Even out Cargo size

[Raytan]

I have just been going through the character planer found here http://tun0.com/enb/ and seeing how I want to plan things out for ST4 and I noticed that with the exception of the Terran Enforcer and Terran Scout all archetypes (warrior, trader, explorer) have the exact same amount of cargo slots. The number of cargo slots looks like this at L135,

Explorer

Terrain 35

Jenquai 30

Progen 30

Warrior

Terrain 35

Jenquai 30

Progen 30

Trader

Terrain 40

Jenquai 40

Progen 40

I would propose that cargo space be based on Archetype rather then race and that these changes be made,

Explorer

Terrain 35

Jenquai 35 (+5)

Progen 35 (+5)

Warrior

Terrain 30 (-5)

Jenquai 30

Progen 30

Trader

Terrain 40

Jenquai 40

Progen 40

Im sure that some out there most especially the TE's would disagree with a change like this but it seems like the most logical way for it to be done to me, granted I may be biased seeing as I prefer to play Progen. That said how about something like this to appease the mass's.

Explorer

Terrain 35

Jenquai 35 (+5)

Progen 35 (+5)

Warrior

Terrain 35

Jenquai 35 (+5)

Progen 35 (+5)

Trader

Terrain 40

Jenquai 40

Progen 40

So anyway that's my suggestion for the day and if for some reason the character planer is wrong and all of what I just wrote is wrong and stupid then I am sorry for wasting everyone's time

[Moche]

the cargo sizes go back to the idea of race/class strengths and balancing, terrans are supposed to be all part trader so they get negotiate and larger cargo holds and the TT then is the absolute trader, the JE is the absolute explorer so you see explorer traits in all Jens, and the PW is the absolute warrior and we see warrior skills in all progen, what you point out that is usefull though is that the 2 new trader classes that were added have the same total cargo as the terran trader so i would propose that terrans should regain their cargo size crown and see the Jenquai and Progen traders both loose 5 slots to cap at 35.

[Satis]

the cargo sizes go back to the idea of race/class strengths and balancing, terrans are supposed to be all part trader so they get negotiate and larger cargo holds and the TT then is the absolute trader, the JE is the absolute explorer so you see explorer traits in all Jens, and the PW is the absolute warrior and we see warrior skills in all progen, what you point out that is usefull though is that the 2 new trader classes that were added have the same total cargo as the terran trader so i would propose that terrans should regain their cargo size crown and see the Jenquai and Progen traders both loose 5 slots to cap at 35.

I totaly agree with Moche.

As megan says in the character generator, the Terren Trader ship, is the ship with the most cargospace.

Kind regards

Satis

[Zap]

Why is it that people have to change anything?

Common let it be like in Live.

Don't change anything just cause someone wants it.

It is still EnB.

Us veterans don't want anything changed.

**Long Live EnB**

[Raytan]

Alright fair enough, but then if we are to stick to racial strengths then would you agree that the TS's hull should be reduced to be smaller then the PS's hull?

[Raytan]

But things already have changed with the addition of extra class's and zones and with other zones currently unavailable. And as a veteran of EnB I most certainly support change, and im not saying that things a bad the way they are only that they could be better which is ALWAYS the case with an MMO. Advocating no change in an MMO is foolish and will only lead to it's stagnation and eventual demise.

[mistergreen]

Whiners have been getting things changed in live. This is why there is a Bogril faction and section, as well as the Fish Bowl. They were put in at the end to shut people up and stop speculating on the upcoming shutdown.

[Zap]

I would like to see it as close to live as we can.

Som changes yes, but changing classes and hulls and stuff.

Common, it was made like this for a reason.

I chose to play a PW, less cargo space, but more punch.

I also made a TT for the purpose of holding ammo for my pw, and building/trading stuff.

It's to balance the game.

Let's just play the game and enjoy it as it is.

[Raytan]

Alright lets talk about balance for a second, what possible imbalance could be introduced by giving all archetypes equal cargo space with one another? If you can give me one good reason other then "that's they way it's always been" then a gold star for you my good man, and "non terrains would be equally good at trade runs" is not a good reason because all terrains still have negotiate and L9 engines making them superior at trade runs. Keeping things the same just because "that's the way it's always been" is a poor excuse for anything. You have to remember we have a totally new dev team that actually cares about this game and does not look at it as just another pay check so lets not be afraid to stir things up a bit and try something new and if it doesn't work out fine, that's what testing is for.

