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Hull Patch Overpowered


Ryle

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I have the three or four screenshots showing:

My deflects at 0. The invincible bastion equipped on my TT which has no inherent HDC skill

Me taking unmitigated shield damage

Me taking unmitigated hull damage in the format 0 (-138) as an example.

Do you want the screens? Edited by Ryle
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And yeah im bad with how i format my math. Basically im increasing the hull, taking the damage out, then re-reducing the hull. Probably an awkward step but its how i look at it.

In reality your number would actually come out more favorably than mine. Since mine would show on a 150 HDC a damage reduction of 60%

However, how will your formula account for HDC percents over 200 without reducing entirely to 0? It is possible (with a bastion working correctly) to get 400% HDC on a PW, and 350% on a TE. PW Skill 7 = 250. TE skill 5 = 200. Bastion = 150 Edited by Ryle
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Base hull: 82000
a 250% increase would be 82000 + 82000 (100)+ 82000 (100) + 41000 (50)

Giving an effective hull of 287,000

So if youre going to shoot at the hull, think of it as actually being 287,000 points in the math for calculating the damage sustained in HDC. If you got shot for 10,000 points, subtract that from the "effective hull"

287.000-10000=277000 which would be your raw damage before reducing this number back to actual displayed figure. Which would be done by taking the 3.5 increase effective back out.

277000/3.5 = 79,143. So out of that 10k hit, you actually took about 2850 damage.
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Incidentally, I just went back with my TE now, who also has a bastion, and has 200 percent from skill for effective 350? or so youd think, and im seeing numbers like 200(100) on damage. Which is telling me the 200 is working (im mitigating 2/3 of the incoming damage which is close to both our numbers of 60 and 75), but the bastion isnt working there either. I am gonna switch shields and edit this post to see if the numbers change with a non HDC shield equipped.


Confirmed: Numbers again in the 66(33) format, which tells me the bastions HDC on equip is not working, even for a profession with the HDC skill. Screens to be added once i upload them to Imgur.

[url="http://imgur.com/a/fiXD3"]http://imgur.com/a/fiXD3[/url] Edited by Ryle
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Thats an old problem with that game, how things are "meant". See description from eg. Barrier of Ooze:

Hull Damage Control (Equip) Increases your hulls effectiveness at sustaining damage by 33% when equipped.


"by sustaining damage by 33%".
To me this means the incoming damage is suatained by 33% and no "intermediate hull raise" for calculation, because when it comes to percentage math, the way can make huge differences (like you see).
I tend to follow the description.

Player "Will" is pretty good in such questions, maybe he reads this threads and remember what is was like.
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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1346583654' post='62711']
Confirmed: Numbers again in the 66(33) format, which tells me the bastions HDC on equip is not working, even for a profession with the HDC skill. Screens to be added once i upload them to Imgur.
[/quote]

I check the calculation in that very part of the code later and see whats going on there.
I THINK it comes back to the same problem the items currently have.
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Its quite possible zack, I just am checking math. I mean it makes sense until it goes above 100 percent in skills. Thats half damage, i think we all get that. But whats 200? A third? A half of a half? Would 300 then be an eighth? Im confused lol
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On second looking at my screens on JamesKirk... does 80(-41) mean that the attack was 121, 41 was mitigated, so 80 was applied? If so, 200 percent HDC by itself is only yielding a 33% Mitigation, thats way off what we both calculated even 150 to be (60 and 75 me and zack)

Kirk should have been taking more like 41(-80) on those attacks, and with rally at 50 deflects that number should drop to 20(-100) or something

Yeah these numbers arent right at all. HDC is broken even in the skills if I was taking 80 damage to my hull on an attack of 121 Edited by Ryle
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[quote name='Zackman' timestamp='1346583911' post='62712']
Thats an old problem with that game, how things are "meant". See description from eg. Barrier of Ooze:

Hull Damage Control (Equip) Increases your hulls effectiveness at sustaining damage by 33% when equipped.


"by sustaining damage by 33%".
To me this means the incoming damage is suatained by 33% and no "intermediate hull raise" for calculation, because when it comes to percentage math, the way can make huge differences (like you see).
I tend to follow the description.

Player "Will" is pretty good in such questions, maybe he reads this threads and remember what is was like.
[/quote]
Unfortunately I do not remember what it was in Live. I only know that it was changed at some point, I think they had originally made the same mistake they did with Turbo, where 100%+ = no reload / invincible.
Here though, the skill has been working by reducing damage to the hull as:
Final Damage = Damage / (1 + HDC)
100%HDC = Damage / (1 + 1) = 50% damage
150%HDC = Damage / (1 + 1.5) = 40% damage
200%HDC = Damage / (1 + 2) = 33.3% damage
250%HDC = Damage / (1 + 2.5) = 28.6% damage

400%HDC = Damage / (1 + 4) = 20% damage, if the Buff and Skill stacked additviely, except that the equipment buff has never worked here, so this one hasn't been achievable.
33%HDC = Damage / (1 + .33) = 75% damage, again if the equipment buffs worked.

