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Accuracy Rating Of Weapons And Distance


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Question: Shouldn't accuracy be affected by distance?

Things to consider:

1. Beams having to travel max distance, about 5k, with a Vindis Beam Focus would be 5,000 Kilometers. Even one degree off would vastly change the direction of the beam and or projectile weapon's ballista. throwing off accuracy to beamers would mean possibilities of various beams doing 0% damage, since they missed the target, and provide a undeniable amount of incentive for firing at close range. A Jenquai using stealth, ambush tactics to position behind a mob and strike would have the advantage in this scenario. Jenquai who choose to remain in formation would have to incurr the penalty of accuracy loss.

2. Propellant was mentioned with the missle discussion. Wouldn't there be a reasonable degree of error where the missle could run out of propellent, due to possible obstacles or vectors in transit? How about debris as a possible medium for early detonation? While fighting, there are visual chunks of debris or etc that could collide with the missle and cause a premature eruption, or at least change the missle's trajectory. Its been awhile since I had a max level TE, so the best I could recall is that their max range is 7.15 k, which is 7,150 Kilometers. At greater distances the events of a failure to make contact have a higher amount of combined probability.

3. Progens may take the lead in over all damage once again after distance affects accuracy, because the usual tactic of a progen is to remain still, take aim, and volley off volley after volley. I still think that distance should affect all weapons' levels of accuracy, but progens would benefit the most from this since they are the often the ones to buff beam and projectile accuray, and they have the best shielding and other defences to take the beating of a point-blank grudge match.

As a side note, I was told that the maximum level of weapon accuracy skill was 10. Why are high level improved handling equipments, such as the Aquila Prime, giving more than 1 skill level, if the maximum is so? This is something worth considering along with the proposal. Edited by Logane
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We already have level and skill based accuracy, which makes it near impossible to hit anything 20 levels above us, and while that may seem high, at least 16+ is neccesary for us to be able to hit, otherwise we would never hit raid mobs. I don't think we need another factor, besides beams are supposed to do reduced damage at 50%+ range anyway. Kiting with beams and a Coma was a viable strategy in Live, and should still be one here.

Involving debris for weapon accuracy doesn't make much sense when we can fly straight through stars with just a slight shield drain. Our missiles are supposed to be self-guided, they know their target, and aren't going to detonate on anything else, they may get bumped out of the way, but they'll correct themselves. And they are certainly capable of dodging "large" obstacles, if you've ever noticed the maneuverability they exhibit when flying to their target.

Your max ranges are a little low:
Jenquai max beam range is 8.68k.
Terran max missile range is ~8.5k.
Progen max proj. range is ~6.5k?

As for the Aquila:
Many ways to play, you can have L9 devices but still only be on L1 weapons, especially if you aren't using your race's preferred weapon or aren't a warrior class and have other priorities than combat. Then again why are there L9 Progen Warrior only devices?
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[quote name='Iacobus' timestamp='1340377313' post='59427']
I don't think there are L9 PW only devices as PWs are limited to Device Tech 8, but I take your point. ;)
[/quote]

There are some L9 devices in the Database, that are restricted to classes that don't get L9 devices.

TT Only L9 devices:[list=1]
[*]L9 Greasemonkey (not to be confused with Greasmonkey Plus)
[*]L9 Roadrunner (Not RR+)'
[*]L9 Profiler
[/list]
TW Only L9 devices:[list=1]
[*]aa Ehtag Y
[*]L9 Shark Fin
[/list]
PW Only L9 Devices[list=1]
[*]Shatter Novem
[/list]
Jen Restricted Warrior Only L9 devices[list=1]
[*]Laser Scope Novem
[*]Plague Novem
[*]Sting Novem
[/list]
No one can use those devices as they are restricted from being used by any L9 device user.
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Max beam range is 8.58k? Could someone explain this, please? Also, I wasn't playing when the beam distance thing was implemented, what is the justification for giving beamers a distance Nerf and no one else?
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Lasers, even in vacuum, diffuse over distance. (though for a laser as powerful as something that can cut steel hull, id doubt it would diffuse all that much in only 3km of distance, physics wise, it would be more like 3 MILLION km)

Kinetic energy fired projectiles or rocket powered missiles, would not.

