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Casual Building Dead ?

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[quote name='Rezwalker' timestamp='1354679431' post='67937']
If thats the case then there shouldn't be a problem, after lets say 100 builds of an item the formula says you can build 195%-200% with expected 200% and you get close to that span,
now its more like 170%-200% with expected 200% and you get 169% lol
[/quote]
You can get lower quality than indicated by the span? If this is intentional, I think it's very cool. Station managers distorting statistics to get more business.
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Now THAT ladies and gentlemen is a post which is a step in the right direction if you intend to convince us to consider changes.

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More that there was an examination of the math, and the chances, as well as comparing to earlier editions (in addition to a lil bit of 'bellyaching' as it were).

The formula is not as simple as some think it is, and it could probably be improved a bit, but it most definitely should work as we intend it to with a little bit of effort. Yes its expensive, yes in some ways that's a pain in the ass, but the current culture of instant gratification has gone a little too far.

A game is a series of interesting choices, as the famous Sid Meier once said. Without challenge (what's known as risk/reward) then the choices become meaningless or unimportant, and the game becomes boring. You must CHOOSE to invest your time and money to become a better builder, as well as being a trader if you want the best results.

I'm going to look back on our formula when I get home and get some other tasks outta the way and talk with the guys about it, but take this as my word "This [u]does not mean[/u] there will be a change, it means I will be considering ways in which we can make it work better."

(Although as I suspect someone will read this and theorize by 'work better' i mean make it harder, as they are so often wont to do, and go say bad things about me and the team on their private forums, but of course this is their own prerogatives.)

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1354769476' post='68132']A game is a series of interesting choices, as the famous Sid Meier once said. Without challenge (what's known as risk/reward) then the choices become meaningless or unimportant, and the game becomes boring. You must CHOOSE to invest your time and money to become a better builder, as well as being a trader if you want the best results.[/quote]

This is fine, for the most part, but the threshold of investment should be lower, at lower levels. Expecting a level 1-4 builder to make even a tiny fraction of the investment that a 5-9 builder might require is essentially just punishing new players for not having bank account of a 150. It also encourages the mindset that becoming a builder isn't WORTH the time and credit investment.

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[quote name='Crichton' timestamp='1354757063' post='68098']
If I am correct in my assessment of the goal there are a few ways to get around the negatives. The simplest would be to have gear get harder to make as it gets higher in level. So level 1 gear is fairly easy for even a level 2 builder to get above 175%-190%. But at level 2 gear this drops to 170%-185%. Level 3 165%-180%, etc. to counter this player made comps % increase should rise as the item level increases. At level 1 gear a 200% comp should effect the build quality by 3%, at level 2 by 6%, etc. This makes player made comps more worthwhile. Now I just pulled these numbers out of my back pocket but I have always found that making the game easy at the beginning and then ramping the difficulty as the player levels is better game design than applying a strict application across the board.
[/quote]


It is this way, despite many misinformations in this thread.

Here are some hard tested, proven numbers:


[b]Conditions:[/b]
Max Station-Faction (eg. home faction), PM Comps, no other "tweaks" (build helpers like devices, TC/Overrides etc).
This is a Terran Trader (gets build bonus, Jenquai do to btw). I post uncapped values (ingame it shows capped at 200%)

Build Skill Level:
1
Item Level to build:
1
Quality:
203% (Capped)



Build Skill Level:
2
Item Level to build:
1
Quality:
212%



Build Skill Level:
3
Item Level to build:
3
Quality:
168%



Build Skill Level:
4
Item Level to build:
3
Quality:
187%



Build Skill Level:
6
Item Level to build:
6
Quality:
148%



Build Skill Level:
7
Item Level to build:
6
Quality:
173%



Build Skill Level:
9
Item Level to build:
9
Quality:
145%


Level 9 with no experience at all and some other "factors":
188%

With experience easy to archive after 1-2 days:
206%


Note that there are items internally rated "easy", "normal" and "hard".
A "hard" item will come out [b]WAY[/b] lower in qualy without any experience than an "easy" item will come out.



As you see, the higher you get, the harder the qualy becomes.

Let me just tell you, that there are other factors that will [b]RAISE[/b] quality when you are serious about building and if you hit level 9 builds, these "other factors" are mostly likely raised to a level already, that you will build L9 gear very soon at 200% without problems.



