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Hull Patch Overpowered


Ryle

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I dunno maybe it should be like 5 percent structure damage for every 5000 points of hull damage taken, and when structure = 0 then roll the bell curve on a chance (maybe 20 percent) that the item is irretrievably damaged
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The thing is. in live the mobs had to get through structure first which took quite a few deaths. The main reason you lost quality on an item was from not using the repair skill that all warrior classes have, as it is right now that skill is basically useless. The mobs not especially raid bosses, almost instantly take quality down to 0 when you die at certain times, then when you get a JS and you get targeted again and die thats when you take the quality loss, which to me in most cases is around 8%. It should take more than one death to get the structure down to 0, thats the main problem right now. So, basically what is needed right now is a system in place for how much structure is taken before quality can even take a hit, and that would depend on the level of the mob your fighting and what level your particular char is. Even in live, getting killed by a lvl60 voltoi on a tour wouldn't totally destroy your equipment. I wish I did have the numbers, but most of it is random depending on the situation.
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5000 hull damage = 5% Structure to 1-9 items. When any item reaches 0, then roll a 20 percent chance to actually damage its quality.

If hull is less than 1/4, double rate of structure damage
if incap, apply 20 percent structure loss across the board at time of incap. Any item that drops to 0, suffers possible quality damage roll @ 20%



Makes hulltanking dangerous, makes hullpatching a necessity, and makes repair equipment essential.


Example:

PW with 82000 Hull, is incapped. He would take 12 rolls of 5% structure to 1-9 items (for the first 60000 hull lost 5x12) PLUS 4 rolls of 10 percent structure to 1-9 items for the last 1/4 (4x5000), PLUS a flat 20 percent structure to ALL items for incapping. (assuming he was never healed to hull and went 82000-0 straight through)
checks to be made at every 5000 points of cumulative damage post deflects and hdc sustained. 77k 72k 67k etc
If he got lucky, he may not have anything destroyed. If unlucky he may have 5 or 6 items at 0 (which are now inoperable or minimally so in case of engine until repaired)... in which case all 5 or 6 items now roll against the 20 percent chance for quality damage for 1-5 percent loss.


Or

You could do it percentage based so all professions get the same number of rolls. At 75, 50, 25, 10, and 0% hull respectively. 25% Structure loss at each level to 1-9 items on the ship. If any item hits 0 at any of the checkpoints, roll 20% chance to damage quality 1-5 points. If Incap reached apply additional 25% structure loss to 1-9 more items an additional time as a penalty for risking death without healing/fleeing/cloaking/taking on something far too big, etc
Note that each time you passed through a checkpoint, youd get another 25 percent applied, so hulltanking without repair equipment running would be extremely foolish. (ie - repeatedly passing through 75 could end up being worse than just dying one time... your hull is fixed but your equipment is still battered cause you havent been fixing it too) Edited by Ryle
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Something I noticed and thought I should throw it out there... After being killed and disconnecting, or disconnecting and dying as a result. I log back in as if I am alive but have negative hull. My PW one time had -78k hull. Took several hull patches to bring him back to snuff.
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Hey here is an idea. Why not stop the nerf hammer and try to bring the game to where its all at the same level. I mean where does its end? Lets just make all toons have level 6 weapons, level 4 sheilds and level 2 reactor then its all completely worthless. No more " I WIN" only "I FAIL".
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It ends when everythings reward has an associated risk, theres no gimme situations, it requires more than a multibox of toons to obtain the best gear in the game, gear and every obtainable uber arent distributed to 99 percent of the playerbase on 10 toons each so the economy is a joke, skills work well but not so well that they destroy the risk side of the game, and so that everyone has an equal shot with their chosen profession of getting something nice for their efforts.