That was the general rationale behind it in live.
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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1340408100' post='59551']
Lasers, even in vacuum, diffuse over distance. (though for a laser as powerful as something that can cut steel hull, id doubt it would diffuse all that much in only 3km of distance, physics wise, it would be more like 3 MILLION km)

Kinetic energy fired projectiles or rocket powered missiles, would not.

That was the general rationale behind it in live.
[/quote]

Ok, but, I thought beams were light energy weapons, light travels in waves and particles. . . and for extremely long distances. a few 1,000 kilometers I don't think would degrade this scale of intensity. Edited by Logane
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[quote name='Logane' timestamp='1340407039' post='59548']
Max beam range is 8.58k? Could someone explain this, please? Also, I wasn't playing when the beam distance thing was implemented, what is the justification for giving beamers a distance Nerf and no one else?
[/quote]
A prototype beam with the DG buff can get really good range...
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[quote name='will' timestamp='1340375381' post='59423']
We already have level and skill based accuracy, which makes it near impossible to hit anything 20 levels above us, and while that may seem high, at least 16+ is neccesary for us to be able to hit, otherwise we would never hit raid mobs. I don't think we need another factor, besides beams are supposed to do reduced damage at 50%+ range anyway. Kiting with beams and a Coma was a viable strategy in Live, and should still be one here.

Involving debris for weapon accuracy doesn't make much sense when we can fly straight through stars with just a slight shield drain. Our missiles are supposed to be self-guided, they know their target, and aren't going to detonate on anything else, they may get bumped out of the way, but they'll correct themselves. And they are certainly capable of dodging "large" obstacles, if you've ever noticed the maneuverability they exhibit when flying to their target.

Your max ranges are a little low:
Jenquai max beam range is 8.68k.
Terran max missile range is ~8.5k.
Progen max proj. range is ~6.5k?

As for the Aquila:
Many ways to play, you can have L9 devices but still only be on L1 weapons, especially if you aren't using your race's preferred weapon or aren't a warrior class and have other priorities than combat. Then again why are there L9 Progen Warrior only devices?
[/quote]

The point of this proposal was introduce a possible balancing mechanic that would prevent raid mobs from being laughed at, and provide an answer to the "why can Terran's kite anything in game?" question. Just simply saying "the missiles know their target" is a lot like saying "I have powers that make me able to do it, that's why I can do it."

There was an implementation to stop Jenquai from firing too far away. I suppose it was a problem because it actually got done. Now, how come beamers are the only ones affected by the range of their attacks? If distance really does matter, and beams of light energy are affected, then why isn't something that actually has sizable mass, guided or not, subject to basic laws of physics? Edited by Logane
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[quote name='Logane' timestamp='1340449986' post='59589']
There was an implementation to stop Jenquai from firing too far away. I suppose it was a problem because it actually got done. Now, how come beamers are the only ones affected by the range of their attacks? If distance really does matter, and beams of light energy are affected, then why isn't something that actually has sizable mass, guided or not, subject to basic laws of physics?
[/quote]

I am not currently seeing the 50% reduced damage from beams at max range the way it was in Live. You can be at max range and still do 100% damage. However what you are talking about are Westwood's game design choices based on balance and not 'real physics.' Real world laser beams do not stay at full strength for unlimited range.....add a plasma shield into the mix and you could argue that the only way to ensure the beam does max damage, it it hits at all due to the plasma shield changing frequencies, is to be in the 'sweet' spot where there is zero degradation from particulates, gravity, wave theory, and strong force effects.

