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Healer Agro Adjustment Needed?


Klyde

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I realize this was just implemented, but is it possible an adjustment is needed to the level of agro that is generated by a healer casting a heal? It seems extreme at this point, and most likely to be worse at higher levels, or in a raid environment.

As a combat healer all through live, I don't remember the agro levels being this severe with the exception of a couple of raids.

Just a thought.

Klyde
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Its actually low even.

The healer will add the amount of heal to mob aggro.

A comparison (max level and max weapons):
A JD (or PW..whatever) is doing a DPS of 15-20K (depends on crit).

A healer will hit for 57K heal at max level.
So the healer will have the aggro like 2-3 seconds, than the damager of the group re-aggros.
Remember, MOB reload is 3-6s mostly, so the healer will get 1-2 shots.

I dont think this is too much aggro in any way?


Remember, its all about tactic: have a PW throwing ENRAGE or a JE doing a shieldleech will draw the aggro back almost instantly.


For low level heals its like this:
Heal amount 90 Pt.

PW in group of same level (eg. PL Level 3):
3 Weapon slot, 9-10 DPS per slot: 30 Pt./s

So after 3s the PW got aggro again.


You see, its actually very balanced.
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Thanks for the explanation Zack. :)

It may be due to my memory being fuzzy after 10 years, but I just don't remember all mobs in the area deciding to go after the healer after one heal is cast. Time will tell, but GoBB and other raids are gonna be interesting to say the least. :P
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Klyde I was not like this in live after reading your post i try some thing , KIlling mods 2 cl lower then me on my pw i had mobs from 5 k out agro on my healer these had no agro on any in my group. In the larger raids this is not going to work out for the healer at all. I am not trying to piss off any of the Dev. Also I didn't put agro off when you have 4 Mods on you healer and he needs to keep healing him self.



Wait
Static Guild
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Skitszomm I under stand what you are saying but the frist time a tt heals all the agro turn back to the tt and to Terrell I am sorry I dont know what you are talking about Mash Tactics. Also from 5k out any mob that are not agro on your healer will agro on him.


Wait
Static Guild
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[quote name='Wait' timestamp='1353268572' post='66503']
Skitszomm I under stand what you are saying but the frist time a tt heals all the agro turn back to the tt and to Terrell I am sorry I dont know what you are talking about Mash Tactics. Also from 5k out any mob that are not agro on your healer will agro on him.


Wait
Static Guild
[/quote]

TT/JW in every group as the hospital. JW = MedEvac, TT = doctor. Mob gets too close to hospital, JW moves hospital, summons TT. Sacrifices JW's firepower, saves TT from getting shot up.
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This may be one way to make the raids tougher, before the wipe we had it good.
IMHO, I say leave it as is for a while, if not indefinately. We will adapt.
If a PW, JD or a TE can't get the aggression back then adjust the warrior aggro.
I noticed a fair amount of aggression after I hit them with a Plasma Debuff.
We the Warriors should be able to get back the aggro., by any means possible. We will adapt.

But then again I'm not a healer so I don't know how bad the Heals aggro is, But the NPC and Raids should be tough.
Just say'in.
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For raids i see that as being ok. For group leveling? A bit too much. Example PW shoots 1 skuttle bug, nothing aggroed on PP...PP throws 1 heal on self, and 5 mobs (including the PW target) aggro PP. Was not like this in live until mordana raids which pretty much 1 shot TT's and made people adjust groups to include a rez'er(JE) and aditional healer (TT). I don't want an easy ride leveling so to speak as i do like challenges, however nothing should group taunt agro to a healer the way 1 non group self heal does now, that's just not right when you do not have all the lvl 150 skills or lvl 8/9 gear the way you do when you raid. just my opinion :)
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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1353267566' post='66495']
You can also get around it with MASH tactics.
[/quote]

MASH tactics will work evertwhere but the Controller, and GoBB, both of these are in grav wells. Pulling the warrior out for heals is easy, him getting back into the fight before the rest of the group is dead will be the supreme challenge. ;)
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[quote name='Taallonn' timestamp='1353464709' post='66679']
For raids i see that as being ok. For group leveling? A bit too much. Example PW shoots 1 skuttle bug, nothing aggroed on PP...PP throws 1 heal on self, and 5 mobs (including the PW target) aggro PP. Was not like this in live until mordana raids which pretty much 1 shot TT's and made people adjust groups to include a rez'er(JE) and aditional healer (TT). I don't want an easy ride leveling so to speak as i do like challenges, however nothing should group taunt agro to a healer the way 1 non group self heal does now, that's just not right when you do not have all the lvl 150 skills or lvl 8/9 gear the way you do when you raid. just my opinion :)
[/quote]

Tallonn--- I could not have said this any better.
Red------- it was a self heal that argo mob out at 5k not a group heal had 4 mobs argo when the tt heal the pw after that the rest of the time tt heal him self pull argo back off the pw and back on the tt.
Terrell---- thank you got in now works great in the fish bowl GOBB and Control so so.


