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Healer Agro Adjustment Needed?


Klyde

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[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1353870394' post='67133']
As I was pointing out before (and stanig is seeing in his testing) that aggro meter isn't taking cumulative into account, mob AI needs a more than 1 sec. memory. Agro meters are doing a 1 sec. by 1 sec. comparison and saying heal is top of aggro list attack healer.

As stanig was saying before that however, attack healer so they can get to tank second....A.I. is A.rtificial I.ntelligence, the mobs aren't meant to all think like us, some should be real dumb (in our thinking) and some should be bizarre (in our thinking) and some should be rational (in our thinking). I would say the humanoid types (RD,Chavez,free spacers etc.) would have a more "rational" behaviour from our standpoint and yes maybe have a higher POed from heal logi, but some of the drones etc. should have a more eccentric agro list, some, maybe heal shouldn't mean a single thing, others higher threshold from heals etc.
[/quote]

Agreed, Biologicals should not see Healer aggression as a threat. Kill the Shooter
RD, Chevez and other humanoid ship drivers should have the rational thinking A.I.. Attack the Healer.

If a healer is spamming heals, he/she will maintain the aggression. Unless
A Debuff Threat/Aggro could be calculated to an amount 3 times that of a warrior's threat/Aggro.
Add the Warriors Weapons DPS PLUS The Debuff threat It should come out to be pretty close to the Aggression of a healers spamming.

The Healer could still grab the Aggression if he/she constantly leans on that heal button.
These numbers will be off i'm sure But, any warrior or Healer can grab the aggro if they break the highest Damage/Heal totals from any ONE player.

For an example.
[color=#00ff00]Single Healer[/color], Heals 25,000 units every 3 seconds = 50,000 Heal/DPS every 6 seconds
[color=#00ff00]Single Warrior[/color], Weapons DPS 20,000 Every 6 seconds + Debuff (This example) L5 Chimaera's Fell Rile -30 Plasma resist. The -30 could be calculated as (-30)3 x 20,000 DPS = 60,000. Per activation

Healer .DPS, 50,000
Warrior DPS.60,000
If you don't break this threshold, The Warrior holds aggro

[color=#ff0000]Healer. DPS 75,000[/color]
Warrior DPS 60,000
[color=#ff0000]Healer Dies[/color]

There isn't a cool down (like for our skills) for device activation because, the energy use is more of a concern for the character/player, it teaches you to make a change.
If you want to spam your Item Debuff to hold aggro, go ahead, you'll be out of energy and unable to fire or escape.
If there was a cool down for devices, It would be far far more difficult to get back the aggro with a healer spamming.

Heres something for the DEVs to consider.
Add an additional 2 times aggro threat to a PW's Combat Trance on top of the totals.
And similar to the other warrior classes. (Did I just say that?) But I think there is already.

Tip: Damage or Heal aggression can be mitagated between 2 or more healers and/or Warriors, making fighting the NPC Mob groups a little easier.
Tip: Don't spam your heals un-necessarily
Tip: You'll get more XP killing two npc of lower level in the same amount of time than killing the Tough one thats making your day/night a mess
Tip: Ask for some asistance from a guild mate OR establish an out of guild alliance. And make it worth their while. You'd be surprised how far a low level low aggro heal would go at the right moment.
Tip/Hint: The activation of cloak stops the firing of all weapons, Get a JE in your group with Group Cloak if things get to tough.
Back in the day, there have been a few times where a JEs group Cloak has saved our ass.

:D , I know easy for me to say, I'm not a healer.
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In a way Phorlaug your right about the spamming of Heals, because if you do so you will retain aggro. But, take this example, let's say the main tank in the FB gets down to 25% shields, the healer hits him with max shield recharge, now the healer gets aggro from the whole group of mobs. The healer will be dead if one the tank doesn't get aggro back before the next volley comes in or if you have two healers and the other healer heals so that healer gets aggro atleast one of those healers will be dead quickly, especially when its Gobb, his minions or the controller as the healers won't be able to warp away from the fight. To me I don't see a way around not spam healing in either situation especially in a raid situation unless you go back to the old FB raid way of doing things as in leaving the healers in the background along with the JD's and just pull the tanks back before they die, thats if it's left the way it is. On a side note to that, the mobs have to have a tether on them, as it sits right now they don't seem to have one as they will follow whoever has aggro all over the sectors or in the FB, unless this issue has been fixed that is.
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I want to use Weapon DPS and Heal Dps to mean Aggression (Aggro)

I don't know how they have the Heal total set, it they are set to calculate total heals of/for all group members.