In Live I seem to recall MLs having a longer range ( at max level maybe 10K?) then they do now. PLs seem about right though.
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https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/7036-give-the-terrans-something-to-actually-do-in-combat/page__fromsearch__1

8.5k is ok at my side its close to life if not even higher. Only thing i dont like is that the above mentioned thread was all bout same and went into dead end and Logane had to rip it off once. To make it clear RAID MOBS have 'nuff mechanics to counter Terran's
-summon
-slow(Mass field/gravity effects)
-own weapon range above 9k
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[quote name='Aru' timestamp='1340965115' post='59804']
[url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/7036-give-the-terrans-something-to-actually-do-in-combat/page__fromsearch__1"]https://forum.enb-emu...__fromsearch__1[/url]

8.5k is ok at my side its close to life if not even higher. Only thing i dont like is that the above mentioned thread was all bout same and went into dead end and Logane had to rip it off once. To make it clear RAID MOBS have 'nuff mechanics to counter Terran's
-summon
-slow(Mass field/gravity effects)
-own weapon range above 9k
[/quote]

No, it's cool with me if he "rips off" my thread. I hereby give him permission to use anything I say to make his own points.

BTW I keep hearing all kindsa stuff about how "there's no problems because raid mobs can handle it". What about the entire rest of the friggin' game? Does that exist just so you can get the levels to go raiding? If so, why even bother? Just set every new char's level to 150, write up a guide on how to spend the points for optimum raiding, and have done with it.

Re the OP, if Jenqs were range-nerfed across the entire game to eliminate a problem with killing mobs at distance, I have to agree that Terrans should also get a change. I am playtesting a TE right now. At CL5, OL9-10 or so, I received a mission to kill a Bogeril Militia Captain, a CL17 mob. I should probably not have gotten that mission, but hey, ST4, things will be worked out in time, so I tried it anyways, just to see. I'd seen another guy dorito'ed repeatedly on the same mish, so I was curious as to how it would play out.

I killed it easily with nothing more than the gear I could buy, had learned to make as part of the default intro, or had looted from my own kills. EASILY. I did not take a single hit. A CL5 with L2 gear against a CL17, which by rights should need L3 gear or a group to take out.. One Harrier L2, one Graviton Coil, one Shark Fin L2, and two L2 MLs at <200% were more than a match for it.

...WTH? Sorry, but I really have no sympathy for Terran player claims that "everything is fine" right now. That sounds like people defending an entitlement complex to me. I really don't want to continue this playtest if my characters style is to simply exploit a range advantage for free wins every time. That turns Terran play into a simple accounting game of ammo cost vs loot sale value, with the xps as a free bonus.

My own thread postulated that it might be possible to play Terrans in a way that requires them to at least skirt the possibility of a mob actually getting a shot at them during their fight. I playtested the concept with a Jenq and a very specific mob, and it worked. I playtested the same with my TE at low levels and very specific mobs, and it worked just as well. I got hit, but my own skill (or lack thereof) determined how much, and I had to actively use my speed buffs to give me a significant tactical advantage.

However, the instant I got MLs with a starting range of almost 5k, then stacked ML range gear on, that entire mechanic became pointless. To counter this, I strongly suggest that ML range be scaled according to level and the ML buffs be revised to give different advantages, such as higher damage in exchange for a slower cycle time. Speed boost gear can be used to escape the mobs range before the shields go down so that they can recharge their shields and reactor and then return to hit the mob again, and that's a good style of play for fast-moving, relatively fragile ships using slow-firing, hard hitting weapons.
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im outa here since i cant here the Terrans can hit at 8k thas tooooo long wine anymore (and play my PW she has almost same stuff for Progen as my TE, and can only hit mobs without penalty at 6.5.- 7.2 k range at all weapons).
last word for this thread:
Get used to it .. since it was so in life and (hopefully) will get to alpha/beta life again.
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[quote name='Aru' timestamp='1340998830' post='59837']
im outa here since i cant here the Terrans can hit at 8k thas tooooo long wine anymore (and play my PW she has almost same stuff for Progen as my TE, and can only hit mobs without penalty at 6.5.- 7.2 k range at all weapons).
last word for this thread:
Get used to it .. since it was so in life and (hopefully) will get to alpha/beta life again.
[/quote]