Wait
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[quote name='Klyde' timestamp='1353465108' post='66685']
MASH tactics will work evertwhere but the Controller, and GoBB, both of these are in grav wells. Pulling the warrior out for heals is easy, him getting back into the fight before the rest of the group is dead will be the supreme challenge. ;)
[/quote]

2 JDs. One doing added DPS and Regroup the other doing Medivac.
Come on, Challenge ? Pfft...
We will over come, we will adapt. The mix of groups will be different than the norm.
We can talk about the tactic's in guild chat. :)
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From what OP said etc there is a problem, how zack explained it that doen't seem unreasonable, the problem seems to be that heal should not be a agro/offensive inducing skill unless it's done to aid someone that is agroed, then you are buffing/healing THEIR enemy (the tank) and should have a angering effect and should have a chance of gaining their ire.

If the mobs are in a neutral state to you normaly or even friend, why would you standing in a bunch of them, hitting heal, have any angering effect? How ever, if you heal another player that has aggroed one or more of them, then yes, there should be a agro check roll.

But his example was: there was several mobs in a area, the PW had agroed 1 (ONE) of the mobs, the TT hadn't agroed ANY of the mobs let alone the one the PW had, the TT SELF healed, and then all the mobs in 5k aggroed on him. They were in a neutral status to him before that point, what action on his part should have gained a agro? Even if he had healed the PW, the only aggro at that point he should have had to roll against was the 1 (ONE) mob the PW had angered at that point, not the other 4 allied that hadn't seen him yet.

Under current conditions, in a raid or leveling situation, a healer hitting a area heal counts per zacks example: as a 57k hit agro to EVERY mob angered by ANY player with ANY agro no matter how far or near those angered mob(s) may be, the player healed may not even be in your group, may not even be seen by your group, you may inadvertantly heal a cloaked player with some agro and gain his targets ire.

I would understand having to roll a agro resist roll for anything within the area of effect of area heal, or even against another players target if you heal them, have to roll a resist roll, but if you have a low sig, and the mob can;t see you, and is outside the AoE of your area heal, you shouldn't gain the agro of all players healeds agro.

Under your example, say a JD agroed a pair of mobs, teleported one away and concentrated on one, you as a healer healed the JD, the other mob certainly was outside the AoE, and with your low sig couldn't see you, so how would he know who healed the JD and who to attack for that heal? You should not gain that agro from that other mo,. currently you do.

I don't know how they could do it, but in reality, accumilated damage should be weighted into the calculation as well. I.E. a PW is doing say 15k per sec. and has been at it for say 10 sec. he has done 150,000 dmg. the healer does a measly 57k heal and the mob decides that 57k is more offensive to them than the 150k? It shouldn't be a sec. by sec. agro meter, mobs shouldn't only have a 1 sec. memory :)

A tank is busting through the building you have taken refuge in, and is soon about to grind you beneath its treads, and you start worrying about the guy 2 blocks over spraying AK47 in random directions possibly winging you with a stray bullet? I think not, I think your priority is get the heck out of the crumbling building without having your head bashed in or tank treads smashing you. AFTER you have gotten away from the tank, THEN you worry about the AK47 and its rattling death.

Now if the healer is pulling of chain area heals, thats a whole other duck, thats 57k+57k within CD time, so thats a 114k "hit" on the mob to be compaired to what the PW has done in the same time frame.
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Ok. You all need to fix your shit cause this is not how it was in 2002/2004. Having died on 3 toons due to everything being aggro'ed on 1 and then killing the others cause of 1 heal? Things are messed up. Ardus, things were based off heal agro to an extent, so was fishbowl, so was any high level area. NOT a lvl 20-50 area. Get it together and fix it because it is BROKEN. Say what you want about the code being the same, no, it is not the same, not at all. There is no way in hell that a healer should throw one heal and get aggro off everything around them. That is frikin absurd and not at all what happened in LIVE (2002)

