Healer Agro Adjustment Needed?

[Rossdie [BT]]

One thing I would like to know though, how far away are these groups of mobs that aren't being actually fired on aggroing the healer? Also, in regards to the fishbowl raid is it set-up like live, where you could park the healers and JD's in a corner and not be killed? The reason I ask is right now the mobs in the FB will follow you across the entire bowl, or atleast they used to.

[GenghisBob]

Still, healing should not aggro mobs that were not in the fight to start with (not already aggroed on some one in the group).

But a question here, if a healer warps away (out of MOB scan range) and then back in, would the MOB still reconize him as a healer?

[Shaddex]

Im all for questioning the game mechanics to get them "Right" but can people please stop saying "THIS IS NOT HOW IT WAS IN LIVE" .
We are not "Live(2004)", we have created this game with "Live(2004)" in mind, but we are not creating an exact copy of "Live(2004)"

Discuss issues by all means, but please leave "Live(2004)" out of the equation.

[Rossdie [BT]]

[quote name='Shaddex' timestamp='1353691583' post='66994']
Im all for questioning the game mechanics to get them "Right" but can people please stop saying "THIS IS NOT HOW IT WAS IN LIVE" .
We are not "Live(2004)", we have created this game with "Live(2004)" in mind, but we are not creating an exact copy of "Live(2004)"

Discuss issues by all means, but please leave "Live(2004)" out of the equation.
[/quote]

Awwww but I like the like "Live(2004) comments, because if this was an exactly like it was back then, the raids would never happen. I mean think about how many groups you needed to do a Fishbowl or Mordana. I doubt as it sits you could get that many people together at one time, plus if you did manage to get 4 to 5 groups together you would crash whatever sector you were in because this server couldn't handle it.

[Canman]

OK fine, you dont want LIVE referenced then how about this.

ITS BROKE FIX IT!!!

[Rossdie [BT]]

[quote name='Canman' timestamp='1353694809' post='66997']
OK fine, you dont want LIVE referenced then how about this.

ITS BROKE FIX IT!!!
[/quote]

WORKING AS INTENDED

[Klyde]

Most of us, me included reference "live" because of having that as our point of comparison. Also, many times the Devs have used the "live" reference as a point of comparison.

If we are at a "start from scratch" point, I'm ok with that.

As to healer agro, I had asked if it warranted looking at and adjusting. Seems from the replies that it is indeed "working as intended". I and other TT's will adapt or die.

[Zackman [LDEV]]

[quote name='Klyde' timestamp='1353696196' post='67001']
As to healer agro, I had asked if it warranted looking at and adjusting. Seems from the replies that it is indeed "working as intended". I and other TT's will adapt or die.
[/quote]

Seeing this thread and how it went does not makes [b]ME[/b] feel wanting to reply here anymore, sorry (is this even correct english?)

I do so anway:
The aggro for using skills is an implementation that (of course) can be discussed, we are adding things and [b]WE DO KNOW[/b] that first implementations need to get revisited, fine tuned/adjusted - based on players responses.

[color=#ff0000][b]But a mature discussion needs constructive and mature postings.[/b][/color]
So far i see (for 90%) bold demanding shouting in UPPERCASE letters and flaming - but no constructive discussion.

FYI:
I am the one coding this very code being discussed here, so maybe we can get this thread back on a mature and constructive level?

[Terrell [BT]]

Might be helpful not only for the warriors (PW/TW) to have their enrage skills but if the Scout or Seeker could get something to help TTs deal with the added aggro from being the primary healers.

[Zackman [LDEV]]

Hint:
Every class has skills and (!)[b]DEVICES[/b](!) drawing a lot of aggro....

[Phorlaug[IS]]

There are so many different thing that can happen in a Raid fight, So many tactics that need to be experimented with.
We will adapt, The number of healers in any raid will go up, healers will rotate heals, JE will use group cloak, Group leaders will warp out of danger, JDs will summons the hurt and weary.

IMHO, this could make Multiboxing a little more difficult.
This, as difficult as it is or will be, is a new challenge this game needs.
I'm just glad Me and My healer can Cloak, untill "See Cloak"

[Taallonn]

I apologize for the tone of my last post, not going to make excuses, I was angry and should have waited til today to post. I am sorry if I upset anyone.

