Hull Patch Overpowered

[Ryle [N7R]]

Take a TT or TS, max out hull patch. Use any item in the database to push your skill level to 10 (funnel weaver ML, terran advantage 3 engine, HFF shield i think, just pick something to put it to 10)

Now, go target someone and switch your HP to the light yellow version (the one you get at rank 6)

Just keep pushing the hotkey, it will cast about once a second.

It heals for about 20-30k hull repair per shot. (even on PWs and TEs with their beautiful HDC bonuses)

It costs ZERO reactor to use. (really? you sure cant spam level 6 shield recharge like this without killing your reactor in about 10 seconds)



And theres not something wrong with this? Who needs shield recharge anymore, just spam HP. Seriously, dont even worry about the blue bar, no one cares about shields since we dont lost item quality on hull damage just death, no one can die with 2 or 3 TTs/TSs spamming hullpatch, not on AV, GoBB, controller, fishbowl, mordana... nothing. The only time people die is when people stop spamming HP.


Did I miss something? Who needs a JS/PP anymore, we got us an i-win button. Edited August 30, 2012 by Ryle

[Zackman [LDEV]]

[quote]It costs ZERO reactor to use. (really?)[/quote]

[b]YES[/b].
Hover the skill (description) - zero energy.
Some players said also the prima guide is mentioning this.

But about the time (cooldown) - Question:
Is there a cooldown? I remember a cooldown from live...do we know numbers?

[Ryle [N7R]]

There is no cooldown once you max the skill and use the next lowest skill color (with an item that pushes you to 10 rank), and just because it was that way in "live" doesnt mean it was "good"

Its a terribly exploitable (if this is working as intended thats just silly because a couple smart terrans are gonna be able to effectively heal any tank without any issue, maybe even afk it with a macro) situation.


As it is when I push the 2 on my TT (my hotkey for HP) i get an instant "hull repaired" and press it again for another. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2... and with no reactor use, i dont ever have to stop.

Possible solutions:

- Fix mob aggro so healers get targeted if they heal a lot (in live this was true, the moment you healed, the mob wanted to eat some tradesman)
- add a hard cap CD to it since it has no reactor use, it needs some kind of limiter. Edited August 30, 2012 by Ryle

[Rossdie [BT]]

There is or was no cooldown times for shield recharge or hull patch here or in live. Also, there was no energy usage in live for hull patch. But there was a timer on how fast you could spam it. What I mean by that is it wasnt instant, it took like 5 seconds to patch the hull, not sure on the exact numbers but you couldn't spam it like shield recharge.

[Ryle [N7R]]

Then the solution may be to give it the windup timer that skills like grav link and shield charging have. See that would make sense to me. Just as it is, with no recourse timer, no cost, and instant good heals... its a bit screwed up.

[Zackman [LDEV]]

When you say it was wind up in live and no cooldown, we can do it this way - NP.

5s? Thats enough to stop "mass patching"?

[Mynd [BT]]

Yep....mobs would agro on a individual if he healed someone else or happen to slap some buffs on another player that was being attacked in live.

Meh...yesterday, while doing the Mordie raid I died even though there was a TT and JS there spamming shield recharge/hullpatch. The JS died too at one point....so it's not way overpowered.

[Klyde]

The only change to Hull Patch recently was reactor drain removal, which is as it always was supposed to be. In a tough fight, it will still take a concerted effort to keep the tank alive.

Also of note, you can spam HP on a target, but if you hit the key too fast there is no heal because the skill was cut off, but there is still a Hull repaired message. Dunno why that happens, but it does. I catch myself getting in too big of a hurry at times in raids and have seen it more than once. If the skill is interupted there should be no message.

Not to mention, when the mobs start disrupting skill use, the healers will start seeing more doritos on the field.

[HellHasArrived]

[quote name='Klyde' timestamp='1346375166' post='62590']
The only change to Hull Patch recently was reactor drain removal, which is as it always was supposed to be. In a tough fight, it will still take a concerted effort to keep the tank alive.

Also of note, you can spam HP on a target, but if you hit the key too fast there is no heal because the skill was cut off, but there is still a Hull repaired message. Dunno why that happens, but it does. I catch myself getting in too big of a hurry at times in raids and have seen it more than once. If the skill is interupted there should be no message.

Not to mention, when the mobs start disrupting skill use, the healers will start seeing more doritos on the field.
[/quote]
Klyde I got a flat...