[b]Bottom line:[/b]
Casual builders will [b]NOT[/b] get 200% right from the start and will not be able to build high quality gear as a casual builder quick/fast/soon.
[b]THIS IS INTENDED.[/b]

[b]Dedicated builders will be able to build 200% after a short time of dedication to that obsession/profession.[/b]

Thats all i want to add.
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Some builders today are noticing that when the terminal says 200%, they are still producing items at 194-196%. These are builders that have been at 200% for the last week including after the downtime on Tuesday. Some players are also reporting player ammo coming out at 195%. Is this an intended change that was recently added or a bug?

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[quote name='Zackman' timestamp='1354830060' post='68200']
Thats a bug, looking into it.
[/quote]

Thanks for the confirmation Zackman. Currently putting out the fires in guild chat with this. =P

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I too have been frustrated with the building in this game.  Playing both original and new live, I also built in both.  Yes, analyzing and building was a pain in original.  But, there was some predictability with it all.  Now, if you had lvl 6-7 build ability and went to build say a lvl3 or 4 shield, you got build quality in the 190+%.  Take the car repair example, yes, you need someone specialized to fix your ferrari, but when you are rebuilding a lawnmower engine, then you should expect pretty good results.

 

I think the bigger issue is that not enough people are investing the time to build, build, build as there really isn't a demand for it.  Now, if we had BOE items, that would change as you would constently needing new builds instead of sharing devices etc between toons. 

 

Yes yes, I'll hear the flames about that one but I personally would like to see an increased demand for builders.

 

Just my two cents

 

Spin

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I'm quite happy for builds to be difficult as it then rewards the people who spend time developing those skills - many of which are expensive or time-consuming.  But if there is a build-curve then I wish there was guidance from the devs explicitly stating what those factors are so we can work at them. Work=reward rather than mindless activity=frustration.

 

From what I can glean:

Obviously Build level

Station faction

Number of prints analysed - is that a percentage of devices, or shields or whatever, or is it all builds combined.  Do TTs have a build in advantage once they build lists across all of their skills. Or can a non-TT specialise in their build skills and get good?

Number of builds made - is it skill in a particular item, skill at a level, skill at devices or whatever?

Things like the matrix device that add to build skills.

Interface/Overrides - can we get these working again?

Grouping with other builder?

Rabbits foot?

Fingers crossed?

 

Do I bother stripping and rebuilding everything I loot to make a 200% DG possible, or do I just need to crack open 5-10 DGs and rebuild those?

 

I like to build, and I like to get 200% and I'm happy to devote credits and time to get what I want.  But I don't like wasting my limited time I have.  My advice is to either accept your own lousy quality, work on it, or cop out and go to our fave builders - props to Vaden, Magoo et al who support us in our hour of need.

 

(Its the same with Turbo - the average player(?) struggles to comprehend the various posts on the mystique of Turbo stacking.  Just let us know the math behind it.)

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i just want to add to this: not only is "casual" building not possible: neither is "casual" playing, as we cannot even get good low level equipment built.  the people who can build decent equipment charge such a ridiculous price, low level players cannot get them because they cannot afford them.  the whole game has become a "chore" to play, and is NO fun anymore

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i just want to add to this: not only is "casual" building not possible: neither is "casual" playing, as we cannot even get good low level equipment built.  the people who can build decent equipment charge such a ridiculous price, low level players cannot get them because they cannot afford them.  the whole game has become a "chore" to play, and is NO fun anymore

 

 

I completely disagree.   I only started playing about 2 weeks ago.  Prior to that I had only played the original demo for EnB when it came out.  I'm in no rush to get to high levels, haven't even joined a guild yet.  My highest level character is 28.  I've been a solo and casual player the whole time and I'm still having a blast playing.  Over the holidays perhaps I'll step it up a notch, might even be in the market for a nice laid back no pressure guild but I don't even begin to understand where you're coming from here.

 

Every game is what you make it.  I actually like this game because it doesn't hold your hand though everything like most of the current games do.  If I wanted a WoW experience I'd go play one of the many clones out there but I don't.  I want a game that has some challenge.  A game that takes a bit of thinking and effort to play.  I've said it before and I'll say it again because it's true.  If developers actually listened to every single complaint and suggestion that players made a game would consist of an opening movie, create a charater that looks cool, press one button to blow up everything and instantly level to max level, roll end credits and movie.

 

So the crafting is a little harder to do.  Doesn't break the game, just makes it more challenging.  I've yet to hear an exciting an memorable game play story about how everything worked out exactly like the player wanted.  No, all the best stories are about how a player tried and failed epicly or tried till he/she was almost to give up and at the last second succeded.  Just because a game is challenging and difficult does not make it broke, does not make it so it can't be played casually, does not make it a horrible game.  It just makes though who want to breeze though things complain.