I am wondering if it isn't just the heal agro that people are experiencing, but a combination of that and also the mob mentality that is newer. Seems like there's times where out of nowhere you have 6 additional mobs on you that weren't there before and of course since nobody has substantial agro yet, they go to the healer immediately. This is what has been frustrating for me to deal with. If i agro a group, I have no issues and can heal through it without a problem, but when the other groups around get agro'ed through my heal and chain pull their buddies, then it's overwhelming. So like I was saying, i think its a combination of the heal agro and chain mob mentality thats making this seem so bad.

As far as solution, perhaps give healers an agro dump. This could be possibly on a 30 sec cooldown or something so it isnt abused. That in conjunction with tanks abilities should help alleviate some of the problems. The only other option i see is either tone down mob agro radius on heals, or heal agro. Or just have us deal with it. Again i want to say im sorry Devs, i shouldn't have reacted the way i did.

[JusticeZero]

This is probably a bit of a drastic suggestion but..
Maybe the repair ships SHOULD be the ones to do aggro management? It is completely reasonable to "kill the healer", but if I were a ship designer and faced with that, then my approach would be to make "heal" ships with repair facility very "tanky" - why shouldn't the ship with the ability to rebuild shields have an overbuilt shield generator of its own, it's going to be the primary target anyways? Then I'd swap the armor on the DPS ships out for some other useful features or more pew pew. As soon as the logistic ships come on field, they're going to be taking a lot less fire anyways.. Then the role is "logistic/heal: tank (both by being hard to kill and being able to fix the damage), aggro generation, and maybe we'll stick a gun on there just in case, so they can solo", "warrior: This.. is.. my.. BOOMSTICK!", and the scouts can sneak around and jumpstart and do utility stuff. This would be a lot easier to sort if it was freeform, we'd see these adjustments happen normally, but that would be a decision to make before the game started to be coded, and it's obviously a bit late for that.

[skitszo]

what i do remember is heal agro = 50% heal = the points of agro compared to damage done.....so 1000 damage = enough for 2k heals.

so ya the warriors need to tank. spread out the damage to keep it off the healers.....also...use all the deflects in game so the healers don't agro to much...and healers can down grade thier heals away from area heals when not needed....and ratchet down so they don't over heal..its not rocket science. 8}

[Taallonn]

The problem is, is that tank focus tends to be directed to 1 mob...If a good tank manages to aggro a group of say 5, then everything is cool and we all kill and heal and have joyous victory and do a happy dance in space, and later on the station. However If a different group close by sees the happy healer throw a heal, then all bets are off and the tank in his splendor has already popped his load on the first group, and can do nothing but but spew forth the famous line from Star Wars Episode 3 and say...Nooooooooooooo. As the healer gets bombarded by all the other group that was only aggro'ed by the healer agro and ends up spending a wonderful evening at the station protecting his shoes from the terrans tryin to steal them in lock up..... This scenario is what needs to be looked at...I like my shoes! i dont want them to be taken by builders (j/k. builders have better shoes, hehe ) And Im gonna steal them if theyre in dock from this

[paul [BT]]

*cough* shield nova *cough*

Back when the game was live the PW shield nova skills was pretty good for holding agro on groups... Im not sure how it works on here though as I usually play a JE.

[GenghisBob]

Everyone keeps saying the the tanks should get the aggro back right away by using Enrage. It does not look like Enrage has a AOE level. It only targets one MOB at a time.

And Shield Nova might help by the time you can do the Fishbowl, but not available at OL 50 - 100. :-(

[Falstar [MOD]]

I'd be interested in looking at the video Taallonn mentioned about making, and the hypothetical situation that may arise with two group battling near each other.

[Stanig[IS]]

I was doing some testing with a player group yesterday, observing on my dev toon as they fought some of the nagifars and sults in freya, and noticed some behaviors that likely will have to be adjusted.

Enrage and Grav link arent really doing much hate generation at all, and sap/shield recharge are dominating the hate lists. DPS seems to take a complete back seat.

So i will speak with the rest of the team at the next development meeting about my results, and see if we can get some adjustment on the "aggro" skills, which I can see right now are not doing a whole lot of good. I might also propose halving the hate a heal generates, as at the level I was observing, a single heal was generating more than twice the hate of a 10-15 second buildup with DPS alone.

[Klyde]

Thanks Stanig!

Very much appreciated that it is being looked at.

[Mattsacre]

As I was pointing out before (and stanig is seeing in his testing) that aggro meter isn't taking cumulative into account, mob AI needs a more than 1 sec. memory. Agro meters are doing a 1 sec. by 1 sec. comparison and saying heal is top of aggro list attack healer.

