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Is It Good For Enb That Builders Do Not Charge For Many Of Their Services?


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In Live the 'game economy' was controled by several 12 y/olds who sat at their comps all day building and selling with the goal of being the one with the most credits. They arent here now (or they grew up). Now we have Vaden and Magoo, yes these two sit at their comps all day building and selling stuff, however, they do it simply for love of the game, as do the other builders. I really do miss the barter and haggling that went on in the market chat back in live, hell at times it was more combat than in the fishbowl, Does it come down to love of the game vs worship of the credits?
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The desire for credits to do xyz is the base of the economy. If nobody cares about credits, you have no economy. IE if people have 500 Mil credits all the time, nothing really to spend it on (or spending it in such small amount it does not matter, OR getting it so easily it does not matter) then a part of the game is missing.

Yes, builders can certainly build for free and do it for the love of the game. As I said before, I mine for the love of mining, but it makes it even [i]better[/i] if I can interact and sell ores to other players or fill orders. An economy adds to the community we have since you have to interact with others to trade. No economy makes it pretty easy to have an online single player game (though you should be able to if you want), not a MORPG :) I don't think it has to be love the game or worship credits, I think you can have both.
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Back in the old live builders didn't charge for anything lower than 4 on my server. Times have changed now. Some of the builders here charge even for lvl 2 items. I think that sucks. Players using lvl 2 items are poor still. I wish it was like the old days.
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Not that I'm much of a builder, but when I get my builders up and running (will probably not reach max level builds this year), I plan on using the following guidelines:
Level 1-3 gear: Build for free
Level 4-6 gear: Build at cost
Level 7-9 gear: Build for profit (anywhere from 10% - 50% depending on the rarity of the recipe)

Exceptions would be guild mates. They would get builds for free if I can afford it, if not at cost.
Tips would always be welcome.
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[quote name='Knix' timestamp='1353497757' post='66716']
Not that I'm much of a builder, but when I get my builders up and running (will probably not reach max level builds this year), I plan on using the following guidelines:
Level 1-3 gear: Build for free
Level 4-6 gear: Build at cost
Level 7-9 gear: Build for profit (anywhere from 10% - 50% depending on the rarity of the recipe)

Exceptions would be guild mates. They would get builds for free if I can afford it, if not at cost.
Tips would always be welcome.
[/quote]Knix i will look for you when the time comes.
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Lol I love the ones saying credit sinks...try agrippa optional content and tell me about credit sinks.....the old OCD raid....talk about your credit sinks! 30m credits in button costs for the device, and there was a fail rate....best case scenario, if all went 100% right it was 30m credits for the key to a raid (that was consumed) and then you had a *chance* at uber loot (but lots of repair costs too :))

If all you did was put it in as it was live (2002) you would have lots of credit sinks and resultant reasons to not have e-peen. The reason there was so much credits floating around in beta and everyone handing out stuff for free, was there weren't raids for a long time to built keys for to soak up credits, nor any other sinks to throw credits into*, so the long time hard corers had a huge stockpile of credits by the time raids came in, and they didn't have the old 12yr old e-peen mentality, they used their credits for fun and enrichment of everyone.

*Not to mention hulkfest and bucky ball mining as a few credit generators. Edited by Mattsacre
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Cred Sinks = Bad.
An economy is created by goods and services, that people need/want, being bought and sold. With the EMU's advent of most high level gear and ammo not requiring ores/comps it killed this need for actually mining. The lack of high level resource fields also hurt. With all the built up credits the ability for traders to rip comps for needed ores made the need for mined ore even worse.

The only change I would make is in the cost of ripping comps for ore. The cost should be based on the refine cost of the amount of ore to make it refined + some %. If it was economic for builders to actually purchase ore, rather than rip comps, and if ammo actually used ore/ore comps then you would have an economy again.

My build theology was level 1-5 free (players buys the comps). Level 6-9 1 manu cost + 10-20% (generally players would tip 10-20% so it was rare that I even had to add on a %. Edited by Crichton
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Credit sinks = required. If you dont take currency out of the game somewhere, those who are creating new currency ala federal reserve on crack (farming, mining, etc) just add more total currency to the pool, inflating prices over time. Eventually you get to a stagnation point where nothing low level has any credit value whatsoever, or you get about 10 really rich players per server controlling the entire in game economy at their whim.
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[quote name='Crichton' timestamp='1354325384' post='67544']
An economy is created by goods and services, that people need/want, being bought and sold. With the EMU's advent of most high level gear and ammo not requiring ores/comps it killed this need for actually mining. The lack of high level resource fields also hurt. With all the built up credits the ability for traders to rip comps for needed ores made the need for mined ore even worse.