 

Developers, keep doing what your doing.  This is the most fun I've had with a game in quite a long time.  Ignore the nay sayers.  Thanks for bringing back a great game and making it greater.

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i just want to add to this: not only is "casual" building not possible: neither is "casual" playing, as we cannot even get good low level equipment built.  the people who can build decent equipment charge such a ridiculous price, low level players cannot get them because they cannot afford them.  the whole game has become a "chore" to play, and is NO fun anymore

Oh man...so much wrong with this...."they can't get good level equipment built and they charge to much..." ,What was the vendor cost of the item? did they charge you way more than that? I bet not. Did you insist on "superior equiptment"? You do know that there is costs associated with that right? There are fail rates, and loss rates..and recipe gather and learn rates..and yes pain in their ass charges, their time is just as valuable as yours if not more so. So you should get something free becuase you desire it? You belong with those occupy wall street tards if you truely feel that way.

 

Let us surmise that I own a burger shop, and you, as a customer walk into my fine establishment. You decide that you find either my burger selection not to your liking, or the prices. You are perfectly within your rights to turn right back around and go find something more to your liking (might I suggest that french place around the corner...I hear Le 'Garbage serves a mean fecal souffle) :)

 

However, being ravinously hungry you decide that you will "settle" for one of my humble burgers, you make your selection, devour the culinary delight and then start with the complaints, "the price is to high, the spice was not right, the service was lacking, the grade of hamburger was not good enough, the selection was too limited etc etc." You know what? there is the door, feel free to find something more to your liking (of course after you settle your tab) elsewere, and also feel free to not darken my doorway again as well.

 

So how did I arrive at my burger price?..well lets see:

1.there is the material cost, how much do I have to pay the butcher, the baker, the gardener, the condiment manufacturer.

2.there is the location costs, how much do i have to pay the land lord, the gas company, the power company, the health department, the licensing fees, the water company etc..

3.there are the government goons, what taxes do I owe to keep all the government entities off my back (city,county,state and federal)

4.there are the labor costs, you know, those people that brought that burger to you, and cooked it, and preped all the ingredients that went into its assembly, and the dishwasher, they all seem to want some money for their time and efforts also.

5.don't forget my marketing team, they want to get paid also, they thought up all those wiz bang tunes and eye catching ads to gain your attention enough to come into my burger joint.

6.oh wait lets not forget, I'm not just plunking a burger in your hands, there are dishes and forks and chairs and tables, and yes since I'm a nice guy, you CAN use the reastroom.

7.did I mention those government guys? guess what, they don't stop at just taxes and fees, they want me to pay workmen's comp, and social security, and welfare and make sure there is insurance for all those employees and retirement/pension, oh and yes insurance for people who might slip and fall (both employees and customers). hey the firemarshal wants his cut to see that the place isn't a fire trap.....

8.I'm sure there a some things I have forgotten.....OhYeh! the reason I go through all this hassle...PROFIT...yup..I want money, you know the kids going to need braces and the missus says she will just die if she can't get her hair/nails done...that too all costs money, and greedy bastard that I am, I must insist, this is not a charity, YOU will pay for that which you consume...Iz gotz billz.

 

How does this apply to the game you ask? You wanted "superior gear" and wanted it free. It's a "chore" for you to pay for that which you consume and isn't fun when not handed to you. Why not figure what they have to do to bring you that superior burger...err gear, and think that maybe they don't want to finance your free ride, it's not "fun" for them to do so either.

 

But what do I know? thats just my opinion, don't mind me, another burger lover thats hungry just walked in.....and Iz gotz billz.  :)

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I did not say i wanted superior/free gear.  you guys are all great at reading things into what people say.  and as always you missed the real reason for my post.

therefore I withdraw my statement . don't plan on posting ever again.  will play the game without helping anyone (and I do know alot about the game).  then i won't have to put up with you guys misinterpreting things i say.

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I did not say i wanted superior/free gear.  you guys are all great at reading things into what people say.  and as always you missed the real reason for my post.

therefore I withdraw my statement . don't plan on posting ever again.  will play the game without helping anyone (and I do know alot about the game).  then i won't have to put up with you guys misinterpreting things i say.

Wow I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry. I mean it! Don't take the radical reaction that your never going to post again and will never offer a idea via forums because I seemed too harsh. I didn't mean to flame you specificly, it's just a general reaction to your post..we hear it all to often, as to reading into what you said, re-examine what you said:...

 

"we cannot even get good low level equipment built. the people who can build decent equipment charge such a ridiculous price, low level players cannot get them because they cannot afford them. the whole game has become a "chore" to play, and is NO fun anymore" .