As stanig was saying before that however, attack healer so they can get to tank second....A.I. is A.rtificial I.ntelligence, the mobs aren't meant to all think like us, some should be real dumb (in our thinking) and some should be bizarre (in our thinking) and some should be rational (in our thinking). I would say the humanoid types (RD,Chavez,free spacers etc.) would have a more "rational" behaviour from our standpoint and yes maybe have a higher POed from heal logi, but some of the drones etc. should have a more eccentric agro list, some, maybe heal shouldn't mean a single thing, others higher threshold from heals etc.

Back to the agro list: per my previous example, "rational" logic should take history to account, barring a mob effecting skill to the contrary (like enrage, menace, biorepression, grav link etc.) a player with a ACCUMILATED damage should be calculated against a 1 time heal, not a per sec. calculation, something with 150k damage built up, should be so gone pissed off or desperate (in the case of mobs that flee) that a heal with less returned dmg. shouldn't switch their priority.

Per your example before...if you had a tank targeted, and had him 4/5 killed and a healer came along and healed him to 3/5, but the healer was 100% and could self heal better (healers can self heal better and faster you know..right?), would you nessarily switch to the healer? "Logic" might make you stay on the tank, hoping to finish him off before the healer could get the follow up heal...or that the tank was so reactor drained that he was vulnerable....or that some skill would have a mitigating effect (like mob having grav link, menace, summon, teleport etc.)...or warrior might be seperated from healers heal range...the list goes on.

There are multiple reasons that "HEAL=INSTA-AGGRO" should not be the case. especially in the case of single aggroed mobs by tank vs. area mobs aggroing healer.

I know, I know it's not then live (2002) and is now live (2012), but memory from past experience can influence future behaviour if memeory serves the heals in a non-raid setting were a 50% calculation for agro meter (but there were such things as crit heals as well) i.e. a crit heal would push that 50% to 100% and be a point by point dps calculation, that would give you the mob target switch and resultant SUPRISE! factor you might desire to keep players on thier toes

[HellHasArrived]

I went out just to see it for myself as well. So I could see exactly what people are talking about. Went out with some guildys killing some Voltoi in Antares. Every once in awhile I would hit myself with HP just to see if I could draw agro away from the tank. Sure enough I was able to piss one off enough that he completely forgot about the tank and followed me all over the place. This was the lowest level of HP that I used and it generated that much hate, I was abit surprised to say the least. Edited November 25, 2012 by Sleven.

[Taallonn]

[quote name='Stanig' timestamp='1353850038' post='67108']
I was doing some testing with a player group yesterday, observing on my dev toon as they fought some of the nagifars and sults in freya, and noticed some behaviors that likely will have to be adjusted.

Enrage and Grav link arent really doing much hate generation at all, and sap/shield recharge are dominating the hate lists. DPS seems to take a complete back seat.

So i will speak with the rest of the team at the next development meeting about my results, and see if we can get some adjustment on the "aggro" skills, which I can see right now are not doing a whole lot of good. I might also propose halving the hate a heal generates, as at the level I was observing, a single heal was generating more than twice the hate of a 10-15 second buildup with DPS alone.
[/quote]

Do I need to make a video? or were you able to see what i was talking about? What i saw in a low lvl zone was me able to just heal myself while another killed without fear of drawing agro off me. We were ungrouped, so all comabt/kill xp went to them. Rather not post how easy it is with a high sig engine and just self heals in a video like this as it could be an exploit. Edited November 26, 2012 by Taallonn

[Stanig[IS]]

Yeah we dont need a video. Zack and I talked at the dev meeting today along with the rest of the devs and he does have a solution in mind, just sit tight a few days or so and see how he gets it going. I am confident the changes he proposed to make to address this will make things much less severe.

You will still gain aggro when you heal, but the idea is to make it possible for the tank to get aggro back. That wasnt occurring properly.

[Taallonn]

[quote name='Stanig' timestamp='1353911495' post='67204']
Yeah we dont need a video. Zack and I talked at the dev meeting today along with the rest of the devs and he does have a solution in mind, just sit tight a few days or so and see how he gets it going. I am confident the changes he proposed to make to address this will make things much less severe.

You will still gain aggro when you heal, but the idea is to make it possible for the tank to get aggro back. That wasnt occurring properly.
[/quote]

Gotcha Aggro i don't mind when warranted, this was kinda bad though as you saw. Glad you all are on top of it and I'll be happy to check the fix out! Thank you again for looking into this