheat the battle and pull mobs all around on or other players...

 

I also suggest, if player has higher than L5 Combat Shield Recharge, using this ability (single target) increases amount of heal based on skill level in par with area heal abilities but on single target, rather than stucking at L5 only...

[Shadinax2]

Regardless of how people think the aggro should work, here's some of the ideas we have tried to help save healers that have worked to a point:

 

Placing the healers out of formation, 3-4k behind the intended tanks (between the tanks and the mob), sometimes results in less aggro from the healers. HOWEVER, despite using enrage spam on all the tanks, area immob(most boss mobs are immune to immob), the healers will eventually get aggro, and they are out of range for befriend to work(only applicable for TT's, where the Seeker has a cloak, the PP does not have anything but menace to help, and menace is a chaos element, not a saver, and most boss mobs are immune to menace).

 

In addition to placing the healers away from the group, many boss mobs have the range to just simply switch targets and nuke the healers, the healers must be ready to be mobile on their own, pretty much forcing them to group up in healer groups, and not a balanced synergy of healers and tanks in a kill group.

 

While I have tested the psionic debuffers and the use of enrage and hack/biorepression etc, the result is the same (with about on avg, 10% less resists) in that the healers get and HOLD the aggro by using a skill that is somewhat spammable, but they only need to hit it once to have sustained threat. Let alone if the healer is a pro and able to debuff and dps ontop of healing initially.

 

I like what SiSL said about area heals, making the lower ranked single target only heals heal on par with the area heals, without the splash. Might be a good way to reduce the amount of threat the healers are getting, altho I am still gaining mass amounts of threat when I use combat heal on my seeker. Looking at this and [url=https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/8436-suggestion-tank/]this thread[/url] for an aggro overhaul, might be worth a discussion workshop at a future dev meeting.

[Terrell [BT]]

For the Fishbowl, and those raids that don't happen in a Gravity Well, you can avoid damage to the TT by having a TT and JW in each group.  TT and JW stay off to the side, Warriors fight the front lines, explorers debuff or JS as needed.  Warrior or Explorer in need of heal JW summons, TT heals, they go back into the fight.  You'll need more groups to get it done, and it won't work for GoBB or Controller since they're in gravity wells, but it will keep the TTs alive.  JT then doesn't do any healing, instead she applies her reactor buffs to warriors, and does backup debuffer duties to the JE.

[Mattsacre]

For the Fishbowl, and those raids that don't happen in a Gravity Well, you can avoid damage to the TT by having a TT and JW in each group.  TT and JW stay off to the side, Warriors fight the front lines, explorers debuff or JS as needed.  Warrior or Explorer in need of heal JW summons, TT heals, they go back into the fight.  You'll need more groups to get it done, and it won't work for GoBB or Controller since they're in gravity wells, but it will keep the TTs alive.  JT then doesn't do any healing, instead she applies her reactor buffs to warriors, and does backup debuffer duties to the JE.

So basicly the JS don't do what they are suppost to do--heal, they are religated to battery duty, well good news then, they will only be 8th chosen class in raid, right above 9th PS!

 

PP will be 6th chosen..since they will be allowed to heal, having a L9 shield, but hey better not shoot or use menace, since adding that to the already healagro insanity will ensure their death. Actually 6th and 7th will be toss up between PP and TS, depends just how bad the #2 chosen TT is at hull patching or if the TE is tanking due to PW shortages.

 

Good thing for JD though , they will never be less than 3rd choice, since it's them that is going to be doing the actual killing of the boss/mob, the TE/PW will be spending all their time trying to save the healers, not killing the boss/mobs, the JD can cloak and dagger or dagger and tele all they need while the others burn.

 

Good news for the JE also, they are going to be no less than #4, with JS and battery skills, and the debuffs..they are going to be the explorer of choice so any group of 6 even with double upped healers/warrior they are going to always get a group even squeeking in as the 6th.

 

That about sum it up for everyone? Healagro now realignes everyones chances of a group, if you are a PS or JS get used to solo action..you need not apply. Don't feel bad, at least you aren't going to get the XP debt and equipment dings the TT/TE/PW/PPare going to get..( of course that means you aren't getting raid gear either....but you can't have everything can you?)

[Klyde]

A lot of really good info flowing in this thread. :)

 

Reduce the splash radius on heals, and get the agro skills working so the tanks can reaquire agro. A healer is gonna heal, whether it is the tank or himself, which serves to compound the agro and leads to xp debt currently.

 

The OL of EnB relied on groups of mixed characters working together to win against the odds, be it in a raid or just normal hunting in dangerous areas. All classes should have a role in a group, too bad the client doesn't allow for 9 man groups considering the advent of the missing classes.