You know what, Im going to make a video and show you what I am talking about in the newbie zone where i can do nothing but heal and get aggro from everything around me and allow a lowbie to get the kills. Would that satisfy you? What do i need to do as a player to let you know things are borked andtotally frikin fubared (Oh man i wish i could say the words i want to to emphasize how screwed this is....and you dont even know it)? What do i need to do to make you go....yeah they are right, this is fubared and NOT what live was?
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[quote name='Taallonn' timestamp='1353647749' post='66948']
Ok. You all need to fix your shit cause this is not how it was in 2002/2004. Having died on 3 toons due to everything being aggro'ed on 1 and then killing the others cause of 1 heal? Things are messed up. Ardus, things were based off heal agro to an extent, so was fishbowl, so was any high level area. NOT a lvl 20-50 area. Get it together and fix it because it is BROKEN. Say what you want about the code being the same, no, it is not the same, not at all. There is no way in hell that a healer should throw one heal and get aggro off everything around them. That is frikin absurd and not at all what happened in LIVE (2002)

You know what, Im going to make a video and show you what I am talking about in the newbie zone where i can do nothing but heal and get aggro from everything around me and allow a lowbie to get the kills. Would that satisfy you? What do i need to do as a player to let you know things are borked andtotally frikin fubared (Oh man i wish i could say the words i want to to emphasize how screwed this is....and you dont even know it)? What do i need to do to make you go....yeah they are right, this is fubared and NOT what live was?
[/quote]



First you need to calm down and be patient, harsh language is only going to get your post deleted and you get a warning, I should know, I have a few of both, one reason I don't bother posting much any more.

The pattern has been to make changes in the behavior/code with a sledge hammer first and then the fine tuning comes, SLOW, very slow and after most of us just about ready to give up it happens.
I'm almost positive that the people doing the work here unfortunately, have little or no live game experience, at least not like some of us hardcore, beta to sunset old timers so its hard for them to draw from
been there, done that kind of knowhow.
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I think when the healer get agro from the Mob that is attaked from the (PW; JD, TE) that is ok but getting agro from all other Mobs around is a NO GO, let say a PW shoot at a lvl 40 Mob and they are a grp of four, with 1 heal the healer get agro from 4 lvl 40 mobs? Thats wrong at this moment the Healer is the TANK and when PW have no Group Sap he cant get Agro back. The PW is have to be the MEATSHIELD and not the healer.

I play most time a PW PP Team and at the moment i need only heals for the healer him self, shield sap is enough for the PW selfheal and brings only agro back as the next heal on PP start. So Heal is an AERA TAUNT atm and thats not what it should be.

Maybe when game was live it was the same code and the TT can handle this agro with BEFRIEND SKILL,(would make sense for me) but we have 2 healers more now without this skill
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Please remember that we (Devs) have no access to ANY of the "live" code etc so all the work we do and add to the game is purely based on what we/you remember from the game.
Speaking for myself and not the rest of the dev team, I like the game as it is now, as it will make us find new tactics to defeat these issues ingame.
Its challenging now, where in "live" AND "beta" it was very easy to defeat mobs.
I dont want the game to be Exactly like "Live" was, and I would not expect it to be so.

We have made many improvements to the game that "Live" was missing so I would suggest we all suck it up and play the game with "Live" out of our minds.

I took my TE and TT out last night (Ol40, CL15) and had no issues killing the lvl 16's in Musp.
Yes my TT got hammered, but ,my 2 toons could kill the mobs without any incaps etc.

I, for one, like the new system and I think it makes the game more challenging rather than "Easy Live".

In closing, I dont think there is an issue here, unless once the "Raids" start, we see that healers are getting more than we expected them to get, but if this is so, it will be address.

/Nerf bat on standby........
/Flame suit on.....

Enjoy !

Fly safe !


PS. My views are my own and do not reflect the "DEV" Team in any way.
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Tank professions (PW and TE) need to start using their aggro skills. Enrage, etc. That is part of the problem, people are relying on DPS to do it all. It doesnt anymore, if you want to hold aggro off of your medic, you need to do more than point and shoot.

Additionally, the AOE effect of the healer is drawing aggro. That is known about, and still under discussion as to whether it will stay that way. As far as single target goes, from what I was hearing at previous dev meetings and discussions, thats how its going to be. Heal someone, immediate top of the aggro list. Period. That is confirmed how it was in live by practically everyone I have ever spoken to.