What I'm trying to say is if a healer is spamming area shield recharge the total could be:
5 x 15,000 = 75,000 aggro on the Heal-o-Meter
Sure its great when you don't have to watch ALL of your group members just spam area recharge, BUT

If the healer were to just concentraite on the Tank hitting him with a recharge of 35,000 DPS on the Heal-o-Meter, I don't know if thats how its working now
but it would seem logical that the healer would not out DPS the tank with a single target recharge.

With the tank shooting away and hitting a Debuff every 6 seconds, The Healers Duel/rotating heals, energy consumption will be high.
A well built group of a Player/Char doing Menace, Hacks when things get too close for comfort and everyone else doing Energy Drains, Energy transfers and Optimasations.

IMO a Menace that hits. it should wipe all aggro to zero.
The very next DPS going out should be the Tank after the Menace or Hack Breaks. Hopefully the Recharges have all gone out and everyone has rebuffed.
This will all happen at a blinding speed like never before.

No more are the days where you shoot, heal, debuff and lean on the heal button with one hand and drink a cup of coffee with the other.
Its game on Baby!
Do your chores, walk the dog, take out the garbage, do your home work. Then when you sit down with your alternate personality, it has your full attention and concentration.
And Truthfully I don't know what My JDs role is going to play in the new scheme of things, we will see.

I tell you what DEVs I like my Energy Drain. EEK ! I wonder what that'll be on the Aggro-O-Meter. :)
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So I finally got my PP to a level where he can go out and play. Today he was shield healing my TW while I was fighting and notice he could rip aggro from me with no effort. I could be attacking the mob, which is at half health and after one heal, my PP would get attacked instantly. I played a TT on raids live and remember sitting in the middle of the fish bowl spamming heals and healing an entire raid and not ripping aggro like that. Is this working as intended or is there tweaking to come? Edited by Dakynos
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I am still wondering if any adjustment has been made to cloak and threat reduction. In Live I do not think that cloak removed all threat but it at least dropped it a bit. Maybe 50%? EG: if a JD pulled threat from a tank, via dps, skill use, or device activation they could cloak and give the tank a second or two to use their aggro skills. When the JD then uncloaked the JD was not instantly re-targeted until they overtook the tank's threat again. This was a balancing act that tanks and Jen had to learn how to deal with. There should be some reduction of threat when cloaking and this should be applied to all classes that can cloak and for the group cloak skill towards all classes.

EMU Devs rock! Edited by Crichton
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Yea, i have been trying to grab back the aggro as a JD hitting my Chim and Energy leech, After my healer hits me and cloaks.

After all this I have not been able to get the npc to continue its assault on my Warrior JD after my healer comes out of cloak. I have not had any success yet. I'll keep trying.

JD Level 52. JS level 35.
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[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1354563156' post='67847']
Yea, i have been trying to grab back the aggro as a JD hitting my Chim and Energy leech, After my healer hits me and cloaks.
[/quote]

Might try having your JD use Psi-Shield on your JS. I know that is supposed to generate a decent amount of threat (it did in Live).
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Here some ancedotal info:
Me CL24 PP with only L2 heal. Mob (non paired) L28 research vessel in grissom.
Second player PW Stingkiller (didn't notice his CL or OL.)

I had mob 1 (3/4) dead and just tipping into hull, and mob 2 outside agro range and NOT agroed on me (i.e. not following me nor shooting).
Stingkiller began on his mob, I finished up and was watching him, he had the mob 1/2 health when I self healed (i.e. not area heal, only tier 2 of heal and healing ME not stingkiller).
The mob INSTANTLY turned 180 degrees and started towards me and when it reached range got 1 shot off before Stingkiller regained agro, by my estimate 4-5 sec.

Note the conditions: I'm not a target of mob..0 agro, Stingkiller WAS agroed target (mob 1/2 dead), I hit a self heal, (with less in total heal than the mob had taken in damage from PW) and that mob switched to me from a non-grouped player, nonbuffed by me.

Does that not indicate a broken behaviour?
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Well the truth is the player base isnt large enough to force people too group so in turn you are forcing us to mulitibox or spend what little time some of us have to play looking for a group to get nothing done cause now its time to log off . As for aggro skills LOL LOL they dont work i can spam enrage an the mobs LOL at me debuffing with rada used to anger mobs not anymore all the damage in the world isnt pulling aggro off a healer an once they heal you all they can do from that point on in the fight is spam heal themself there for creating more aggro its no fun an by the way it dont matter if your dual boxing or not healing aggro Is WAY off the charts .
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[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1354773352' post='68159']
Here some ancedotal info:
Me CL24 PP with only L2 heal. Mob (non paired) L28 research vessel in grissom.
Second player PW Stingkiller (didn't notice his CL or OL.)

