Casual Building Dead ?

[efialtis]

I applaud the refinements that went into the building aspect of the game. This is a crucial part of the economy we hope to achieve in live as opposed to everyone having everything, equipment wise, and swim in a ton of credits.

It is a credit sink, we asked for those many times.
It is a way to stimulate the economy by involving most classes in the process.
Miners have a role. Component makers have a mission. Builders have a calling.
Its for the benefit of every Multi-Player game to get people involved with each other.
Its the component for the dedicated builder (eg Vaden/Magoo/Lannister) versus the occasional (eg Efialtis lol).

I guess its true we were spoiled by STs/Beta but we will adapt, the mentality will adapt.

[totteswede]

[quote name='Stanig' timestamp='1354006886' post='67333']
And thats what a lot of people complaining seem to be asking for, perfect builds on newbie toons, not going to happen.
[/quote]

Sorry, but that's not what's being asked for at all (at least from my side ).

I am pretty sure most agree it's a good thing that hilevel items (L6-9) are difficult to build and require time, effort and dedication. It was like that in the Original game and it adds a lot of "endgame" by itself and a healthier economy with interacting between classes (miner-trader-builder).

At lower levels it's a different ballpark though. If newer players are to be enticed to pick up building we don't want the threshold to be insurpassable. Not everyone will have their "pocket trader" for compbuilding and basically noone will have the "experience" of thousands of builds under their belt.

I was just hoping you would see the potential issue and look at the scaling of the parameters at lower levels.

[Shaddex]

I still cant see what the big issue is.

I currently have lvl4 ML's / Shield / reactor / Engine and I really dont care that they are not 200%.
150% + is fine with me.. It doesnt effect my enjoyment of the game one bit.
200% would be nice, but Im not willing to part with the creds to get them.
You dont have low level equipment for long so it doesnt matter.. (to me)

[Phorlaug[IS]]

The only reason I would say that a 200% item would be needed is in "End Game" stuff level 8 & 9, where its quality
will go down because of combat damage.

At lower levels it would be nice BUT not necessary for an item you will upgrade at your next XP level.
If you GOT to have the 200% L6 item you should have to pay for a multi-build / dismanteling equal to the terminal cost
+ 10% (time is Money). Ask any RPG Terran.

As far as Casual building dead? Yes I see it that way for now, for my build for myself including. But when you get to the Rare looted end game items there will be high demand for 200% and with it the high cost for same. (I hope).

I suggest grouping with the Builder(s) to see their % pop up in the chat interface. We all know (most of us) that the build quality on the second try could actually go down. So it comes down too what are you willing to pay, what % is exceptible and where will the economy level off and when?

[GenghisBob]

The only thing that I noticed that seems different lhan live is that I get, say, 162% - 168% range. I seem to remember a larger range in live, like, 158% - 187%. Although I not sure which I will prefer in the long run.

But, a question on what goes into the build quality. There is your build level vs the level of the item you are building + faction at said station + number of prints? + number of actual builds?

Number of prints, is that total prints or in that category (ie. shields, projectiles, etc)? ______________
Number of actual builds. By category or overall and does that include ammo? _______________

Thanks.

[Canman]

I would like to challenge the DEV/GM's to join every guild during prime time and just ask how people think of whats going on with they game. Instead of trying to correct our thinking try listening to what people think. Maybe we can understand what the DEV's are thinking a little better with some one on one time. Statements like "working as intended" in a reply on my last post really helps no one. It sends the message that the DEV's are done listening and even talking. If that's the case say so and we will stop trying as well. There is a small minority here that post over and over about a hardcore economy and auctions meanwhile its making most upset and ready to give up.

A casual economy is not a bad thing and would be great for them game. Being forced into a hardcore one will kill it.

I was told I can be harsh and even rude on my posts so I will do my best to end this one on a good note so maybe people will see I mean no personal offense with my passion for this game.

Puppy's, Sunsets over water, Football game, New Car Smell, Wining the Lotto, Sorry cant thinking of anything else good to say and its getting weird. End!

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Hi guys,

This was a bug. It has been fixed.