The only change I would make is in the cost of ripping comps for ore. The cost should be based on the refine cost of the amount of ore to make it refined + some %. If it was economic for builders to actually purchase ore, rather than rip comps, and if ammo actually used ore/ore comps then you would have an economy again.

My build theology was level 1-5 free (players buys the comps). Level 6-9 1 manu cost + 10-20% (generally players would tip 10-20% so it was rare that I even had to add on a %.
[/quote]

I agree somewhat. If in future equipment, more manufacturable A,B,C parts are required, that will increase the demand for ores. I like that there's an NPC according to the Net-7 reporter, that takes valuable ores as turn ins. That's good IMO, in the future more of such things will be good too, for miners to have work, and be rewarded for doing so. Looking forward to the MCP when it becomes needed. That was a nice thing for miners, though some new MCP rewards will need to be made, so Terran Scouts can get rewards designed for them, the way the other 2 explorers do.

A NPC that takes ores similar to the quartermaster may be helpful too, especially if the NPC gives explorers more than they'd get for vendoring the ores. The Traders could then buy from whatever this new NPC has in stock. Warriors might take advantage of this too, if they think it can save them a few credits, relative to paying the trader for ores the trader purched from an explorer.
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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1354337717' post='67583']
I agree somewhat. If in future equipment, more manufacturable A,B,C parts are required, that will increase the demand for ores. I like that there's an NPC according to the Net-7 reporter, that takes valuable ores as turn ins. That's good IMO, in the future more of such things will be good too, for miners to have work, and be rewarded for doing so. Looking forward to the MCP when it becomes needed. That was a nice thing for miners, though some new MCP rewards will need to be made, so Terran Scouts can get rewards designed for them, the way the other 2 explorers do.

A NPC that takes ores similar to the quartermaster may be helpful too, especially if the NPC gives explorers more than they'd get for vendoring the ores. The Traders could then buy from whatever this new NPC has in stock. Warriors might take advantage of this too, if they think it can save them a few credits, relative to paying the trader for ores the trader purched from an explorer.
[/quote]

I remember from original live that there was talk of the Devs adding an ore vendor where miners could sell ores. Then the builders or warriors could buy only what was in stock from the miners selling to the vendor. IMO this would be a great addition to the game and add to the game in a good way.
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[quote name='Matsu' timestamp='1354338010' post='67585']
I remember from original live that there was talk of the Devs adding an ore vendor where miners could sell ores. Then the builders or warriors could buy only what was in stock from the miners selling to the vendor. IMO this would be a great addition to the game and add to the game in a good way.
[/quote]

I'd be glad to help keep it stocked. I love mining.
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[b] [size=3]Weird is seems many argue from the point of just playing a single character. Don't most have at least 2 accounts? I believe many have 3. I personally have a warrior, trader and an explorer. I got access to ores, comps, shields and weapons. I still get most of my stuff from the market or from friends. Not because its cheap, but simply because its available. Getting credits isnt that hard really. Farm a little bios for some time and you quickly accumulate a small fortune.[/size][/b]

[b] [/b]

[b] [size=3]Is Free stuff good? How can you question if players'generosity is good or not? Of course it is good. It gives each player more time to play the game the way they like. A bunch of happy players makes for a more fun game for everyone :)[/size][/b]
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[quote name='Crichton' timestamp='1354325384' post='67544']
Cred Sinks = Bad.
An economy is created by goods and services, that people need/want, being bought and sold. With the EMU's advent of most high level gear and ammo not requiring ores/comps it killed this need for actually mining. The lack of high level resource fields also hurt. With all the built up credits the ability for traders to rip comps for needed ores made the need for mined ore even worse.

The only change I would make is in the cost of ripping comps for ore. The cost should be based on the refine cost of the amount of ore to make it refined + some %. If it was economic for builders to actually purchase ore, rather than rip comps, and if ammo actually used ore/ore comps then you would have an economy again.

My build theology was level 1-5 free (players buys the comps). Level 6-9 1 manu cost + 10-20% (generally players would tip 10-20% so it was rare that I even had to add on a %.
[/quote]

O.K. a flaw here crichton....beams don't use ammo.

So....all players but jenquia should be hampered in their combat by constantly waiting for miners to supply them ores to build the high end comps for ammo, builders should never be able to rip ores out of other high end comps to build ammo? Seems a little jenny biased there! :)
To add insult to injury, lets let them rip ores for ammo parts..but make it exorbitant to do so in credits, so now they don't have to wait for the ores to build ammo..good! but wait..it costs so much in ammo to kill a mob that they are actually losing credit...why bother?