I had mob 1 (3/4) dead and just tipping into hull, and mob 2 outside agro range and NOT agroed on me (i.e. not following me nor shooting).
Stingkiller began on his mob, I finished up and was watching him, he had the mob 1/2 health when I self healed (i.e. not area heal, only tier 2 of heal and healing ME not stingkiller).
The mob INSTANTLY turned 180 degrees and started towards me and when it reached range got 1 shot off before Stingkiller regained agro, by my estimate 4-5 sec.

Note the conditions: I'm not a target of mob..0 agro, Stingkiller WAS agroed target (mob 1/2 dead), I hit a self heal, (with less in total heal than the mob had taken in damage from PW) and that mob switched to me from a non-grouped player, nonbuffed by me.

Does that not indicate a broken behaviour?
[/quote]

Sounds pretty broke to me <_<
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That does seem broken - that said, if heal aggro is that over the top and it's reasonable for heals to aggro a lot, maybe we need to make healers more durable and let them take care of the tanking. Run a spider tank between the healers and let them juggle aggro between each other. Tell the bruisers to just focus on max DPS, they won't be attacked anyways.
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Hm as said earlier in the thread, I personally went out with a group of players and monitored their aggro vs some mobs. I forwarded my conclusions to Zack and he told me he had made some adjustments. I am unsure whether those changes are on the live server now, but if they are, we might need another data sample to see the difference, if any.
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I have a question.. which heal is being used to determine balance? Are you saying that one use of level 7 recharge shields should draw some aggro, or level 5? Or are you just making it ANY level of recharge shields gets you aggro?
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Can't speak for others but I think that if you heal another player, then those mobs who are angry at the other player, and can see you heal them, should have some chance of getting angry with you. How much should vary based on the level of heal, and the mob's stats on alturism, aggressiveness, and bravery.
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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1354907555' post='68343']
Can't speak for others but I think that if you heal another player, then those mobs who are angry at the other player, and can see you heal them, should have some chance of getting angry with you.
[/quote]

If it is just that, a CHANCE, then that's fine. That would imply that you will incur a certain amount of threat/hate with engaged mobs when you use a heal skill. It also implies that if the character that is currently holding aggro is generating enough threat themselves, that the mob would essentially ignore the healer, because they have not generated enough threat to actually steal aggro. [u]This is how it should be[/u]. This is the balance of being a skilled healer player, being able to keep people alive without stealing aggro.

Some of the language I've seen used in this thread seems to imply that using a healing skill should gain you aggro, at least for a couple seconds. This does two things: 1) discourages players from becoming skilled at playing healers, because it simply doesn't matter, and 2) discourages players from becoming skilled at playing tanks, because it simply doesn't matter. If this is how you want things to be, you may as well thematically change the characters, because the warriors wont be the tanks anymore. Give the build skills to the warriors, and hull damage control etc to the traders, so they can actually make a decent showing of being tanks.

EDIT: In the case of overhealing, I think it's totally fine to generate very large amounts of threat, and steal the aggro. Say if you're using a level 7 shield recharge to heal one toon that's only down by a couple hundred shield cap, yeah, you earned aggro with that.
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[quote name='Yuritau' timestamp='1354928187' post='68370']
If it is just that, a CHANCE, then that's fine. That would imply that you will incur a certain amount of threat/hate with engaged mobs when you use a heal skill. It also implies that if the character that is currently holding aggro is generating enough threat themselves, that the mob would essentially ignore the healer, because they have not generated enough threat to actually steal aggro. [u]This is how it should be[/u]. This is the balance of being a skilled healer player, being able to keep people alive without stealing aggro.

Some of the language I've seen used in this thread seems to imply that using a healing skill should gain you aggro, at least for a couple seconds. This does two things: 1) discourages players from becoming skilled at playing healers, because it simply doesn't matter, and 2) discourages players from becoming skilled at playing tanks, because it simply doesn't matter. If this is how you want things to be, you may as well thematically change the characters, because the warriors wont be the tanks anymore. Give the build skills to the warriors, and hull damage control etc to the traders, so they can actually make a decent showing of being tanks.

