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Since IMO, the main flaw that the JT has is the lack of unique things she brings to a group as a supporter, perhaps she could get a device or line of devices with a new effect. The effect would be called dispel, and it would remove debuffs from any player that's targeted. The device may need a short cooldown between uses, but it would be something that's support orientated, a type of heal (since the JT is a trader), and would bring something unique and fitting for the JT to bring that no one else brings to a group.

If anyone else has any ideas for support orientated equipment for the JT, don't be afraid to propose it, but let's stick to possible equipment items/effects that would be used to help other classes in a group or raid setting. Solo play on a JT isn't really a problem, it's group viablity where she's lacking.

Before replying, please remember this thread is NOT about solo play on a JT or her DPS, but how can she help others, in a new and unique way.
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yeah I like that. Would definitely add value to a JT in a group.

We should create a thread with all the neat suggestions like this, with just one idea per post and a short explanation (and link to a more in-depth one if necessary). No more than a short paragraph for the explanation on the thread.

Too many of these ideas become buried.

cheers,

TB
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I'd also suggest that support devices, not just the JT's, not be bound to group membership. In a raid involving multiple groups, the nearest person needing support may not be in the same group as the JT in position to give said support. (This would also apply to the other support classes)
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yup, able to dispel any friendly. What sort of cooldown time/energy useage were you thinking of ? Also if we make it a line of devices there'd need to be some kind of improvement throughout the line.

Maybe the first 3 levels can only dispell one effect, and are limited to certain kinds of debuff, like resists. The next 3 can take out 2 effects and can do resists and also speed debuffs. Maybe the highest level can dispel all buffs of any kind.

That leads naturally to group dispel and also protection against debuffs, possibly a new JT psionic skill ?
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I'm not sure how long a cool down should take. I was thinking of said cool down if it were necessary to keep it from being overpowered. Perhaps it could start with a time frame comparable to whatever is intended for typical buff/debuff devices and adjust as necessary. I do like the idea of improving the device line as it increases in level. I could also see Dispel being a L135 Affiliation skill, instead of a line of devices. I wasn't thinking of the JT using it as an AOE type of thing, but instead something she uses in a stealthy fashion. With only L8 shields, and the level of aggro that an AOE skill would draw, I'd think that the JT should tend to avoid using AOE as much as possible and try to assist other players as stealthily as possible.
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Ideas:
If Device Line:
L3: 1 Debuff
L4: 1 Debuff Groupwide

L5: 2 Debuffs
L6: 2 Debuffs Groupwide

L7: 3 Debuffs
L8: 3 Debuffs Groupwide

L9: 4 Debuffs Groupwide

If Skill:
L1: First skill - 1 Debuff Self only
L2: +1 Debuff
L3: Second skill - 1 Debuff Any Player
L4: +1 Debuff, (3 for T1 skill, 2 for T2 skill)
L5: Third skill - 1 Debuff Any Player, +50 Psi resist(5-10sec)
L6: Fourth skill - 1 Debuff (1.5k Area), +20 Psi resist(5-10sec)
+1 Debuff, (4 for T1 skill, 3 for T2 skill, 2 for T3 skill)
L7: Fifth skill - 2 Debuffs (3.0k Area), +30 Psi resist(5-10sec)
L8(item-buffed): +1 Debuff (5 for T1 skill, 4 for T3 skill, 3 for T3 skill, 2 for T4 skill, 3 for T5 skill)
L9(item-buffed): -
L10(item-buffed): 5 for T1 skill, 5 for T2 skill, 4 for T3 skill, 2 for T4 skill, 4 for T5 skill)

Energy Cost and Activation time exact same as Recharge Shields.
Maxed out with a +skill item buff, L6 would remove 2 in half the time the L7 would remove 4, same as L6 Shield Recharge restores half the amount of L7 in half the time.

I don't know if that would be too many debuff's being removed, though it would enable a JS to commit to keeping the group clean with another healer already present.
I wouldn't have it check debuff type, how severe a debuff is largely depends on what class/race/play-style it's used against.
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If it ran from L3-L9 then L3-L6 could just have the Dispel (activated), L7-L9 would then have a 2nd buff, but an equip one. The range of the activated effect could increase as higher device level is earned. The range could be comparable to the Coma device of the same level, the energy use could be about 5% higher than other debuffs used, like the Manticore, Coma, or Chim of the same level. I'd have the device, even at L9 be single target, but I'd agree, that the higher level ones should be able to clear more debuffs per shot than the lower level ones.

I'd suggest that the devices be manufacturable, but have to be looted. Sentinels wouldn't be able to build them, but all the other device builders could if they had the print. Some ABC parts should be used in assembly.
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I love this idea. Buffer/Debuffer classes in other MMOs are always my favorite to play. Doom medic and smuggler in SWG being of particular <3

I mean terrell seems to be portaying the idea of a debuff clearer and thats sweet, but maybe even take it a step further to having innate debuffs applyable to the enemy. Maybe two skills. One that applies a random debuff or something that makes sense, and a debuff removal tool. Make the JT the perfect complement to a healer team with TT/PP.
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I was thinking the same thing Ryle. What's that about great minds? LOL I feel sorry for you if you actually do think like me :P

Probably just too much Baldur's Gate - the wizard's buff's/debuff's were usually more valuable than their direct damage attacks. Apart from Abu-Dabi's horrid wilting, which was just plain awesome.