[Taluna6]

Fixing the Aggro for Healers?? Sorry in live no one healed on BIG raids as i remember.
Scooter raids i.e all fired like hell (even healers) since all knew when a healer fires a single area heal the 3 mobs instantly nuke him of and there was no tank ability to save him..
Fisbowl?? healer and JD sat in thier corners hoping no fish finds em.. JE and PS fly around JS the doritos and JD pulls em back to corner healer patches hull and of the TE/PW go since shields are dust in microsec. only HDC saved u a lil time.

Speaking of spamming and no one dies... Seen it 3 days ago main tank looses aggro on lag main group healers (2xTS) had to figure out on what person to heal since there were 3 groups on the AV .. so the one with most aggro died and second in aggro we found him fast nuff to catch him bevore 0.
Same on GoBB what do we have to bring to get shields on a single target up ?? 1 Group of PW(Tank) 4 TT/PT/JT to keep his shields on and a TS for NF.. second group normal with 1 Healer maybe a single shot hits not the main tank?? Btw we want something to do/want it difficult yes but who said we wanna die??

Raids with more than 2 group i say we need a raid interface but i dont think the client will give that. If it does it would be possible to heal without spamming..

[kjeron]

[quote name='Zackman' timestamp='1346363297' post='62583']
When you say it was wind up in live and no cooldown, we can do it this way - NP.

5s? Thats enough to stop "mass patching"?
[/quote]
It's not an instant activation...
It already has a 5.5 second activation, however like any other properly working skill, that activation time is reduced by a certain amount for each skill level above what was needed to unlock that skill Tier. Even Area Immobilzation Field (Gravtiy Link Tier 5) will activate as fast as Improved Area Recharge/Patch when at SL 10.
At SL 7:
Tiers 1-2 activate in 1.5 seconds, Tier 2 requires SL3 = 5.5 - (7 - 3) = 1.5(minimum)
Tier 3 activates in 3.5 seconds, Tier 3 requires SL5 = 5.5 - (7 - 5) = 3.5
Tier 4 activates in 4.5 seconds, Tier 4 requires SL6 = 5.5 - (7 - 6) = 4.5
TIer 5 actiaves in 5.5 seconds
At SL 10:
Tiers 1-4 activates in 1.5 seconds, 5.5 - (10 - 6) = 1.5(minimum).
Tier 5 activates in 2.5 seconds, 5.5 - (10 - 7).

Tier 4, the one everyone is spamming, actually heals less over time than Tier 5, however it is more efficient since less is being wasted by topping off the hull.

Making every tier a static 5 second activation time just removes any use for the lower tiers, the reason they remain available after raising the skill further is to have faster, smaller heals available.

[Ryle [N7R]]

Thats just the thing Aru, people try to heal shields vs GoBB and AV. TEs have twice the hull strength with HDC as they do shields, and PWs three times as much. If every TT just hullpatched, like seriously never hit another button, a raid group more often than not would never die. Keep adding more to that and it just becomes arbitrarily silly.

Theres no drawback to hulltanking. We dont take structure/quality damage unless we die. So for now, HP spamming a PW or TE tank is the recipe for victory, and this is why:

Once youve got aggro established, its purely academic. If its a PW or TE they would have to be taking over 100k DPS to beat a single hullpatcher using level 6. 28800 per second on 50 deflects + HDC = the mob needs to be doing 115,200 damage per second to beat the TT or TS. (approximately. one or one and a half seconds. its still a nearly instant cooidown/refire)

If the aggro switches to the other profs or people try to run only on shield healing thats when you see wipes happen, then and only then. Aggro switches dont normally happen unless 1. The tank isnt using their skills to hold aggro on top of their DPS (grav link, sap, biorepression, etc), 2. One of the glass cannons is trying to hero mode and do way more damage than the tank. (see this happen with JDs a lot, they get cocky and start to try to do superdamage and get obliterated cause they took aggro doing it.... aint talking about the initial summon here either, that usually happens off the top, then the tank picks it up and it goes) 3. Lag spikes. Otherwise its fairly impossible for an established aggro to be lost on this AI.