[bondct]

i dont agree with any of this... leave it all alone... why you ask...

all other debates aside, its just not worth the development time to code this for 5 slots here or 5 slots there... you are never more than 5 minutes from a bank at L150... so if u fill up go sell and look away from the monitor for a minute or maybe empty that snapple bottle under your desk that you have been filling up cuz u didnt want to get up and leave cooper for a second... with... well you know

[Raytan]

Well of course the dev's have better things to do right now, I don't expect anything in the suggestions forum will get looked as seriously for a long time to come. But eventually when everything is working in game they way it should be (at least for the most part) missing sectors re-opened, job terminals running, and major bugs taken care of then it will be time to start looking for things to add or change. For now the suggestions forum simply give people like me who have too much time on our hands a chance to vent in a semi constrictive manner and hope for the future of EnB.

[garblesoup]

Why is it that people have to change anything?

Common let it be like in Live.

Don't change anything just cause someone wants it.

It is still EnB.

Us veterans don't want anything changed.

**Long Live EnB**

So you are saying you also want the new classes dropped, too, right? Because they weren't in Live. Neither were lots of other cool things the team has put in since then.

I'm surprised to find that the other two trader classes have the same cargo cap as the TT, doesn't seem right to me.

[Terrell [BT]]

TBH if they are going to keep the TT with the biggest cargo hold, I'd rather see them leave the JT and PT's holds the same and make the TT's a little bigger than it currently is, rather than reducing the size of the JT and PT's holds. I don't, however, feel so strongly about this that I would oppose giving the Seeker & Privateer the same size holds as the Enforcer & Scout or even something inbetween the TE/TW and the TT in terms of cargo hold size.

[garblesoup]

TBH if they are going to keep the TT with the biggest cargo hold, I'd rather see them leave the JT and PT's holds the same and make the TT's a little bigger than it currently is, rather than reducing the size of the JT and PT's holds. I don't, however, feel so strongly about this that I would oppose giving the Seeker & Privateer the same size holds as the Enforcer & Scout or even something inbetween the TE/TW and the TT in terms of cargo hold size.

Yeah, it's not at all a big deal to me either - just surprised that the TT was no longer top dog. When creating a mule char it was always instantly assumed it would be a TT if only for the cargo size. I'm just happy the Team was able to implement the new chars - nerfing anybody's cargo caps (or upping the TT's) should be way down on any potential priority list IMO (and my primary is a TT!).

[Terrell [BT]]

Yeah, it's not at all a big deal to me either - just surprised that the TT was no longer top dog. When creating a mule char it was always instantly assumed it would be a TT if only for the cargo size. I'm just happy the Team was able to implement the new chars - nerfing anybody's cargo caps (or upping the TT's) should be way down on any potential priority list IMO (and my primary is a TT!).

On the mule char, depends on what all you want the mule to do. Mine is a JE, so if any toons on my primary account other than my JE need to get somewhere, they can go to the nearest weft, and be picked up.

[Zap]

U are forgetting that Westwood was gonna release those new classes man.

It was just EA that didn't release them.

Ea didn't release any of the stuff that was supposed to be released.

They didn't care at all.

Im not sure on what the new classes have, cause i have not tryed them.

But does the new traders have the same lvl of negotiation as TT?

But no matter people will disagree on stuff that some agree on.

So let Devs and Gm's decide what to do.

We only "use" what they have made to test and find buggs.

[Terrell [BT]]

The Privateer has Negotiate 5, the Seeker has Negotiate 7, but will soon change to L5 according to Marco's blog. JT and PT both have 4 builds, but JT is likely getting an additional build. (Marco's blog)

Seeker skills are currently (though subject to change)

Beam 9

Projectile 8

Cloak 5

Reactor Optimization 7

Psi Shield 7

Recharge Shields 7

Scan 5

Negotiate 7

Engine 8

Device 9

Reactor 9

Shield 8

Build Device 7

Build Engine 7

Build Weapon 7

Build Components 7

[garblesoup]

On the mule char, depends on what all you want the mule to do. Mine is a JE, so if any toons on my primary account other than my JE need to get somewhere, they can go to the nearest weft, and be picked up.

I come at it from the other way - since my primary is a JE he can take any of the other chars where they need to go (or go pick them up). Same slice of bread, just the other side.

[garblesoup]

The Privateer has Negotiate 5, the Seeker has Negotiate 7, but will soon change to L5 according to Marco's blog.