EDIT: In the case of overhealing, I think it's totally fine to generate very large amounts of threat, and steal the aggro. Say if you're using a level 7 shield recharge to heal one toon that's only down by a couple hundred shield cap, yeah, you earned aggro with that.
[/quote]

Looks like we're pretty much in agreement.
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[quote name='Yuritau' timestamp='1354928187' post='68370']
If it is just that, a CHANCE, then that's fine. That would imply that you will incur a certain amount of threat/hate with engaged mobs when you use a heal skill. It also implies that if the character that is currently holding aggro is generating enough threat themselves, that the mob would essentially ignore the healer, because they have not generated enough threat to actually steal aggro. [u]This is how it should be[/u]. This is the balance of being a skilled healer player, being able to keep people alive without stealing aggro.

Some of the language I've seen used in this thread seems to imply that using a healing skill should gain you aggro, at least for a couple seconds. This does two things: 1) discourages players from becoming skilled at playing healers, because it simply doesn't matter, and 2) discourages players from becoming skilled at playing tanks, because it simply doesn't matter. If this is how you want things to be, you may as well thematically change the characters, because the warriors wont be the tanks anymore. Give the build skills to the warriors, and hull damage control etc to the traders, so they can actually make a decent showing of being tanks.

EDIT: In the case of overhealing, I think it's totally fine to generate very large amounts of threat, and steal the aggro. Say if you're using a level 7 shield recharge to heal one toon that's only down by a couple hundred shield cap, yeah, you earned aggro with that.
[/quote]

Awesome post i feel the same way . The way the healing aggro works Atm from what i have been seeing a heal is like a taunt in the fact that 1 heal produces all the hate the dps has built up an adds to it . like it is now 1 heal means the healer can do nothing but spam heal them self therefor non stop threat building . Might i ask that the resist chance % of enraged be looked at with it failing more often than working makes it tough to even count on it as a violable option for threat at least an the lower end i think im at lvl 3 an it's resisted a lot .Maybe remove the resist chance all together an put like a 10sec CD on it so it cant just be spammed just a thought . Edited by Grips
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  • 1 month later...

Posted this on the other thread,

There are very many interesting and useful abilities available to the various different character types in Earth and Beyond. Most of them never get used at all because at the time when they really might become useful (ie vs high lvl mobs and in raids) they are ineffective and/or mark the user for instant  death. A lot of players don't even bother putting skill points into these abilities until everything else is maxed out.

An easy solution imo would be to change the way aggro works.

 

It seems that a mob will currently aggro on the player that has dealt the biggest blow and stay aggro'd until it detects a more punishing blow/effect that supercedes the previous one and then switches target. For example, the mob may start to aggro a PW to begin with that hits for 16k, aggro might then switch to a JE a couple of minutes later when a shield leech does 25k damage. Shortly after that the TT might draw aggro when they heal their buddy for 50k of health. Therefore once a suitably high lvl and buffed TT takes aggro by healing it isn't going shift anywhere else anytime soon. Against the top mobs in the game the TT will not survive this for long.

 

I suggest that the aggro gets reset after every time the mobs fires a gun. So let's say a Mob is aggro on the PW in a group because the PW opened fire. The mob will then fire on the PW. Aggro is now reset and will be decided just before the mob opens fire again by the following factors: 

 

1. Highest damage inflicted/(or equivalent heal effect on player etc) on mob since last time mob fired gun.

2. If no damage inflicted/effect used since last mob fired then mob fires upon player with highest sig.

3. In the event of highest sigs being equal between two or more players (quite likely as players strive towards what they percieve as "optimum" set up) then the player with the worst faction to the mob shall recieve the aggro.

 

Clearly if the mob is using a PL with a .5 sec reload then it may be desirable in such circumstance for the mob to reset its aggro once every 3 or 4 rounds fired as opposed to every one. This duration can be tweaked with each mob to get a desirable "balance". This will not nerf mobs, if the same player in a group is the overwhelming threat to the mob each time the mob resets aggro then aggro will likely return to that player, which is as it should be. Occasional leeching, healing and hacking may draw fire when used, and if used repeatedly will hold aggro for longer and possibly lead to death for the player! A single area shield RC will not however draw the agg for remainder of the enconter. 

 

This arrangement would mean that users of healing be punished, as would users of other class specific effects but they would not necessarily get instantly rubbed out as soon as they pressed the button. It would also likely lead to more widespread use of these abilities in the game, especially in raid scenarios.

 

 

I hope this provides at least some food for thought and perhaps along with some of the other useful suggestions on this forum lead to the right balance being arrived at.

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