Let me ask you all this one:

Is a live studio going to listen and not fix a bug because the players like a flawed result? (PROTIP: Correct answer is 'No.'). You have to understand that you point out that some of us are abrupt with you, that's just my nature as a person. You can take it how you want, but i'm direct and don't believe in beating around the bush.

That being said, keeping something like this ongoing is quite stressful, especially for someone that works on it as much as Zackman and I, or Stanig and some of the others. Our original 'baseline' idea was to try to return to live, then FIX what once went wrong. (Paging Dr. Beckett..)

I'm personally sorry that you all feel this way, but if its a bug it is going to be fixed, and then we will balance it as appropriate once the bug is fixed, although that may not be immediate. The economy was completely broken before the live patch and the last wipe. This is why everyone was just building for tips and so on, it was too easy to make stuff at 200% and too easy to make a lot of money, not to mention all the problems resulting from 'hulkfest'. I even know there are some guilds that talk about me and some of the other devs out there, but I don't take that personally. I understand your frustrations; however, I won't produce a less than quality game because people have gotten used to a bug in the system.

I will however come in game and chat with the guilds some night soon, as someone suggested.

[totteswede]

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1354066263' post='67379']
and then we will balance it as appropriate once the bug is fixed
[/quote]

This was why I posted in the first place, not because you fixed a bug. I love what you're doing with the game and merely try to put forward my opinions of possible improvements.

The big changes to building that went in with Live (untested by the masses ?) might need some tweaking, which is my reason for bringing it up. I certainly didn't mean to rain on anyones parade

/Totte

[underhill]

In my mind, it's likely some people are probably fixed on '200% or nothing' as that's what they've been used to (not just in this game - but many of the other crafting systems in other games are binary - ie either craft something with a fixed stat (i.e. 100%) or don't craft it at all. EnB now gives crafters something else to aim for - i.e. quality percentage. The argument of 'casual' vs 'hardcore' rages in every game and it's impossible to solve. People that invest more time in anything achieve better results. Making it a level playing field for someone that has 2 hours vs someone with a whole day of playing is extremely hard to do. It's not to say 'ignore the casuals' or 'make it harder for the hardcore' - it's a challenge that all Devs rise to but we need to all recognise that it's a really difficult objective to succeed in delivering. Let's not jump to conclusions that one / other person or class of persons is being ignored?

I think it's great that there's now something for builders to aim for rather than crafting being pretty much a perfect 200% all the time. The tweaking, no doubt, is to work out how much 'learning/practice' needs to be performed to make a casual builder into a master craftsman. In the same way that 'not everyone can heal well, or DPS or tank' - now we have the opportunity for builders to specialise and differentiate themselves. I think this gives another dimension to the game that was lacking...in beta there was no game economy, there was no differerence between chars in beta as everyone had more than enough credits and everyone had pretty much the best gear.

Does it need tweaking - yes, most likely it does but that's part of the design challenge and we will need to give the Devs enough space to tinker with the game. They don't have the resources of a large game design team which is able to roll out beta tests or public forums and discussion groups at will. In my view, the last thing we want to do is create a fear culture in our Devs that every little change (bug fix or not) will have the ''public'' up in arms. I sometimes think if we all had a little more patience (we've all been waiting since 2004!) it would really help to keep things cheerful and proportionate.

[DarkkHero]

I think it's working great right now.

I have been monitoring players who build alot, verse the casual crafters.
They produce 200% more often than not, due to the crafting mechanics.

They have been trying to get every recipe they can; spending hours crafting for others, working on faction.
Do they always build 200%? No, but that's ok. That's the challenge of the hunt.

I have been crafting ALOT on my play toon, and I understand it can be frustrating striving for 200% when you have limited funds.
But that's healthy. It stimulates the market. 9 times out of 10, customers who want me to craft something are perfectly fine with less than 200%.

Just as you have to gain experience to level, you in-turn need crafting experience to gain better results.

[Harros]

I think the crafting system is fine. As someone who has taken the time and money to "practice" builds, I am now at 200% build at lv7 with all vendor parts. I know a few others in my guild who spent much of their time so far building for people are at the same place. Player made comps easily push us to 200% at lv8 and 190%+ and lv9. I'm also pretty sure we haven't even maxed out our gains yet. It's not as bad as you all make it out to be. Understand you won't be making 200% while leveling and deal with 150% or get it made by someone else. Then when you reach max level and have a steady income, invest in improving your build skills.

