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Healer Agro


Cosmo3

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Our guild did a controller raid this morning. There was no way to keep a healer alive. The way it was this morning is your healers become the main tank.  All I ask of the devs is they look at it and see if it is working the way they want it to. Five healers in 2 and a half groups and at least 3 of the healers died 15 times or more.

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I think this is a recent change.  I notice the same thing too, as my healer died several times last night.  A healer now enters the "Aggro matrix" when he heals anyone in his group that attacks the mob.  The question is:  Is it an intended behavior?

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It's tough to get healers to even want to participate in raids, as soon as a healer heals anyone, they instantly get smashed.  With enrage, befriend, hack and really any other skill along these lines not working well, (yes i've tested them, over and over and over) healers know they usually leave an encounter with dented gear and 200k debt.  When you get into the high end gear, last thing I want to do is lost 5% on expensive, hard to get items.

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It's tough to get healers to even want to participate in raids, as soon as a healer heals anyone, they instantly get smashed.  With enrage, befriend, hack and really any other skill along these lines not working well, (yes i've tested them, over and over and over) healers know they usually leave an encounter with dented gear and 200k debt.  When you get into the high end gear, last thing I want to do is lost 5% on expensive, hard to get items.

On the higher lv mobs abilities like, Befriend, Hack, Bio-Surpress. and Menace are nothing more than a skill point sink. You get a resist 95% of the time and do nothing more than waste your reactor. And yes I have tried them also.

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Are the psionic deflects on raid level mobs so high that if they were debuffed, skills would still mostly not work?  If so, perhaps that needs to be changed,  if not, TTs should bring Psionic debuffers to those raids where MASH tactics cannot be used due to the raid being in a Gravity Well.

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It is and should be, thats what skills like Befriend are for after all. It may be a bit much, and if we find it to be we'll adjust appropriately.

No Kyp, it is not right at all, i nearly died last night in Ant with a full group on one of the K bosses, the leader needed healing, and as soon as i did, the agro was on me only, untill the boss died.

 

This is not how it should be, the TT's role is very important in a group, and if this is not looked into properly, then how are we expected to get rare items from raid etc.

 

It's not like it was in old live, and needs ajusting big time please look into it again.

 

Thank You.

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Are you saying that as soon as the healer gets the aggro it never leaves them until the mob or the healer is dead?  I think that the healer in most (if not all the other games I have played) gets the mobs aggro as soon as a heal is thrown.  In fact some games you don't even need to be in the group to get aggro if you fire off a heal.  But ... saying that... the aggro should be able to be taken back away from the healer with more damage from other players with buffs/debuffs/skills used on that mob.  

 

 

Just my opinion and observations.  If a healer is marked for death in a raid I can see why it would be hard to get healers.

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I was there for the said Controller raid... When I would hit HP I would get instantly killed. The TS use to make a good HP'r, but in a serious raid he will get one shotted if he uses the skill. At least that's how it went for me. Four deaths in less than 10 minutes.

Edited by Sleven.
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I was in antares earlier today, I had a group TE, TT and JE. I started hitting one mob, started taking damage on the TE hit a heal and have 2 other supposed to be non aggro voltoi start targetting the TT, they held aggro and were never fired on. I have no problem with getting aggro on the healer, but not from mobs that are supposed to be non aggro and were never attacked, I know this has to do with the aggro changes because of the Mordana raids, but to me it shouldn't be this way.

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There are very many interesting and useful abilities available to the various different character types in Earth and Beyond. Most of them never get used at all because at the time when they really might become useful (ie vs high lvl mobs and in raids) they are ineffective and/or mark the user for instant  death. A lot of players don't even bother putting skill points into these abilities until everything else is maxed out.

An easy solution imo would be to change the way aggro works.

 

It seems that a mob will currently aggro on the player that has dealt the biggest blow and stay aggro'd until it detects a more punishing blow/effect that supercedes the previous one and then switches target. For example, the mob may start to aggro a PW to begin with that hits for 16k, aggro might then switch to a JE a couple of minutes later when a shield leech does 25k damage. Shortly after that the TT might draw aggro when they heal their buddy for 50k of health. Therefore once a suitably high lvl and buffed TT takes aggro by healing it isn't going shift anywhere else anytime soon. Against the top mobs in the game the TT will not survive this for long.