 

That seems concise, perhaps you didn't mean exactly what you said and I riffed off it...sorry. Truely.

 

But my response was a reaction to all those folks that complain about builders charging too much, or they can't get a build were or when they want it, or the quality they want etc. etc. if folks walked in the builders shoes for a moment they wouldn't make those complaints.

 

EXAMPLE:

The builder not only has to get the recipe (from loot they camped some mob for, perhaps a few hours to up to months) then pay the costs and risks at the terminal to learn the recipe, of which there is all too often a failure (ho hum back to camping that mob we go). OR if its a vendor item, pay the inflated vendor cost of the item and then risk that same possible failure and terminal costs...if you fail you got to buy the item once again from the vendor...and once again risk failure and terminal costs, as many times as it takes to learn it.

 

THEN you have to do all that agian to learn the NEXT level of the item :s

 

After all that, to build it, some of the items have loot only parts, so you have to rip another one again (here we go to camp that mob once again!) and pray that when you get back and rip the item that the part comes out....(oh good..for a change I got it first try! hooray!) now you have to analize THAT part...(booo! I failed...crap..back to that mob again! >.<)

 

So now you have scanned the recipe, got the loot part to rip out.and can finally build it all! and the terminal tells you that you have a build chance of 170%-200% (most likely lower but lets go with optimal here)..oh wait need the ores from a miner to build that loot part..so you play the market for the ores...need ore X in quantities Y!....hellooo,,,,,helloooo...no miners on?!.. (2 hr wait..) oh good!

 

So now you have the part, the recipe, that damnable 170%-200% build rate, you can now build it....... if you dare.

 

Along comes Bob the player and he tells the market that he WTB item X, oh good...a customer!...so now you rush pell mell to were ever you both can meet..and you tell him that the terminal charges N amount and the parts cost Y amount, and the build range is 170-200% and Bob says sure..I want it, I want it! and you press the button...CRAP 170%! (if you didn't get that fluke 168% the terminal spits out now and then).."so Bob...you want a 170% item x?" No?!? well then I got to rip it and hope not to lose a part...crap..lost a part...oh good it wasn't the loot only part..."say Bob..we are going to need a part from a sector over...would you be good enough to go get it.?...this other guy wants some ammo...I can builld it while you go get the part"

 

So Bob wends his way there and back with the part, and you plug it all in and once again pay all the costs to the terminal (did I mention that to hope for better quality you rebuilt all the parts? and you failed on one of the part rips..but lucky for you, you had a spare to rip from, add that cost into the factor)...now it says 175%-200%..why didn't i rebuild the parts the first time :/? well it comes out at 194% and Bob gruggingly excepts that..but why isn't it 200%? (he says he can't wait anymore and don't want to go for another part so *sigh* 194% will have to do)

 

So you juggle the numbers and count the costs of ALL the terminal tries (thats 2 build of item x, the rip of that crappy 170% cost, the rip of the parts, don't forget that one you failed so that one was x2( remember to charge them..that was YOUR extra part btw), the rebuild costs of all the parts so they was 200%)  then the costs of the beginning parts (it would have been so much easier if Bob had brought his own btw) so you arrive at what it ACTUALLY cost ..not your PROFIT but what your out of your OWN pocket!

 

And what does Bob say? Holy crap! I didn't know it would cost me that much! For a lousy 194%? You are RIPPING ME OFF! Your greedy! I don't have that much right now....can I pay you later at least?!? (you note to Bob the whiner that after all that, you STILL came in under what a vendor would cost him and note its better..remember it's now 194%! 0.o), so he manages to get a guildy to loan him some credits and pay you.

 

Note in that scenerio (it happens all too often btw..ask a builder) that:

A. they paid COST...no profit to you, no tip, no payment for all the time and effort from you playing you took to help them.

B. you didn't make them pay for all the time and fails you took even LEARNING the recipe...or the loot part, or the ore you needed that miner to sell you to make the part (yeh i forgot that and just remembered)

C. you didn't come out ahead at all on the deal, it's not going to pay for you to learn any NEW recipes or to EXPAND you inventory, and for all your EFFORT you got maligned!

 

So, whats in it? Love of building and the game.

 

For all you folks that think your getting ripped off, consider all that above. Did YOU go to all that effort when you posted a WTB? no? Then pay the bill and shut up, the builder always tells you the button costs, thats not all they are out of pocket. when you bring the parts that you can, it helps enormously...if they ask for a bit more than the button costs it's not ripping you off.