[Cosmo3]

I really dont care how hard they make building as long as there is a reasonable way to improve it to at least a mid 190s build after building and adding builds to your list.

[rodsmith3510]

I agree i think it's working just fine. It's just not good to get it handed to you on a plate. You need to work for it. Plus like the other have said this give us a goal to shoot for to be the best builders out there.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

Iirc, recently the update said the terminal controllers are working? If you come across one don't vender it or destroy it. I could be mistaken.

[Stanig[IS]]

[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1354126337' post='67406']
Iirc, recently the update said the terminal controllers are working? If you come across one don't vender it or destroy it. I could be mistaken.
[/quote]

Last I heard the terminal controllers should be working, yes. No one has reported otherwise, but we are watching the tracker in case something goes wrong.

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='Matsu' timestamp='1354118887' post='67400']
I really dont care how hard they make building as long as there is a reasonable way to improve it to at least a mid 190s build after building and adding builds to your list.
[/quote]

I agree here, as long as I can eventually reach it through prints, and builds, I'm cool with it.

[JoeTheDestroyer]

[quote name='Darkk' timestamp='1354111754' post='67395']
Just as you have to gain experience to level, you in-turn need crafting experience to gain better results.
[/quote]

I am gaining experience, otherwise why am I spending all this time slogging through Trade levels?

The warrior classes can use their abilities/weapons to their fullest extent as soon as they upgrade the skill level. They don't have to fire their guns some number of times or try a number of different weapons in order to fully use their abilities (except insofar as that increases CL).

It's inconsistent to expect builders to first increase build skill (via TL), then increase some nebulous "craft" experience in order to fully use their abilities.

However, I understand that this was a game mechanic from live (origins), so it's unlikely that it will be removed. I just can't accept arguments like the above for why it makes sense.

---

That aside, my main problem with this is the lack of transparency. All I know right now is that to increase my build quality I'm supposed to "build more" and "get more prints". Beyond that I, and pretty much everyone else, am shooting in the dark. How many things do I have to build to get a noticeable effect? Does the level or base cost of the item matter? If I were told how much "craft" experience I earned for these actions, I could figure this stuff out myself. However, the only indicator I have is the quality % in the build screen which is too granular and relies on too many changing variables for me to devise a reliable experiment.

Although it would be nice to have exact formulas, I would settle for just having rough numbers. To get a 10% increase in build quality, do I have to build 1,000 items? 10,000?

In comparison, a warrior knows exactly how much xp they earn from a given kill [i]because the game tells them[/i]. They know how many levels they need to improve their abilities [i]because it's right there on the skill screen[/i]. They can easily estimate which mobs to kill to get them there most efficiently. Edited November 29, 2012 by JoeTheDestroyer

[Terrell [BT]]

A little more information on this couldn't hurt. Would be nice to know if my JT's building Components & Reactors now, albeit only to L5 so far, will help her later with other build types that I don't intend to level until after 150. By building components, I'm aware that PM comps help quality in the builds in which they use, but do they also help in terms of experience building in so far as improving quality chances for future builds of things that aren't comps? That would be nice to know. Other toons that will build as well would like to know this.

As far as I understand right now build quality is affected by all of the following:
[list=1]
[*]Faction with owners of station where build is being done

[*]Number of recipes (prints) on the character doing the building

[*]Total number of previous builds by character

[*]Matrix devices, (or similar) Terminal controllers/overrides (if you have them)

[*]Level of item being built

[*]Build Skill
[/list]
Is this list exhaustive, or is there more to it? Also how strict are those requirements on recipes & previous builds? Do they affect all builds, builds in category (ie Reactors, devices, etc), level of builds in category, specific items built? I think that may help a bit to lay that out a little more clearly. Personally I do like the ideas behind rewarding hardcore building, relative to casual building, particuarily given the time & credits invested in getting the requesite prints.

Also do these variables affect analyze/dismantle chance?