Was it ever established that L7 had any benefit over L6 of Negotiate? The description is vague and refers to additional job bonuses, IIRC. Hmmm, maybe before ST3 ends I'll log in and test - I have two TT's and one has L6 and the other L7.

Update: So I logged in to test out the value of Lvl 7 Negotiate and found it does provide benefit vs. Lvl 6. I took some Liquid Yunieon which is a high enough value item that the differences in Neg. lvl shouldn't be too obscured by rounding errors. It would appear that Negotiate Lvl 7 adds another 2 percent over base from Lvl 6 in the sell price to the vendor. Due to the wild differences in XP Levels between the characters involved I made no attempt to measure any potential XP gains.

Now, if this works, here's a simple spreadsheet showing 3 diff chars selling the same item to the same vendor at Negotiate lvls 0, 6, and 7:

Neg Price Diff Percent

0 39,215

6 45,881 6,666 17

7 46,665 7,450 19

More extensive testing would also have involved the purchase of equipment to verify if the 17 vs. 19 pct stands up there as well . . . but I was hungry and needed to address that.

[Terrell [BT]]

Was it ever established that L7 had any benefit over L6 of Negotiate? The description is vague and refers to additional job bonuses, IIRC. Hmmm, maybe before ST3 ends I'll log in and test - I have two TT's and one has L6 and the other L7.

I'm not certain, but I would expect that it should ultimately have some benefit over L6 Negotiate. More XP for missions does make sense, so does an increasing of the negotiation effects. (buy low, sell high, with Vendors and Terminals). JT's negotiate will be reduced to L5, so that means TT will be able to build for less than any other class, if they're the only class with Negotiate 7, and sell vendor trash for more money.

Edit: My primary is also a JE, but most of my other toons, except my mule char, and my TW are on the same account as my JE.

[bondct]

I come at it from the other way - since my primary is a JE he can take any of the other chars where they need to go (or go pick them up). Same slice of bread, just the other side.

but if your gonna butter both sides of the same piece of bread and you drop it, then what side does it fall on...

[garblesoup]

but if your gonna butter both sides of the same piece of bread and you drop it, then what side does it fall on...

On edge, of course.

[kyotds]

Not sure if it was mentioned already or not, but lets not forget how Hull size impacts combat.

Jenquai do not need as much space as they do not use Missles or Projectiles. so less hull space does not hurt them as much as the other classes.

Progen use Projectiles which usually stack high and take a while to go through.

Terran use Missles, which do not stack very high, and are often quickly consumed.

With my CL34 TE, i go through an entire hull of ammo, in about 30-40 minutes.

Then i have to fly all the way back to a station, rebuild/reload on ammo, and go back out.

I usually have about 5-6 empty slots when i go into combat, every other slot is Ammo.

I honestly feel the Hull size of any class that carries ammo should be increased, more specifically Terran. ;P

[bondct]

well actually some of the newer games there is no ammo... its just unlimited... if weapons are balanced across classes there really is no point in ammo... builders hate to make it... there is no money in it... no one likes to carry it around... and if weapons were balanced you might actually see some more interesting weapon layouts combining beams and missles and projectiles

[Moche]

not trying to be mean here dude but, play a progen and a terran to 150, spend plenty of time at the various weapon levels, they change drastically and terrans have it better than progens in most cases when it comes to ammo use rate.

there are a number of factors that come into play balancing a class, the terrans are all supposed to have larger hulls than the other races that is part of their trader herritage. i really don't feel like listing every 1 to 1 trade off for stat and ability but look at the classes, play them, get a feel for the game, they were pretty well balanced in live and their hull size was part of that.

the only reason that the new trader classes have the same hull as the TT is because no one has complained yet, the new classes were cut and pasted together with some known info and some guessed and are known to be incomplete, there have been pages and pages of ranting posts that use 6+ quotes and rebutals so that they are too anoying to read about balancing the new classes. it's just that they are incomplete and shouldn't be expected to be perfect yet.

i'm sure there is method to the development madness here but it boggles my mind that they try to do things like ballance income and ecconomy before half or better of the resources are in game. think about all those little random mob spawns, all the normal and hidden roid fields, the loot drop rates and quantities, the respawn rates on mobs and roids. there is so much that needs to be done before we are even at a point where complete arguments can be made about rebalancing the ecconomy much less the classes. at the moment it's probably safest to stick to the patterns we have from live to determine stats like hull size.