be as p'o'd as you want, suggestions are what a Suggestion forum is for. As I've said before, it's not all about raiding, 99% of the game is not raiding. Your PW wasn't killing CL17 at CL5, was it?
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Comparing the emulator to the [b][u]live[/u][/b] version of Earth and Beyond is to compare one unfinished piece of work to another. Balancing in [b][u]Live[/u][/b] was never really handled very well, as I'm sure most of us would agree.

Aru, I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to say here. It sounds as if you're happy playing characters that take little to no skill to play. That may be very well good for you, but it leaves little room for those of us that like challenge, to have a feeling of accomplishment after mastering something. If I were a poker player, for example, I wouldn't go to Vegas to play slot machines.

Killing things at long distances without any penalties is not challenging, but it gets the same results of those of us that may experience XP debt while combating the same targets at same levels.

Again, the proposal is a [b][u]suggestion[/u][/b] that may provide means of balancing things in game. Edited by Logane
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[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1341025555' post='59846']
be as p'o'd as you want, suggestions are what a Suggestion forum is for. As I've said before, it's not all about raiding, 99% of the game is not raiding. Your PW wasn't killing CL17 at CL5, was it?
[/quote]
correct me if im wrong the Bogeril captain uses Beams so IF my PW at cl 5 with boost pl range that truly can be found/bought (to lazy to check it out atm) would go to wittberg she could solo a cl 17. Only my new JD (i just started two weeks ago ) would be toast if i try. If the Boger captain uses pl too it would be difficult-impossible. I agree with u that a Terran has a advantage here against the other 2 warrior classes + he doesnt have to face the enemy. But if u take the said equipment (harrier has bad sig problems) the chance to get more unwanted guest is really good and another 17 or just the 11-12 round there, most likely will shredd u to pieces if they get u in range.
the point i have at this dicussion its that every race has thier special behavior/abilities

Progen - better Hulls,more weapon slots,(lvl9 Reactors**only endgame relevant**)
Jenquai - Stealthy hard hitting and recloaking (Assasin style)
Terran - Long range at all Lvl missiles to kite Enemys they cant stand and face till death. most likely the Terran will run out of reactor power at most lvl stages long bevore the enemy is down 50%

Its was said bevore Terrans could use boosters to run away from enemy and let thier shields recharge. If we wanna discuss this point we need a way better recharge on Terran standard shields than it is now or the killing of a lvl even to lets say 3 cl bigger enemy would take longer that kiting him to death now (speaking of model x/y/z shields easiest to get and usefull shields for Terrans). If we would run as a Terran and recharge our shields (alone without a trade class) the mob would recharge his shields too in that time so we would have a 0/0 situation.

Next point i want to mention is that we have 3 Terrans (having a cl 22 scout atm) and with only 3 weaponslots (edgame 4) i can hardly beat up a cl 25 dzurai on my own till it gets into the hull of the scout if i run into its range.

Shure its not the original life game but i liked it as it was and would like to get it back that way. If this discussion leads to the we "shrink the terrans missile range together point" i want to see real alternatives to get that balanced but mostly i only see the "Thas not fair and its booring to play plz plz nerf it posts"


just looked up the items mentioned to kill the cl 17 Boger... the Harrier is sold at 3 stations where a TE only get to if he really looks for the engine if it was a drop u been a real lucker. At 200% rebuild (is that possible at that lvl overall lvl to get engine build that high dont remember) its boost what 20% ml range so a 5k ML does 6k.