[Deslok]

Here we run into the prolem that even in Live no one actually knew the formula that the server used to compute quality, other than dev. Generally we don't know this type of information with certainty in games. Builders had theories formulated after much trial and error. And most 200% builders kept their methods secret to keep the credits flowing. All games have sinks. Not knowing creates a time and credit sink for builders that otherwise wouldn't be there.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

[quote name='JoeTheDestroyer' timestamp='1354220439' post='67473']
I am gaining experience, otherwise why am I spending all this time slogging through Trade levels?

The warrior classes can use their abilities/weapons to their fullest extent as soon as they upgrade the skill level. They don't have to fire their guns some number of times or try a number of different weapons in order to fully use their abilities (except insofar as that increases CL).

It's inconsistent to expect builders to first increase build skill (via TL), then increase some nebulous "craft" experience in order to fully use their abilities.

However, I understand that this was a game mechanic from live (origins), so it's unlikely that it will be removed. I just can't accept arguments like the above for why it makes sense.

---

That aside, my main problem with this is the lack of transparency. All I know right now is that to increase my build quality I'm supposed to "build more" and "get more prints". Beyond that I, and pretty much everyone else, am shooting in the dark. How many things do I have to build to get a noticeable effect? Does the level or base cost of the item matter? If I were told how much "craft" experience I earned for these actions, I could figure this stuff out myself. However, the only indicator I have is the quality % in the build screen which is too granular and relies on too many changing variables for me to devise a reliable experiment.

Although it would be nice to have exact formulas, I would settle for just having rough numbers. To get a 10% increase in build quality, do I have to build 1,000 items? 10,000?

In comparison, a warrior knows exactly how much xp they earn from a given kill [i]because the game tells them[/i]. They know how many levels they need to improve their abilities [i]because it's right there on the skill screen[/i]. They can easily estimate which mobs to kill to get them there most efficiently.
[/quote]

How about this argument? Guns don't require ingenuity or skill really, you just point and pull the trigger. Sure some people are better shots than others in the real world, but that's because of a lot of practice. (Oh wait! )
With a starship, or fighter jet, you rely on computer systems to target and fire generally. This is why this makes sense.

The system takes into account how many recipes you've learned versus how many times you build an item overall, and your faction with the station's faction as a seed value for the equation, but that's about as much as I'm willing to reveal there.

[JoeTheDestroyer]

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1354241904' post='67488']
How about this argument? Guns don't require ingenuity or skill really, you just point and pull the trigger. Sure some people are better shots than others in the real world, but that's because of a lot of practice. (Oh wait! )
With a starship, or fighter jet, you rely on computer systems to target and fire generally. This is why this makes sense.
[/quote]
I guess I didn't make my point well enough. My point was that real world analogies are irrelevant. The mechanism under discussion is inconsistent with other systems [i]within the game[/i].

However, if you really want to be more consistent with the real world, then the TL requirements on build skills need to be removed. After all, what does hauling cargo and trading have to do with manufacturing skill?

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1354241904' post='67488']
The system takes into account how many recipes you've learned versus how many times you build an item overall, and your faction with the station's faction as a seed value for the equation
[/quote]
I suppose that you're being willing to atleast talk about it is better than nothing, but I'm still pretty much dead in the water. Without knowing a ballpark figure to get an effect, I can't know if a failure to notice a change is due to not building enough or building the wrong thing. And in the meantime, I can't play the game (the whole point) for fear of influencing the experiment.

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1354241904' post='67488']
but that's about as much as I'm willing to reveal there.
[/quote]
I just don't understand the coy attitude. I'm not asking for inside or detailed information, just a level equivalent to what we know about, say, the combat system.

To be clear, I don't mean this as a personal attack, it seems to be a general attitude and not just in this game. People just seem to start getting elitist when the topic of crafting comes up.

[Stanig[IS]]

How about this one... we dont want to reveal specific mechanics so people can just exploit the hell out of the system somehow? You know, sort of like back when people used fishbowl to powerlevel baby toons because of bad mob AI and cloak exploits and farrrr too much ammo component level 9 stacks dropping or things of that nature.


Example... lets say the building bonuses were based on your total builds over the life of your toon. Again I am not saying this is how it even works, so dont take this as a hint.