 

I suggest that the aggro gets reset after every time the mobs fires a gun. So let's say a Mob is aggro on the PW in a group because the PW opened fire. The mob will then fire on the PW. Aggro is now reset and will be decided just before the mob opens fire again by the following factors: 

 

1. Highest damage inflicted/(or equivalent heal effect on player etc) on mob since last time mob fired gun.

2. If no damage inflicted/effect used since last mob fired then mob fires upon player with highest sig.

3. In the event of highest sigs being equal between two or more players (quite likely as players strive towards what they percieve as "optimum" set up) then the player with the worst faction to the mob shall recieve the aggro.

 

Clearly if the mob is using a PL with a .5 sec reload then it may be desirable in such circumstance for the mob to reset its aggro once every 3 or 4 rounds fired as opposed to every one. This duration can be tweaked with each mob to get a desirable "balance". This will not nerf mobs, if the same player in a group is the overwhelming threat to the mob each time the mob resets aggro then aggro will likely return to that player, which is as it should be. Occasional leeching, healing and hacking may draw fire when used, and if used repeatedly will hold aggro for longer and possibly lead to death for the player! A single area shield RC will not however draw the agg for remainder of the enconter. 

 

This arrangement would mean that users of healing be punished, as would users of other class specific effects but they would not necessarily get instantly rubbed out as soon as they pressed the button. It would also likely lead to more widespread use of these abilities in the game, especially in raid scenarios.

 

 

I hope this provides at least some food for thought and perhaps along with some of the other useful suggestions on this forum lead to the right balance being arrived at.

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I was in antares earlier today, I had a group TE, TT and JE. I started hitting one mob, started taking damage on the TE hit a heal and have 2 other supposed to be non aggro voltoi start targetting the TT, they held aggro and were never fired on. I have no problem with getting aggro on the healer, but not from mobs that are supposed to be non aggro and were never attacked, I know this has to do with the aggro changes because of the Mordana raids, but to me it shouldn't be this way.

 

Same thing happened to my group 2 days ago.  Approach group of 2 deviants, a waft and tinge. Kill deviant #1, damage sustained, shoot on deviant #2 throw a heal on tank and then the healer takes aggro from the deviant and nearby tinge AND waft that were nearby and neutral seconds earlier and have yet to be shot.

 

Is this really working as intended?

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Don't Deviants have the ability to make other Voltoi agro on players?

Not that I have found, not until the heal was thrown.  Over the last 4 days I killed a lot of deviants right next to wisps, tinges and wafts with no aggro.  But things change here, maybe it is a new thing

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Actually Old Live (tm) thats what deviants did, they were about 1/3- 3/4 tougher in the shield department and had a tad more resistance than other volts of like lvl, and they were a aggro puller, they "sicced" other nearby volts on any player they saw, you could kite a deviant into a cluster of nonaggroed volts and they would all agro on you. Deviants also had hyper-vigilence, they saw farther than normal volts. Deviants were set to auto agro on everyone within range.

 

Deviants were sort of a anti-farming thing, if a area hadn't been farmed for a while, there weren't any deviants, but after you killed a few volts there was a ever increasing chance of a deviant spawning, they were there to "spice" things up :)

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Ok that may have been how old LIVE was, which to me means nothing here. The thing is I was attacking a Wisp. and a 2 wafts were doing the stare down feature on my toons, as soon as I popped a TT heal both wafts started firing on my TT and did not aggro any other chars until I of course started firing on them. The problem even in Gonzo's case had nothing to do with how it worked in old LIVE as the voltoi in question are just attacking teh healer and no other chars in the group. I am guessing this was implemented because if you were neutral or friends with the Mordana, the healer would never get aggro from the mobs, to me that is the reason you have good faction with certain NPC's to not get attacked by them until you lose such faction. So, I am guessing when other factions are added to the game at some point, there really is no point in being friendly with them unless you plan on doing missions for that specific faction or docking at there stations etc. etc.