Ok even at my eyes that looks a lil long range. If i remember right from life its been 3k Range roundabout at thoose lvls unboosted. And the Missiles with that skill lvl shouldnt hit the Boger or at least dont do nuff dmg to kill him in a resonable time (lets say 15 mins). Edited by Aru
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[quote name='Aru' timestamp='1341068078' post='59888']
<snip for brevite>
[/quote]

FYI, I started in MMOs when an Even mob really meant "he has a 50% chance of kicking your @ss. Make one mistake, OR he gets lucky rolls, and you're prolly gonna die. Shouldabroughtagroupstupid. ". So I am all for balancing ANY class that can solo ANYTHING above their level. If your PW can really stand up to a CL17 at CL5 in face-to-face combat, I'm down for fixing that problem too. I just haven't played a PW recently so I don't have the knowledge to make any suggestions.

I just want to make it clear, I am not picking on Terrans. I just made a thread and then joined this one to highlight the problem I see specifically with Terrans after playing one in the past to CL30s and now playing (well, playTESTing) another. Since I have a couple of Jenqs, I am in other threads pointing out how combat cloak let my CL10 JE solo every CL15 in a 6-mob group without any risk, and offering suggestions about fixing THAT little issue.

Re your suggestions, I am totally cool with everything you said. If Terrans need shield recharge buffs to survive fighting within an equal level mob's range, let's do it. If they need increased missile damage at shorter ranges to balance out decreased damage at longer ranges, let's do it. If they need a Ludicrous Speed device so they can zoom straight down a mob's throat for a firing run and overrun them into the mob's blind spot to disengage, let's do it.

Whatever makes the Terrans (or any race) kick@ss fun to play, I'm down for.

Just a note, MLammo ranges start at 4.8k. L1 ML-X1 explosive rocket, the one the intro guys have you build for yourself. Hence my suggestion that maybe the ranges should scale with equipment level.

But maybe the ranges, including the amount of equipment buff applied, should scale with skill level like the damage does now? That way the high-end content is unaffected, but the low-mid level gets a big balance pass. I still favor bigger hits at a longer cycle time though. Progens should be DPS kings, but Terrans should have the knockout punches that are big enough to cancel the recharge time. Just imo ofc.

*another note ofc I went looking for the Harrier engine. It's the recommended one for TE, everyone in chat will tell you that. I agree it would be ideal for playtesting if we just took whatever starting gear we got and tried things, but the current environment just dumps the optimal builds on you. TE gets sent right to Zwei/ Witberg on missions, and there's an AP gate right there, so I said to myself "hey, it's an easy hop to Adriel/Parcheezi from here. I'ma go get my intro combat gear right now with the 13k creds left over from building my L2 launchers". I have the engine built to 200% now, plus a Supergiant and a Model X (100% still), but given that the ML range starts at 4.8k, I will bet I can strip down to basic equipment and beat his @ss again any time.
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[quote name='will' timestamp='1340375381' post='59423']
Your max ranges are a little low:
Jenquai max beam range is 8.68k.
Terran max missile range is ~8.5k.
Progen max proj. range is ~6.5k?

[/quote]

Theoretically it is possible to get the range you attribute to the Jenquai with a Proto Beam (3.5k) and a Devastating Gaze (boost beam range 134%).
Also included 15% Vindis Beam Focus Shield at 15% boost beam activated. If there is a better boost beam range on any weapon or device I don't see it. So..

3500 (proto range) + 4690(3500+134%) = 8.190k + 525(3500+15% Vindis Beam Focus Shield) = 8.715. The very most a Jen can get.

However no one runs this setup and especially not in a raid situation. Protos have no buffs and not great DPS so it would be unrealistic to say that any Jenquai would use these beams in a raid or even soloing.

Most commonly beams used by Jenquai Warrior are below and using this set up (including a DG's boost beam buff of 134%) we have,

Glare of Devastation (2100) + (2814) = 4.914K
Devastating Gaze (2000) + (2680) = 4.680K

Black Streak (2000) + (2680) = 4.680K
Ghost's Edge (1900) + (2546) = 4.446K
Defender's Pride (1900) + (2546) = 4.446K

In order to fire all of the beams and not just the GoD beam a JD would need to be within 4.45K of the mob. This is realistically a Jenquai's max beam range.