Say someone learned that, and then spent the whole day building stacks of level 1 components so their level 9 builds then took the percent bonus from all of those level 1 crafts into account <---- this should never happen. And thats the sort of reason internal mechanics are never revealed in detail.

[JoeTheDestroyer]

[quote name='Stanig' timestamp='1354247861' post='67490']
How about this one... we dont want to reveal specific mechanics so people can just exploit the hell out of the system somehow? ...
[/quote]
This is the security-through-obscurity argument. Ask Microsoft how well that works...

If you take this argument to its logical conclusion, then you shouldn't tell the players anything. You should keep weapon damages, shield/hull strengths, enemy health, xp earned, even levels secret. If you did that then it would have been much harder to find the exploit you mentioned... It's also utterly ridiculous. Who want's to play a game where you have no feedback on how well you're doing? (to quote Kyp, oh wait!)

Besides, it would probably take about five minutes for someone to post about such a glaring flaw at which point you can fix it. By obscuring all the details you're simply making it more likely that such bugs will go unfixed, and that the few who learn about them will exploit them for an unfair advantage.

To be sure, I fully understand that you guys have to be careful, since we are live now and you can't wipe if something goes awry.

---

Anyways, I think I've wandered well off-topic so my apologies to the OP. And I don't want to waste any more of the Dev's time arguing about something they clearly don't want to change. I'll just end by saying that I agree with the OP that the recent bug-fix has exposed what I consider a balance issue with low level crafting. Edited November 30, 2012 by JoeTheDestroyer

[Kyp [LDEV]]

[quote name='JoeTheDestroyer' timestamp='1354246880' post='67489']
I guess I didn't make my point well enough. My point was that real world analogies are irrelevant. The mechanism under discussion is inconsistent with other systems [i]within the game[/i].

However, if you really want to be more consistent with the real world, then the TL requirements on build skills need to be removed. After all, what does hauling cargo and trading have to do with manufacturing skill?


I suppose that you're being willing to atleast talk about it is better than nothing, but I'm still pretty much dead in the water. Without knowing a ballpark figure to get an effect, I can't know if a failure to notice a change is due to not building enough or building the wrong thing. And in the meantime, I can't play the game (the whole point) for fear of influencing the experiment.


I just don't understand the coy attitude. I'm not asking for inside or detailed information, just a level equivalent to what we know about, say, the combat system.

To be clear, I don't mean this as a personal attack, it seems to be a general attitude and not just in this game. People just seem to start getting elitist when the topic of crafting comes up.
[/quote]

Why would a real world analogy be irrelevant exactly? This is a game based on the future of humanity. That being said, hauling cargo and trading teaches one to negotiate which is a vital skill for any manufacturer who is also the retailer. There aren't a lot of instances of this in large corporations, but definitely in small one-man shops, which you are in effect.

I don't understand how this makes you 'dead in the water'. You can still play and enjoy, you just can't min/max building skills because you don't know the formulae involved. This is something you will have to learn through experimentation and time. This 'feature' was part of the same building mechanics were in live that were never revealed to the player base.

The coy attitude is the prerogative of a game developer. No game developer that I have [b]ever[/b] seen reveals all the formulas inside the game as this removes the challenge of playing and learning for yourself. We want to make the game fun for the most people, and many people prefer a little bit of challenge. Most folks don't want everything handed to them, now note, I don't think this is your case honestly, but I don't understand the desire to have it handed to you or to be given more than you have. They didn't reveal this information during the live game at all, even less so than we have, so what's the difference here?

We cannot change much about what the client displays, and you're not actually gaining skill points as it were. The only things we could reveal would cause the formula to become clear to the people who are playing which would devalue the efforts and challenge. This is the reason why, and no, we probably won't be changing it without a really good reason.

[Shaddex]

small point..

we don't tell you how to do raids. you have to work it out.
we don't tell you where all game navs are. you have to work it out.
we don't tell you where all missions are. you have to work it out.
we don't tell you spawn timers. you have to work it out.

we don't tell you how to build 200%.

guess what.....

you have to work it out.


all the above plus more, are kept with the dev team as revealing them to the public would seriously kill the game. work out the game systems, compare results, read the forums.