 

OL had healer agro in raids and was pretty major in some Bogeril raids, but not like it is today, not even close.

 

Dunno if Matt above is being sarcastic, but kinda hits it spot on with how many feel currently.

[Terrell [BT]]

So basicly the JS don't do what they are suppost to do--heal, they are religated to battery duty, well good news then, they will only be 8th chosen class in raid, right above 9th PS!

 

PP will be 6th chosen..since they will be allowed to heal, having a L9 shield, but hey better not shoot or use menace, since adding that to the already healagro insanity will ensure their death. Actually 6th and 7th will be toss up between PP and TS, depends just how bad the #2 chosen TT is at hull patching or if the TE is tanking due to PW shortages.

 

Good thing for JD though , they will never be less than 3rd choice, since it's them that is going to be doing the actual killing of the boss/mob, the TE/PW will be spending all their time trying to save the healers, not killing the boss/mobs, the JD can cloak and dagger or dagger and tele all they need while the others burn.

 

Good news for the JE also, they are going to be no less than #4, with JS and battery skills, and the debuffs..they are going to be the explorer of choice so any group of 6 even with double upped healers/warrior they are going to always get a group even squeeking in as the 6th.

 

That about sum it up for everyone? Healagro now realignes everyones chances of a group, if you are a PS or JS get used to solo action..you need not apply. Don't feel bad, at least you aren't going to get the XP debt and equipment dings the TT/TE/PW/PPare going to get..( of course that means you aren't getting raid gear either....but you can't have everything can you?)

 

I've long argued that the JT needed some new and unique device effects, to make her more useful since she's the least capable as a healer of the 3 traders.   The L8 shield, and raid mobs that can see cloaked, makes it pretty hard for the JT to survive firing off a Recharge Shields.  She does get the Chimaera & Coma that the JE gets, so she can back him up in debuffing duty.

 

The explorers are pretty much interchangeable on JS duty.  The JE would bring the usual things JEs bring in terms of buffs & debuffs.  The PE would bring extra firepower compared to the other explorers.  Scout may risk a hull patch or two, but will likely need to be quick on the warp button as they're just as vulnerable as the JT.  Scout more likely to carry a Salamander to debuff explosive than the other 2 explorers, who are unlikely to be using explosive weapons.  JE and Scout can get near instant warp engage with the right equipment.

 

The PT could fire his weapons just fine, as a gun, who may occasionally fire off a recharge, but the resulting agro and reactor limitations may make him think twice.  PT is also short a skill, and IMO should get a legit and unique combat skill to help in raids/groups.

 

The Warriors, will do what they do.  PW and TW would do most of the damage, JW would do medevac, and TT would do hull repair.

 

I generally agree that there are classes that need improvement to be viable in a raid setting. 

[Kyp [LDEV]]

These skills work, ladies and germs, just the spam heal methods cause the behaviors you see. This is an internal problem with unnaturally high DPS on some of the mobs, most notably raid mobs. We're looking at ways to add new items and the missing skills that never made it in, but balance is a serious consideration and theres a large amount of math to complete first.

[Terrell [BT]]

Thank you Kyp.

[Tagaderm]

So far I haven't been involved in any raids during live, the few I participated in during some of the testing a while back weren't too hard and it didn't seem like heling was much of an issue.

 

Having said that, I've been a raid healer in other mainstream MMO's. In those the best strategies for main tank (MT) healing were direct heals as needed and a heal over time (HoT) pretty much maintained, I've barely played any healers in EnB, are there any HoTs? Spamming heals (not counting a heal chain as spamming as it spreads out the heals between multiple healers and is controlled and by it's nature an aggro management tool) has always grabbed agro from the mobs especially any group heal, also most other threat/hate/agro calculators not only counted the actual amount healed but also any overheal that occured if the healee wasn't low enough HP to need the full heal.

 

Now, like Kyp said there needs to be some balancing of mob damage to ensure that every healer in range isn't having to spam their largest heal but has there been any experimentation in heal styles? If so, what kind? From what I've read here it seems like most healers are using their highest level heals all the time but maybe I'm getting a wrong impression. I know as a past hardcore raider that figuring out what tactics to use in certain situations is part of the fun of the whole thing, maybe we just haven't found the optimal way to heal yet.

 

Do the deaggro abilities and taunts (are there any forced taunts?) work at lower level? In most other MMO's aggro managment abilities are downright unresistable by any mobs, especially raid mobs since that is where those abilities are actually needed, or if they aren't completely unresistable they have a better chance of landing then not by an appropriately leveled and geard player.