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Ok that may have been how old LIVE was, which to me means nothing here. The thing is I was attacking a Wisp. and a 2 wafts were doing the stare down feature on my toons, as soon as I popped a TT heal both wafts started firing on my TT and did not aggro any other chars until I of course started firing on them. The problem even in Gonzo's case had nothing to do with how it worked in old LIVE as the voltoi in question are just attacking teh healer and no other chars in the group. I am guessing this was implemented because if you were neutral or friends with the Mordana, the healer would never get aggro from the mobs, to me that is the reason you have good faction with certain NPC's to not get attacked by them until you lose such faction. So, I am guessing when other factions are added to the game at some point, there really is no point in being friendly with them unless you plan on doing missions for that specific faction or docking at there stations etc. etc.

Oh yeh that agro you when they was neutral from a heal thing..that seems a bug. But my point was, Old Live (tm) the deviant got everything agro you, the others only got aggro you when you brought them near something another aggroed. If those other 2 werent aggroed you tank they shouldnt aggroed you from heal. UNLESS......you were back enough healing that you were the "bridge" to aggro, that your tank was near aggroing envelope of those other 2 and you were close enough to provide that envelope. But liek you discribe it that seems bugged.

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Got to tell you, from the extended gun battles I've read about and heard about in RL, very rarely do the medics get shot at by the agressor, it happens yes, but most times they are so busy dodging the medics sides bullets..they don't go out of the way to shoot said medic. Yes this isn't RL, but I'm telling you, if I was in combat...my target would be the guy shooting at ME, not the guy applying bandages and painkillers.

 

How about you? If a guy was coming at you with a weap, to do you bodily harm..are you dodging him or using what you had at hand to stop him from doing that harm...or are you concentrating on the guy with bandaids and gauze behind him? Me I got eyes on the sharp things. :)

 

Think heal agro needs to be toned down a bit....maybe a .5 agression rate would be more in line.

Edited by Mattsacre
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I just don't think there is any actual threat system in place.  I often case 1 or two heals in a group and then get beat on for the rest of the encounter regardless of how much damage or skills any of my other toons use.  There is not taunt skill (anger skill was kind of like this in Live) so its like damage is the only aggro and it does about 1/3rd the threat of a heal.

 

The whole threat system design. in place in many mmo's, is very complicated and takes a ton of testing and iteration to get working properly.  I think most people are seeing that with the EMU the threat system is either non-existent so rudimentary its just a joke.  I would recommend the devs actually implement a threat system that players can see via a /command.  You could then see what does/does not cause aggro and get feedback on what to tweak.  At the moment no player, and probably no tester, can even give accurate feedback without seeing the numbers.

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Problem is heals in this game are "Area" and not in group only... 

 

Aggro building is fine till it resets... Anger is not really currently an aggro skill (Forced target, etc.)

 

Most other MMO's using this like Amount of Aggro got by Healer  = Aggro of each player * heal amount / total amount of HP  * Number of players in aggro list .  Therefor 1 HP heal is not equal to 1 HP of hitting mob on other games...

 

Here heals are massive AND AREA... Easy to exploit, kill steal etc.

 

I think that's why devs went for the road of 'dropping aggro list altogether' on a single heal...

 

IMO, HP healed on Area healed should be divided to how many people healed for a healthy aggro building system and mobs should take into account healing amount vs. its hate amount when calculating aggro to healer.

 

OR

 

Area Healing should be permitted only to group/raid members... 

Edited by SiSL
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Problem is heals in this game are "Area" and not in group only... 

 

Aggro building is fine till it resets... Anger is not really currently an aggro skill (Forced target, etc.)

 

Most other MMO's using this like Amount of Aggro got by Healer  = Aggro of each player * heal amount / total amount of HP  * Number of players in aggro list .  Therefor 1 HP heal is not equal to 1 HP of hitting mob on other games...

 

Here heals are massive AND AREA... Easy to exploit, kill steal etc.

 

I think that's why devs went for the road of 'dropping aggro list altogether' on a single heal...

 

IMO, HP healed on Area healed should be divided to how many people healed for a healthy aggro building system and mobs should take into account healing amount vs. its hate amount when calculating aggro to healer.

 

OR

 

Area Healing should be permitted only to group/raid members... 