All this back and forth over a economy this...a economy that.

The reason the builders ripped for ore/comps is-----> SUPPLY! there was a lack of product readily available to purchase (due to lack of ore fields to mine). So add plentiful resources for miners to mine...o.k. POTENTIAL supply..now we are cooking, we have a product, we have buyers, we have demand and consumption..why that the beginnings of..a....economy! :)

The builders purchase whats available to them, wiz.. bang.. pop built something..add a tad for their trouble and their own costs (they shoot guns and have repair/gear costs too :)), sell that product to those same miners/warriors viola! (who pay for their gear with those same ores they mined or the gear/recipes to builders) you have a CREDIT SINK! :)

What if that builder is the only builder of product X and wants exorbitant prices for it and peeps want it so bad they pay out the rear for it....what if that builder earns (robs) 2 trillion credits and has nothing to spend it on? Do we need some credit sink to take it from them? Noooo...it's e-peen! So what if every player in the game started with 2 billion credits *shrug* it's meaningless. Credits area a tool, nothing more. I want what you got...would you take some of these number for it? Thats all credits are..digits.

Are people able to get X, Y or Z for thier effort?..if so then if everyone had a full bank of money it's just e-peen. People always worrying about the "game economy", what ultimately are they asking for? Recognition. They want what they are doing in the game to mean something....in a MMO to mean something?! LOL. Ok you get a pokiepet trophy for your efforts! Feel better?
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One of the biggest issues with overcoming interaction economy in this game is the sheer amount of accounts/toons one person can have. Just do everything yourself, for yourself, and theres never a reason to ask anyone else. Therefore theres no demand.
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[quote name='Stanig' timestamp='1354865054' post='68252']
One of the biggest issues with overcoming interaction economy in this game is the sheer amount of accounts/toons one person can have. Just do everything yourself, for yourself, and theres never a reason to ask anyone else. Therefore theres no demand.
[/quote]

This is true. But the devs have a lot of things they could try to counter. From limiting how many accounts you can have online at any one time, to making more items non tradeable, to making it more difficult to rip vendor stuff for their comps.
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Non-tradeable "bound" items are evil and the absence of these is one of the reasons I still play this game.Wide availability drives prices down and helps new players get cool stuff faster and it makes everyone happy. Getting ores from comps is inefficient, but provides balance in case there is a lack of supply in the ore market. Limit number of accounts? Why? Playing multiple toons simultaneously is fun for a lot of people and sharing cool stuff with new toons makes it easier for them to level up. It is part of the game. Get with the program :)

Lots here argue based on the premise that trade is slow. The market is fine. In fact I would say thriving considering the amount of players. If it ain't broke ... :)
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[quote name='TDZGamer' timestamp='1354983714' post='68442']
Non-tradeable "bound" items are evil and the absence of these is one of the reasons I still play this game.Wide availability drives prices down and helps new players get cool stuff faster and it makes everyone happy. Getting ores from comps is inefficient, but provides balance in case there is a lack of supply in the ore market. Limit number of accounts? Why? Playing multiple toons simultaneously is fun for a lot of people and sharing cool stuff with new toons makes it easier for them to level up. It is part of the game. Get with the program :)

Lots here argue based on the premise that trade is slow. The market is fine. In fact I would say thriving considering the amount of players. If it ain't broke ... :)
[/quote]

I'm in agreement with everything TDZGamer said. If non-tradeable, manufacturable gear is EVER a reality outside of top end raid loot, it will be a massive disservice to the game.

Also, ANY discussion about the state of the economy so soon after a wipe is inherently ridiculous. Give people time to recover from having all their hard work deleted for crying out loud.
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[quote name='Yuritau' timestamp='1354994979' post='68447']
I'm in agreement with everything TDZGamer said. If non-tradeable, manufacturable gear is EVER a reality outside of top end raid loot, it will be a massive disservice to the game.

Also, ANY discussion about the state of the economy so soon after a wipe is inherently ridiculous. Give people time to recover from having all their hard work deleted for crying out loud.
[/quote]

Yes, as Stanig just mentioned, I posted this before the wipe occurred. But I did post it when we did know about it. It is not completely ridiculous to talk about this so soon after the wipe it makes the most sense to talk about it not. If things get out of whack its too late at that point, is it not?

Non-tradeable items aren't great, but if it can be used in a way to make people less self-sustaining, I'd be for it.
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Darkk I made this thread in regards to live. From my original post: "[color=#D3D3D3][font=Helvetica, arial, sans-serif][background=rgb(51, 51, 51)]Food for thought as the server gets wiped and all the builders have to start from a clean slate."[/background][/font][/color]
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