As for the differences in Damage Control:[list]
[*]Damage Control, Skill, PW&TE only, Should reduce damage to the hull as it already does, and maybe the amount and/or chance for equipment damage.
[*]Hull Damage Control, Equipment Buff, Should only reduce damage to the hull, currently not working, on any class.
[*]Equipment Damage Control/Magnification - "equipment type", Equipment (De)Buff, Should increase/decrease the amount and/or chance for equipment damage of the given type.
[*]Equipment Damage Magnification - "Hull", Equipment Debuff, Should increase damage dealt to the hull, either by additive or multiplicative stacking with Hull Damage Control.
[/list]
"On the other hand, there is no such device that a PW can use, because he got HDC already (which is affecting everything mounted to the ship).
Correct me if im wrong tho. "
Using just the race-built equipment lines, no uniques:
Progen and Terran have access to EDC-shields
Progen and Terran have access to EDC-engines
Progen, TE, and JD have access to EDC-weapons
All have access to EDC-reactors
Jenquai and TS have access to EDC-devices
[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1346586410' post='62716']
On second looking at my screens on JamesKirk... does 80(-41) mean that the attack was 121, 41 was mitigated, so 80 was applied? If so, 200 percent HDC by itself is only yielding a 33% Mitigation, thats way off what we both calculated even 150 to be (60 and 75 me and zack)

Kirk should have been taking more like 41(-80) on those attacks, and with rally at 50 deflects that number should drop to 20(-100) or something

Yeah these numbers arent right at all. HDC is broken even in the skills if I was taking 80 damage to my hull on an attack of 121
[/quote]
This is the damage display, not HDC, that is misleading you. If it showed 80(-41) with 200% HDC and no deflects, he took 41 hull damage.
As simply as I can put it:
Damage not dealt to hull (-(Damage not dealt to Shields))
so 80 damage was not dealt to the hull, and 41 damage was not dealt to the shields.

Finding where exactly the damage *was* dealt to though, isn't easy, especially when you mix in Psi-shield, deflects, HDC, and damage that hits both hull and shields.
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So using your formula, my 60 percent mitigation on 150 HDC is correct then. I just went about it in a weird way.

Damage / 1 + 1.5 = 40%

I wish we had access to a raw log of how damages and deflects are calculating, because those numbers coming up off the shieldbars are grossly misleading then. Looking at them, it almost seems like deflects are weighted twice as heavily as HDC is, and to me that seems way skewed since for a TE its a 10 SP investment and 21 for a PW


Wow, using your formula

At tier 6 HDC for a PW = 30.76% Damage
At tier 7 HDC for a PW = 28.6 % Damage

Six skill points for a 2 percent damage decrease? And 11 skill points for about 6% more then a TE gets. ... That seems really messed up. Edited by Ryle
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Tho it is correct, Ryle - if you stack like the turbo was stacking (before patch), you run into the problems EA had exactly.
HDC and damage control needs to be the same (fixed) way or we run into the same problems.


Will, tnx much, these numbers are extremly helpful.
We do it this way so we avoid all problems right from the start - i was doing it the "pre-patch turbo way" before and that would have lead to negative damage (like the turbo problems).

Tnx all for the help!
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How can that explanation be correct? Taking the example above of "80 (-41)".... If I am taking damage to shields I have always read that as "damage dealt (minus deflects)" It has always appeared to work the same for hull taking damage. A minus sign indicates deflected or mitigated damage, and no minus sign indicated additive damage due to mob debuffs, such as "80 (41)". I'm pretty sure it was explained this way in beta and live. Or have I been reading it wrong since 2001?
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[quote name='Klyde' timestamp='1346607930' post='62739']
How can that explanation be correct? Taking the example above of "80 (-41)".... If I am taking damage to shields I have always read that as "damage dealt (minus deflects)" It has always appeared to work the same for hull taking damage. A minus sign indicates deflected or mitigated damage, and no minus sign indicated additive damage due to mob debuffs, such as "80 (41)". I'm pretty sure it was explained this way in beta and live. Or have I been reading it wrong since 2001?
[/quote]
That explanation is only for what your seeing here, nothing to do with Live. It's been requested a few times to be changed into something simpler and more Live-like.
For example hull damage without any HDC always shows up as [ 0(-xx) ] instead of [ xx(-deflects) ]
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While I dont think theres any further gripe about amounts or how the damage reduction is being calculated (sounds to me like its gonna be fixed nicely), i am a bit concerned about this:

If a PW invests 11 points to get to HDC7 over HDC5, the return is about 6 percent additional damage reduction. The lower tiers of the skill give more return than the higher.