 

Anyways, just my two cents on the topic, really looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

[Shadinax2]

There are currently no HoTs in EnB, dont know if any are planned.

 

The issue for the tanks currently, is that 1) Enrage doesnt land on cl 60+ mobs but once in a GREAT while (being that this is the only skill with a direct referance to threat control, I must assume this is the skill we are supposed to be using for aggro control). 2) Shield sap (only viable for a PW meat shield) has a long cooldown and cant be used often enough to save the healers from 1 shield charge, let alone the dozen or so charges needed between cooldowns.

 

Solution that I have to assume is this: Raid REQUIRES at least 3 PW tanks, to cycle shield sap inbetween healer's shield charging, while having the healers keep themselves placed behind teh tanks, as far away as possible from the boss/encounter, with the exception of any TT healers, who would be closer to the boss/encounter than the other healers, while the TT's spam befriend an hope it sticks.

 

With the only skill that works like a forced taunt, being a heal, and it it only snap aggro for the duration of the heal (which is instant), it is highly unpredictable, no matter the level of communication and teamwork involved. If enrage did function as a forced taunt, and had it's resistance flip flopped (only resisted 5% of teh time, rather than landing 5% of the time), as well as a "forces target to attack that player for x number of seconds" then that in itself would something we can communicate and work with.

 

Now, like Kyp said there needs to be some balancing of mob damage to ensure that every healer in range isn't having to spam their largest heal but has there been any experimentation in heal styles? If so, what kind? From what I've read here it seems like most healers are using their highest level heals all the time but maybe I'm getting a wrong impression. I know as a past hardcore raider that figuring out what tactics to use in certain situations is part of the fun of the whole thing, maybe we just haven't found the optimal way to heal yet.

 

To answer this directly Tagaderm, the reason healers are using the highest level heal, is because there are 5 ranks of heals, a self only, one that heals less in combat, but can target others, a combat heal (single, non aoe heal), a minor area heal, and the maxed, improved area heal. The improved area heal heals for about 35-45k on the main target (lvl 9 shields have 100k+ cap), and about 20-30k on anyone else in range. The combat heal, even with maxed out skills, and a gaurdian device, will still only heal the primary target for about 15-20k TOPS. Considering most raid encounters hit the tanks (fully buffed at maxed out resistance and damage control caps) for about 40-60k PER SECOND, the tank cant get "spot heals" from healers and survive. I have used combat heal spam (it does generate less threat than the aoe heals), but it requires constant spam attention, cant multi task while doing it, and it has no interaction to the game. It feels like a wow encounter all over again.

 

The suggestions you posted are all good ones, and ones we've already tried, been trying them in a variety of ways, under differance ranges, xyz axis, combinations, etc. We recently did a healer rotation setup, where each healer would cast a rotation of heals: Of three healers, we did a rotation of this:

 

Healer 1: Combat heal

Healer 2: Imp AOE heal

Healer 3: Combat heal

 

Healer 1: Imp AOE heal

Healer 2: Combat heal

Healer 3: Imp AOE heal

 

 

And repeat that pattern. It worked for a little bit, when used at max ranges to the tank, but eventually the heal threat was enough to gain aggro on the mob, to which the tank would use shield sap to get aggro back, but only momentarily. Using a healer as a tank, sort of works, but eventually all the healers end up tanking, forcing the healers to be lvl 9 shield users, making the seeker the unwanted step child.

 

I, too, wanna see how this goes, and am trying my best to be able to learn how to control aggro (as a tank). I am losing faith that enrage works as intended (according to the tooltip on the skill, the rank 1 should be a force taunt - "Attempts to anger the target, causing it to attack you regardless of the situation").

[Tagaderm]

Thanks for taking the time to respond so thoroughly Shadinaxx! It really sounds like the largest problems are the mob dmg, which they admit and are working on and the ability of non-dmg/heal aggro managment to actually land. Hopefully they get this stuff sorted out.

 

I know in a couple of the games I've raided heavily in when there were balance issues the devs would sometimes join our raids and with their special dev tools be able to see all the info as it was happening, the taunts and damage and heals and de-aggro abilities and all that, be able to monitor how hard the tanks were being hit to see if it is in line with what is intended, that sort of thing. Or they would be there all invis and be able to use their tools to the same effect. I wonder if our devs could do something like that, or if they have been part of raids as they currently are. I've only just come back this past week after participating in the stress tests quite a while ago so I'm not sure how much actual dev involvement is happening in-game at the moment, I know I've seen a few folks in chat with the [DEV] tag but I don't know anything else.