Bluntly said, growing pains to get the game balanced and set up in a way where its not monty haul solofest and is back to the model of a group cooperative MMO with varying degrees of actual difficulty and rewards commeasurate with overcoming that difficulty. Edited by Ryle
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Ryle, if I am reading your numbers correctly, they are basically the same as whats happening in game right now. For one thing your forcing a TT/TS presence in every raid, I don't want to see forced chars. I really do not like the idea of it being a flat amount of damage per 5000 as you suggested, if that is the case then the buffs on certain equipment basically mean nothing, i.e equipment damage control, and equipment damage magnification buffs. There way too many factors and situations in the game to just have it that way, it needs to be more of randome number then either increases or decreases depending on the situation.
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Its open to interpretation. I mean 2 professions have patch and one of them is usually present anyway, and 3 classes have repair equipment and ive never seen a raid that didnt have at least one of them if not all three. What I am driving at with the suggestions is more akin to something the players can control and prevent as versus the whole "1 shot, lost 10 percent on the most valuable item i have" sorta scenario.
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But your still taking the huge risk of the healer, getting punched out, when what was talked about gets implemented, especially when we have 2 shot mobs out there as in the AV and GOBB, they will just be right back where this conversation about item damage is now. With GOBB in particular where do you get time to pay attention on how bad your structure of an item is. Fishbowl raids in live people didnt check that stuff until after they were dead not during the fight. Also, you are basically saying hey screw you PW's your overpowered anyway, so you get tio take the biggest beating on your equipment. The formula in my opinion just doesnt work unless everyone had the same amount of hull. on top of that how do you plan on calculating this for less than lvl135 chars?
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Yeah thats why I included the percentage based one below it. I was like hmmmm my poor PW is gonna get annihilated and the JE over there is gonna take about half as much qual loss. Work in progress, the numbers are really examples of the possibilites.
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Ok, since hull patch and item damage is tied close together, we are still on topic i guess :P
Lets make it easy and "live like", no "nerf hammer" or whatever - we want fun finally - so things need to be challenging.

Kyp said "5 % bell curve" so we have a "hot spot" on 5 and lower chances to the flanks/sides.
The 5% will be based on the damage the mob did and the level he is.

So the chances are high to get a 5% hit when a L66 kills you "with nor mercy" but low when you got killed by a L28 Chavez while watching TV...

Sounds good to me, sounds "live like" - i remeber getting hit in structure when 5 X 62-66 killed me, but almost no loss when i got killed from Chavez after my "faction farming macro" crashed (oups...did i say this loud?) :lol:
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I liked the bellcurve. I think what killed it for me was the 1-9 items. Thats harsh, very harsh. I cannot recall a single time ever where any death/incap cost percent to anything more than two items at once, and rarely even that, it was usually one.
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Yes but for now we need to influence greater consumption of equipment until the population grows at any rate. We can apply a bell curve concept to the 1-9 too which will make 4, 5 the highest chances, or perhaps make it 1-5 so that its more like 2.5-4.0 items in most instances
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I dont remember from live tho that it was that much items getting a hit?
Wasnt it 1-3 ?
I remember my weapons taking damage OR engine OR reactor, but not everything?

Anyway, i did some testing and changed a few things now.
We have a bell curve(5) now which is mainly controlled via damage amount, damage control and Mob CL in diff. to you CL.

So a JE CL 50 hit from a L64 will most likely take about 4-7% damage on items.
A PW with HDC will take more like 1-4% damage.

A level 66 will most likely hit the PW for 5-7%, the JE for almost 7%.
There is also a chance that no items get damaged (30%).

If a Level 56% hit the JE, the damage is 2-4%, on the PW most likely 1-3%.
We must not forget that we have also "Repair" as a working skill, which is doing a pretty good job.


Thoughts about these numbers?
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Are the ingame items that offer HDC going to be fixed as well? They would sure come in handy for the rest of the classes that do not have a passive, innate HDC buff like the PW's have.
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Well I hope you can get that working Zack, cause the profs that get the most benefit out of equipped HDC also have the most need now. It also fixes about 30 items in the db or so at once. =D

Let me take a guess here... you have to add Hull Damage Control as a passive but invisible skill to the other seven classes, and set its value to zero to make this work, or something to that effect.

Projects sound fun Edited by Ryle
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Just to mention...we are not talking HDC, we are talking about Damage control items, like the "Auriga".
HDC is working correctly, its reducing the overall-damage, so the equipment damage is reduced signifcant because the hull-damage is reduced by HDC already.