Can anything be added to Tier 6 and 7 to offset this severe diminishing return formula. As it stands, its practically a waste of skillpoints going over 5

Perhaps a group bonus, 10% HDC to all group members at 6, 25 at 7. Will not stack with another PW, and is additive to equip buffs and any existing group bonus.

Honestly I am considering call forwarding my HDC skill on Ryle and using those extra 11 points elsewhere, because thats such a small return for the investment. Edited by Ryle
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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1346632335' post='62763']
Yes I know, but im talking about a group enhancement for investing those points.

I cant think of a single tier 7 skill that gives less return than its level 1 counterpart.
[/quote]

As in a "friendly" type buff that can be placed on fellow players like the enviro shield, psi shield, and rally for example?

I was looking at the skill list for the PW and did notice that it was lacking a helpful class skill buff like the other classes have. I think it would be interesting if they had a skill buff that gave a friendly target (player chars) some added hdc protection. This buff ability could become available at tier 6/7 of the hdc skill or something. Just my two cents anyway.
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Breakdown:

No HDC Skill = 100 percent of damage taken

Tier 1 (no point invested, just the mission/skill trained): 100% HDC. Damage/(1+1) = 50% Damage taken. (0 points = 50 percent damage decrease)
Tier 2 (1 point invested so far): 125% HDC. Damage/(1+1.25)= 44.44% Damage taken (1 point = 5.5% additional)
Tier 3 (2 points, 3 total invested): 150% HDC Damage/(1+1.5)= 40% Damage taken (2 points = 4.5% additional)
Tier 4 (3 points, 6 total invested): 175% HDC Damage/(1+1.75) = 36.36% Damage taken (3 points = 3.5% additional)
Tier 5 (4 points, 10 total invested): 200% HDC Damage/(1+2) = 33.33% Damage taken (4 points = 3% additional)

- TE Stops here-

Now for PW:
Tier 6 (5 points, 15 total invested) 225% HDC Damage/(1+2.25) = 30.77% Damage taken (5 points = 2.5% additional) - WTF?
Tier 7 (6 points, 21 total invested) 250% HDC Damage/(1+2.50) = 28.57% Damage taken (6 points = 2.2% additional) - WTF?

So for 21 skillpoints, youre only getting 4.7% more protection than a TE with 10 points invested. Something needs added.
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[quote name='Mynd' timestamp='1346634353' post='62769']
As in a "friendly" type buff that can be placed on fellow players like the enviro shield, psi shield, and rally for example?

I was looking at the skill list for the PW and did notice that it was lacking a helpful class skill buff like the other classes have. I think it would be interesting if they had a skill buff that gave a friendly target (player chars) some added hdc protection. Just my two cents anyway.
[/quote]

Yeah thats kinda where I was going with that.

Tier 6 = 225 personal HDC as written, and adds the ability to buff (actively or passively) group members with 10% HDC, this would be in addition to the default group bonus
Tier 7 = 250 personal HDC as written, and adds the ability to buff (actively or passively) group members with 25% HDC, this would be in addition to the default group bonus
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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1346634658' post='62771']
Yeah thats kinda where I was going with that.

Tier 6 = 225 personal HDC as written, and adds the ability to buff (actively or passively) group members with 10% HDC, this would be in addition to the default group bonus
Tier 7 = 250 personal HDC as written, and adds the ability to buff (actively or passively) group members with 25% HDC, this would be in addition to the default group bonus
[/quote]

Why just grouped players only? All the other helpful class skill buffs can be activated on non-grouped individuals as well as grouped ones.

Nice percentages though....nothing game breaking there.
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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1346634995' post='62773']
So make it applyable to anyone, doesnt matter to me. Im just trying to avoid the potential nightmare of adding an activatable to a passive skill. Can they even do that?
[/quote]

Considering the fact that the developers were able to implement the new classes as well as the new mobs that were never in live with their uber L33t coding skills....I am inclined to think they could do this....if they wanted to.
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[quote name='Mynd' timestamp='1346634916' post='62772']
Why just grouped players only? All the other helpful class skill buffs can be activated on non-grouped individuals as well as grouped ones.

Nice percentages though....nothing game breaking there.
[/quote]

Rally cannot be activated on non group members, so why not have the HDC skill be the same?
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