Additionally, there used to be massive hate generated for healing. In live TTs were often the tanks out of necessity because it was impossible to establish aggro with the healing hate generated by a TT. Youd have it for all of five seconds, that tt would pop a heal, and immediately its scramble to save the TT. That was why MASH groups were formed for live fishbowl. You couldnt have a TT on the front line, it would die first. That doesnt happen here. More often than not if a healer is getting nailed out the gate its their sig being higher than the tanks. Edited August 31, 2012 by Ryle

[Zackman [LDEV]]

[quote name='will' timestamp='1346410058' post='62603']
At SL 7:
Tiers 1-2 activate in 1.5 seconds, Tier 2 requires SL3 = 5.5 - (7 - 3) = 1.5(minimum)
Tier 3 activates in 3.5 seconds, Tier 3 requires SL5 = 5.5 - (7 - 5) = 3.5
Tier 4 activates in 4.5 seconds, Tier 4 requires SL6 = 5.5 - (7 - 6) = 4.5
TIer 5 actiaves in 5.5 seconds
At SL 10:
Tiers 1-4 activates in 1.5 seconds, 5.5 - (10 - 6) = 1.5(minimum).
Tier 5 activates in 2.5 seconds, 5.5 - (10 - 7).
[/quote]

THATS is what we need, hard numbers

Tnx much Will, HP will be changed to that (which is basically just a half-second change since the wind-up is calculated like that exactly).

So the skill will be like in live: No energy use, wind-up time as above.
Anyway...Ryle, dont worry about "mass spamming" - there are changes as well now regarding aggro behaviour for healers.....

[kjeron]

[quote name='Zackman' timestamp='1346414158' post='62608']
THATS is what we need, hard numbers

Tnx much Will, HP will be changed to that (which is basically just a half-second change since the wind-up is calculated like that exactly).

So the skill will be like in live: No energy use, wind-up time as above.
Anyway...Ryle, dont worry about "mass spamming" - there are changes as well now regarding aggro behaviour for healers.....
[/quote]

That's how the skill already is.

[Zackman [LDEV]]

It's currently 1.0 s minimum wind-up time, that's why i mentioned a half-second change in my previous posting.
I changed it now (code wise) to 1.5s.

[Rossdie [BT]]

One thing before you play around with aggro on healers if they use heal skills, the first thing that needs to be addressed is the way equipment damage is taken. I can tell you if healers get taken out to many times and destroy there equipment constanly, you will have a riot on your hands or healers just won't join raids.

[Zackman [LDEV]]

Ya, good hint.
What is it currently like? (Didn' look it up so far).

[Mynd [BT]]

GoBB can easily knock off 10% off an item. Most of the time it is between 3 and 6% (percentage loss on my equipment)....still enough to make someone want to say "screw this...I'm outta here". The main thing preventing people from actually doing this is the ease at which high end items can be obtained/replaced. Generally, it doesn't cost an individual anything except time go about replacing items that are "shot" percentage-wise....irritation and all lol.

I would also like to add, that while it was more than possible to get 10% knocked off an item in live......it only happened after like several deaths. Whether or not the player repaired the structure of said item(s) after each death also played a part. Just saying that no one was getting this amount of percentage loss after only one death in live.

[HellHasArrived]

My JD lost 14% on his HotM from one GoBB kill one time... I'm not gonna lie I sheded a couple tears.

[Zackman [LDEV]]

What was the damage amount on live?
I remember something 1-3 % ?

Do you have accurate numbers?

[Taluna6]

Ryle i agree we need a lil tweak on firing time for HP and on aggro for Healers. Call me a burned child i seen many MMO's since Sunset of EnB and most times someone used the OVERPOWERED word the devs went on fix that problem. Most times they almost castrated the skill/class that was mentioned op. I know Emu devs are Players too but i still react allergic on that word in a thread headline

[Mynd [BT]]

[quote name='Zackman' timestamp='1346440163' post='62620']
What was the damage amount on live?
I remember something 1-3 % ?

Do you have accurate numbers?
[/quote]

1-3% sounds about right in regard to percentage loss during live. Not only that, a player often took a hit on percentage loss on more than one item that he/she had equipped.

I think I came across an old post that was about equipment damage during incapacition. Will look for it again....hopefully there were some hard numbers posted there or at least the formula that determined % loss.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Bell Curve on 5%, just generate it that way, should be about right most of the time, and a random roll between 1-9 for the number of devices/core items to damage.

[Ryle [N7R]]

ouch for the guy that gets 5% to 9 items o.o

[Mynd [BT]]

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1346458175' post='62627']
Bell Curve on 5%, just generate it that way, should be about right most of the time, and a random roll between 1-9 for the number of devices/core items to damage.
[/quote]

^^Sounds reasonable and "Live" like.
[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1346458413' post='62630']
ouch for the guy that gets 5% to 9 items o.o
[/quote]

LOL....yeah. From now on depending on raid of course....equipment setup will be mostly if not all player-made gear.

Anyhow, I read somewhere that % loss on equipment mainly resulted from your hull getting pounded. 1 shot deaths rarely resulted in item % loss because the player(S) died instantly without their hull taking a beating in the process.