What i mean is, there are many items out there, reducing equipment damage via another stat which is "damage control".
Look up the Auriga and read the description, if im not totally wrong it is intended to reduce the device-damage taken (86%@100 ----- 105%@200). Its no skill modifier tho since such skill (Equipment damage control) isnt existing, so its basically an "ability addition" - which is already proven by the fact that this is a JE only device, and JE's have no DC at all.

On the other hand, there is no such device that a PW can use, because he got HDC already (which is affecting everything mounted to the ship).

Correct me if im wrong tho.
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HDC as per the skill and the buff on say the invincible bastion are supposed to reduce damage to hull similar to an uncapped deflect.

PW with HDC takes 10000 damage... if they have HDC (depending on skill level) it will reduce the damage to 5000 at 100 percent and 2500 at 200 percent (or its supposed to). Then youd apply the normal deflect of say 50 vs the damage type, and that 10k hit actually did 1250 damage.


Weapon/Item damage control should be an entirely different mechanic



Ill make a new post with some clarified numbers of how HDC skill/equip should function. Edited by Ryle
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Ok we will use 10,000 as the hit. Its a nice even number and large enough for our purposes. Hull Damage Control is a percent based increase to the amount of resistance a hull can withstand. It stacks with any deflects a player already has.

If a player with no HDC or Deflects takes a hit for 10k damage, that is what will be applied. Reduce hull by 10000 points
If a player with no HDC but 50 Deflects take a hit for 10k damage, apply 50 percent of the number. Reduce hull by 5000 points.

We all know that one, thats working correctly. What is NOT working...

Before deflects even come into play on that hull hit... if a player has an item that gives say 150% Hull Damage Control (Made to Live beam, Invincible Bastion shield, etc) their hull damage should be calculated thus:

100 percent doubles. So if you have 150, you need to add the base hull to itself and half again, thusly - 50000 + 50000 + 25000 = effective 125000 hull now. So, you take the incoming damage...

125000 - 10000 = 115000 and divide back out the 2.5 = 46000

So after HDC the hull took actually 4000 damage. Are you following me here? Then, youd apply deflects of 50 (assuming they have them for that damage type) further reducting the damage actually sustained to 2000. So after that hit for 10k on a hull with 150% HDC and 50 deflects, their hull should read 48000

For an actual tank profession, such as PW, with inherent skill (PWs get 200% built in (triple), and can equip items to increase it to 350 (quadruple and a half) like with the bastion shield)

What that actually does is take 82000 * 4.5 = 369,000. So 369000 - 10000 = 359000/4.5 = 79,777 repeating, lets just round it to 79,778. So 82000 - 79778 = 2,222 actual post HDC damage, which would then be presumably reduced again by half via deflect to 1,111 actual damage, set hull to 80,889

Do you see the problem? We are taking a ton more damage than we should be to hulls to begin with.


Equipment damage I have no idea how it worked properly, but I know that if you went down on hull, your equipment would start taking damage at a certain point, usually after the halfway mark. This was why we all equipped items that reduced that too. In fact some items listed like 300% Equipment damage control. I remember having an archos equipped basically guaranteed a PW would never lose a percent on his weapons. It only ever happened to me one time in live, for 1 percent, on 1 gun, ever.
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Well, that is what i was saying, tho i might have worded it ... "difficult" since english isnt my native.

Bottom line is basically:
HDC is a "damage filter and the entrance" - damage control is a reducer of the (HDC-filtered) damage arriving at equipment.



EDIT:
Are you VERY sure the Bastion is not working?
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PS.:

I cannot follow your numbers, you are "jumping" constantly from 50K to 82K to 100K to 10K - hard to follow.

If(!) i was following correct tho, youre numbers are wrong:
Lets say a PW with 82K hull. Incoming damage 10K, HDC 150%.

((1,5*100) / 200) * 100 = 75% damage reducing.
Damage done to hull: 2500 units.

Re-check:
10K half is 5K (thats 100%)
50% reducing is 2500

5000 + 2500 = 7500
2500 units damage remains -above formula proven.
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