Here is the problem with area heal vs. agro and tank.

A tank may do lets say 40k dmg to a mob over a period of time. The healer hits area heal with the tank as target. The tank lets say gets 30k shield back....so if you just went 1 to 1, the tank should keep agro..but the dmg from the tank was dmg over time and the heal was a "spike" heal. At some point that dmg over time is segmented and the dmg done 30 sec ago isn't as angering as the heal 5 sec ago. There is some mystery algorithm that considers dmg vs time and agro isn't as pressing as dmg/heal current.

 

Now the second problem with area heal.

The Tank was the target of the heal and got 30k back, bet EVERYONE within range of that heal got a lesser heal, lets assume 15k for the moment. So you had a group of 6? thats 30k+(5*15k)= 105k worth of heal to compare towards that tanks 40k worth of dmg over time. Given the current heal agro dynamics is it any wonder the mob turns on the healer and won't be be distracted? Thats 105k of agro that a tank has to overcome somehow in a short time frame..and if the healer is getting killed it only gets worse if they heal again, they will NEVER lose agro until the mob is dead.

 

Want to make it worse? that was just the healers group that was calculated into the formula, the area heal, heals everyone within range....in or out of the group..what if another player or group of players was with in range of the heal? All that agro, under the current heal agro insanity, is poured onto the healers little head, how is a tank to counter that? Yes there is suppost to be enrage and other skills to regain agro..but is a one time hit of enrage( and other agro skills) equal to that 105k+ of heal...not at this time its not. And forget it if the healer heals for a second shot.

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I just don't think there is any actual threat system in place.  I often case 1 or two heals in a group and then get beat on for the rest of the encounter regardless of how much damage or skills any of my other toons use.  There is not taunt skill (anger skill was kind of like this in Live) so its like damage is the only aggro and it does about 1/3rd the threat of a heal.

 

The whole threat system design. in place in many mmo's, is very complicated and takes a ton of testing and iteration to get working properly.  I think most people are seeing that with the EMU the threat system is either non-existent so rudimentary its just a joke.  I would recommend the devs actually implement a threat system that players can see via a /command.  You could then see what does/does not cause aggro and get feedback on what to tweak.  At the moment no player, and probably no tester, can even give accurate feedback without seeing the numbers.

 

And you would be wholly incorrect; although, we did discuss this system during our meeting yesterday later on. The problem is HOW you heal, rather than that you do.. and the problem of "HOW" you heal is a result of number fudging on the developer side trying to make some mobs and such hard, when there were easier ways to go about it and/or address the problem.

 

The system isn't rudimentary at all, it just suffers from a flaw because it was assuming the developers who worked on this or that would stay within reasonable limits and some did not. The numbers the system is being fed, and the "chain heal" that you all must do as a result is what does you in.

 

I can't explain more without revealing how it works but expect some mobs to be adjusted to alleviate this, and try to analyze your healing pattern and the reasons you are healing. Chances are very high that if you're "spamming" a skill, something is out of whack on our side, I would appreciate a bug ticket in instances like these, especially if there's agreement from other players.

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Perhaps using the L5 version of the heal, and healing the tank solo would get less agro, but that also means that the L5 heal, on a maxed and buffed trader, heal enough shields to be worth lowering the level, as to not draw as much agro.  If a Trader uses L5 heal, and it's supposed to give X amount of healing multiplied by level, does it multiply X amount of healing by 5, on a maxed trader, or by 7?  Or by more if the trader has maxed skill and buffs to heal skill?

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Perhaps using the L5 version of the heal, and healing the tank solo would get less agro, but that also means that the L5 heal, on a maxed and buffed trader, heal enough shields to be worth lowering the level, as to not draw as much agro.  If a Trader uses L5 heal, and it's supposed to give X amount of healing multiplied by level, does it multiply X amount of healing by 5, on a maxed trader, or by 7?  Or by more if the trader has maxed skill and buffs to heal skill?

Indeed, actually, activatable skills should get bonus of max level of what players have...

 

Single heal should get heal portion of L7 one if player has L7 skill. 

 

Same with all other player skills who depends on increases like that...

Edited by SiSL
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