Like I said, the aggro of mobs that arent otherwise attacking you or under attack? We can look at that I am sure, but you can pretty much bet that raids will still see TT's racking the xp debt. Anyone who was a healer in EA Live knows what I am talking about too.

I concur with Shaddex otherwise, I havent seen any issues myself, and the people mostly suffering are multiboxers running multiple toons... and arent quick enough to do more than macro their group heals. Too bad. As far as im concerned thats not reason to revisit it. However, if theres enough people involved that are playing only as a healer encountering this issue, and it can be proven that they are aggroing mobs that were not attacking before the heal? Then yes, show a screen, or video, or meet up with me in game and demonstrate.

Its on my radar as a priority and I will bring it up to those that would make decisions like this, but yeah, the hostility... i almost didnt respond. Just so you know.
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Here we go again! This NOT how it was in live. Anyone that says it is just does not remember correctly. During live (2004) my brother played this game as well and was a TT. His computer was right next to mine and not only could I see his sceen but I also would hear him talk when and how he would get aggro from mobs and raids. Yes when he would heal sometimes he would get aggro for just a second or two then it would go right back to the tank. You NEVER had to use any skill to regain aggro from the healer, Healing would NEVER draw mobs in the area to the TT. Thats just crazy to think it should. As for the tactics we used for example the fishbowl. The reason the TT was used with a JD on the edges of the sector was not cause the TT was getting aggro from healing it was cause there was so many mobs just wondering around without any tank on them that if ANY toon got close they would aggro on it. Another good example was the DT scooter raid. A wave would come in and everyone would focus fire on one target leaving the rest to rampage the groups until we kill the first target. Again this would cause alot of TT deaths amounting to huge debt but it was not caused by healing aggro just the fact the loose mobs would randomly pick toons and kill them during waves. A good tank would learn how to switch targets quickly to each of the incoming mobs to gain aggro before it would get to the group. Now if that tank died during the fight then mostly likely the TT would be the next to die.

Think about this. If the mobs always act a certain way then sooner or later someone will come up with a tactic to beat it and poof you have SIMPLE mode again. The only way to keep it challenging is to have random events each and everytime you enter a fight thus random attacks from untanked mobs.
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Let me inject a little shoulda, coulda... something a bit rhetorical I suppose... but just humor me for a moment.

K, so youre out killing a pair of mobs. You start blasting the one thats shooting you, but every time you get it about halfway down... the other one heals it back up.

What do you do?


This has nothing to do with the Live argument. Im asking you to tell me what you would do to beat those two mobs. One shoots you, the other heals all the damage youre doing to the shooter.
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Yea I'm affrad I got to do a little back peddeling.
After starting and useing my Healer (JS) I come to realize that the Heal aggro does need to be
adjusted just a tick.

For a Jenquai Healer, Thought I would be able to wipe my aggression with the Mob by Cloaking
This is NOT the case.
After I through the heal and cloak the NPC does go back to shooting the warrior, BUT when I come
out of cloak the Target gets back on the healer again.
I tested this with a 15 second cloak and a 2 Minute Cloak and reappearance.
The NPC still focuses on the healer.

NOW, if the DEVs are trying to make the Mob AI spot on they did a great Job.
Because If I were in a PvP situation The Healer would be the First I would take out.
Just saying.

[color=#00ff00]Edit: I do have to try it with the Warrior Useing a Plasma Debuff to see if I can pull the aggro, I'll post the findings.[/color]
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[quote name='Stanig' timestamp='1353682866' post='66982']
Let me inject a little shoulda, coulda... something a bit rhetorical I suppose... but just humor me for a moment.

K, so youre out killing a pair of mobs. You start blasting the one thats shooting you, but every time you get it about halfway down... the other one heals it back up.

What do you do?


This has nothing to do with the Live argument. Im asking you to tell me what you would do to beat those two mobs. One shoots you, the other heals all the damage youre doing to the shooter.
[/quote]

One of two ways to kill the two mobs:

1. Kill the healer first.
2. Bring more firepower to out DPS the healer.
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[quote name='Rossdie' timestamp='1353688881' post='66988']
One of two ways to kill the two mobs:

1. Kill the healer first.
2. Bring more firepower to out DPS the healer.
[/quote]

Exactly. Now reverse roles and realize this whole thread is about the players being those mobs and the mobs being the players.

People wanted an AI that actually made sense, but it seems like sense is too hard? O_o Or undesireable? I dont know.
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