As well in Live, beams did 50% damage at their maximum range. Currently it does not matter how close or how far away a Jenquai is from the mob as all damage is subject to random damage.


From the Dev Update in Live.


[size=4][color=#000000][font=Arial][color=#FFFFFF]Answer: Okay, for this one I spoke with Paycheck Bingo to get some answers because he can look directly into the code and tell me what happens. Here's what he had to say:[/color][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][color=#FFFFFF]"The Improved Missile/Projectile/Beam Handling (equip) effects do two things: increase your effective weapon skill level and increase the (average) damage done by the beam or ammo.[/color][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][color=#FFFFFF]Missiles work a little differently than beams and projectiles. Beams and projectiles test your weapon skill values against a number based on how close to the target you are. Increasing these values with buffs will help you hit more often. High level players and MOBs don't miss very often, so the value of this portion of the buff is admittedly questionable at high levels. Missiles test the maneuverability of the missile (the ammo) against that of the target. It doesn't use the player's weapon skill, so this portion of the buff does not affect the chances of hitting with a missile. This is one of the downsides to missiles to offset the advantages of long-range and not having to face the enemy. The damage increasing component of these buffs works similiarly for all types of weapons and is responsible for the majority of the increase in DPS when using these buffs."[/color][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Arial][color=#FFFFFF]So, the important part of the buff for higher level players is the increase in average damage. The skill value increases are important for the lower level players.[/color][/font][/color][/size]
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[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1341210490' post='59993']
[/quote]

Actually it is realistic, and quite decent dps, its just simpler to auto-follow than to kite.
Anyway, shouldn't these range buff's represent our ability to hit at an increased range, not the actual weapons range, especially for beams/projectiles?
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[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1341210490' post='59993']
Theoretically it is possible to get the range you attribute to the Jenquai with a Proto Beam (3.5k) and a Devastating Gaze (boost beam range 134%).
Also included 15% Vindis Beam Focus Shield at 15% boost beam activated. If there is a better boost beam range on any weapon or device I don't see it. So..

3500 (proto range) + 4690(3500+134%) = 8.190k + 525(3500+15% Vindis Beam Focus Shield) = 8.715. The very most a Jen can get.

However no one runs this setup and especially not in a raid situation. Protos have no buffs and not great DPS so it would be unrealistic to say that any Jenquai would use these beams in a raid or even soloing.

Most commonly beams used by Jenquai Warrior are below and using this set up (including a DG's boost beam buff of 134%) we have,

Glare of Devastation (2100) + (2814) = 4.914K
Devastating Gaze (2000) + (2680) = 4.680K

Black Streak (2000) + (2680) = 4.680K
Ghost's Edge (1900) + (2546) = 4.446K
Defender's Pride (1900) + (2546) = 4.446K

In order to fire all of the beams and not just the GoD beam a JD would need to be within 4.45K of the mob. This is realistically a Jenquai's max beam range.

As well in Live, beams did 50% damage at their maximum range. Currently it does not matter how close or how far away a Jenquai is from the mob as all damage is subject to random damage.

[/quote]

Jen's initial strike needs to be within 3.5km at max level as well, to hit the chim, which has a 3.5 range. After that yea, about 4-4.5.
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Yea, I don't really fire until mob is debuffed first.

So to summarize, the weapon skill accuracy is capped at lv. 10, but more handling still increases damage? I don't follow.

The description of the buff, in game, reads as "[b]Increases ________ Accuracy by ___ Skill Level(s) when equipped." [/b]The key word here is "accuracy." Should the description be changed, or should we all assume that more accuracy still increases damage.

I have heard that the highest, effective weapon skill is level 10, could a reliable source please confirm or discredit this statement?
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