 

They had all that above to contend with and any more you give them will help them learn more recipes and improve their abilities, they will have a expanded recipe list and be help others get the gear they need with wider choices. If you can afford a tip..DO, most especially since they went out of their way to help you, when they didn't even have to lift a finger. I can assure you, dedicated builders will put anything you can spare to good use, it will either benefit you directly or later on when you or a alt. needs a build, or it's just a pay it forward thing.

 

And always remember, have fFUN, be gracious, smiles and thank you's are free! :)

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Amen. In live building was never a purely charitible activity. I always built for cost for guild and friends but even they almost always tipped because it was understood that building took considerable time, effort and money. It has been nice being able to bring parts to f7 any time of the day or night and count on someone being there to assemble for free, butt it was NEVER even remotely like that in live. Now that the credit is not completely worthless we can and should expect to pay for others time and effort.

On a side note, does this remind anyone of a certain country's economy? Don't take my food stamps bro! :P people do love free stuff and if they are getting free stuff they will naturally be upset when they have to start paying.

P.s. I realize the complaint is the difficulty of building, my point is that if 200% is near automatic, it takes away from that part of the game and the economy in general.

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I am surprised to see complaints about pricing for pm items as I have so far never been asked to pay more than button cost myself (have a couple of 100+ toons and always tip 50-100%). Of course if you want a rare/difficult, prebuilt to HQ item then you will have to fork up the dough, which is perfectly fine considering the circumstances (see Matts post).

 

There's already lots of players building low level stuff without charging so I don't really see where this "it's too expensive" attitude is coming from.

 

Getting someone to build the specific item you are looking for can be difficult though, as prints are still scarce, we have players split between timezones and most importantly, many players are still busy hunting for exp/items/credits themselves.

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overall i think making it a requirement to specialize is not a bad idea at all,

it might make it so that us small time builders who might specialize in a certain

thing are relevant somewhat.

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Having been a Master Artisan and later multi-faceted crafter on SWG over the course of 8 years gathering resources and grind grind grind to get that capped armor, attachment, food/drink, ship parts,  and weapons crafting ability that only really became "common" near the second half of the games lifespan (seriously, it took 3-4 years before people were regularly hitting caps and vendor/marketing them as bundle packs), this crafting system is a breeze guys.

 

Compare to the LOTRO system as well, that sucker is a literal nightmare.

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Here is a suggestion that may help not only the economy but also the builders.  How about a vendor to sell player made wares? The countless < 200% that are either vendor fodder or ripped down to get a fraction of what was put into it (at 100% which could be way less than a 200% component).

 

I am or would be happy with less than 200% equipment at least until I hit 150.  Until then I outgrow equipment to fast to even worry about 200%.

 

Seems like a win win win to me...Well possibly a loose to the devs that would need to code it.... but hey!  :)

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Well, you don't want people to be able to profit from building for vendors, because it would quickly become the new trade run and mess with the game dynamic. Is there a boost to vendor price when you sell something of higher quality? Seems like that might mitigate losses if you build something and the quality isn't as good as you wanted, but for some reason you don't want to rip and re-build.

Also, about the whole PM price thing. This is a COMPLETE non-issue. If people are charging too much for items, they'll price themselves out of the market. That portion of the game economy is completely in player hands and will work itself out like real economies do. (Of course, unless you want us to regulate the economy so we'll all need M.B.A.'s to figure out what the price of flax seed is.)

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Well, you don't want people to be able to profit from building for vendors, because it would quickly become the new trade run and mess with the game dynamic. Is there a boost to vendor price when you sell something of higher quality? Seems like that might mitigate losses if you build something and the quality isn't as good as you wanted, but for some reason you don't want to rip and re-build.

Also, about the whole PM price thing. This is a COMPLETE non-issue. If people are charging too much for items, they'll price themselves out of the market. That portion of the game economy is completely in player hands and will work itself out like real economies do. (Of course, unless you want us to regulate the economy so we'll all need M.B.A.'s to figure out what the price of flax seed is.)

I have played other games that have a consignment vendor.  You get a % of the asking price (set by the builder) when put in the consignor.  When the item is sold, the builder gets the asking price less a vendor charge.  If after x amount of time the item is returned to the builder with a debit of the amount given initially from their account.  It seems to me that this would help even out some of the prices or even make the builders either have a price war (non builders win) or come to an established price for goods.  

 

Another bonus is you don't need be on at the same time as a particular builder.

 

A possible draw back is the builder that buys up all the available builds and replaces them with his/her builds to inflate the price 

 

Not to make this a wall of text but Kyp did say it is based on some reality.  And what is more real than going to your local Circle K to buy that used Uzi? 

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