That reminds me of a joke -

Did you hear that they're going to make a middle eastern version of the Flintstones?

Ya, Dubai don't like it, but Abu-Dabi do!
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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1329529736' post='53924']
I was thinking the same thing Ryle. What's that about great minds? LOL I feel sorry for you if you actually do think like me :P

Probably just too much Baldur's Gate - [b]the wizard's buff's/debuff's were usually more valuable than their direct damage attacks. [/b]Apart from Abu-Dabi's horrid wilting, which was just plain awesome[b].[/b]

That reminds me of a joke -

Did you hear that they're going to make a middle eastern version of the Flintstones?

Ya, Dubai don't like it, but Abu-Dabi do!
[/quote]

The bolded is what I think should be the case for the JT. Since she's not meant to have much firepower, she should bring some unique things that are more valuable than the meager firepower of her 4 L9 Beams or L8 Projectile Launchers. The Scout will need similar love.

I don't know if the devs are able to add additional skills to the JT, she already has the same number of skills as the original 6 classes. Not including the L1 skills that Grandmasters & Magisters Magna get. That's why I proposed a device.
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I think there was talk of dropping a build skill to be in between TT/PP build skills, TT should have it in # of builds, PP less since they are combat traders, ahem "privateers" :
) and JS less combat more jenquia sneak. Perhaps both devices ans skills should be introduced for JS dispelling, a innate skill and then intensifying devices. Were the devices would extend either the number of dispels or the duration of reapplication of debuff resistance.

I would make the skill run like other heals, tier 1 self target, 2 stronger, 3 friendly targets, top 2 lvls group based. The devices would tier up the skill/ lower activation times, and at 7-9 second device buffs second would be active additional dispel effects (i.e. dispel any random other debuff on target). As all L9 have a negative buff (and some really bad too!) it should be add sig. . or something really undesirous to a jenquia, but overcomable in group.

There mosr definitley needs to be a cooldown or charge up to either/both so its not OP from spammability.
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In terms of building the traders rank TT>JT>PT. TT cannot build reactors, JT cannot build shields or Progen equipment, PT cannot build Devices, Engines, or Jenquai equipment. TT has Negotiate 7, PT & JT Negotiate 5. If it's necessary to remove a build from the JT to give her another support skill, engines would probably be the choice of skill to remove, as it's likely the least useful of her builds. Dropping a skill would make her equal to the PT.

If we can get around the need for another skill, though the use of devices, then it would be better and we could avoid debates on skill loss.

L9 devices with debuffs also add a positive buff at L9. I was hoping to get around the debuff problem, by not adding a 3rd positive buff to the device. Also if the Seeker has to have a sig debuff on a L9 dispel device, she'd just use the L8 one and be done with it.

Don't expect Jenquai who survive by stealth to equip anything that's going to give them a high sig during a raid or combat. JEs for example don't really need a L9 Sculptor, since they can hit the skill cap with a L7 one (no PM required), use a L8 Golden Tooth (which also gives fast tractor beam) or use a L8 Veiled Oyoroi shield.
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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1329547439' post='53944']
L9 devices with debuffs also add a positive buff at L9. I was hoping to get around the debuff problem, by not adding a 3rd positive buff to the device. Also if the Seeker has to have a sig debuff on a L9 dispel device, she'd just use the L8 one and be done with it.
[/quote]

Their loss. With very few exceptions, the debuffs on L9 devices aren't worth worrying about.

[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1329547439' post='53944']

Don't expect Jenquai who survive by stealth to equip anything that's going to give them a high sig during a raid or combat.
[/quote]

It only affects the base sig., +30% signature is +.15k for a Jenquai, it won't make any difference. It's progen and terran that get hit with it, at +.75k and +1.05k sig.
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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1329529736' post='53924']
I was thinking the same thing Ryle. What's that about great minds? LOL I feel sorry for you if you actually do think like me :P

Probably just too much Baldur's Gate - the wizard's buff's/debuff's were usually more valuable than their direct damage attacks. Apart from Abu-Dabi's horrid wilting, which was just plain awesome.

That reminds me of a joke -

Did you hear that they're going to make a middle eastern version of the Flintstones?

Ya, Dubai don't like it, but Abu-Dabi do!
[/quote]

When it comes to how I like a game to be, I think from the group role standpoint. The game has plenty of DPS/TANK/HEAL profs, what it needs is a solid support/debuff profession.

PW Tank/DPS/Crowd Control
TE Tank/DPS/mild buffer
PP DPS/Healer
JD DPS/Unique movement skills
TT Healer
JE Action (reactor) Battery/Support group buffs/Rezzer
PS DPS/Rezzer
JS ????? (make this guy your offensive/defensive debuffer primary like the TT is primary healer with PP backup) maybe 2 of each debuff and debuff removers/buff enhancers
TS Not sure what this prof is, other than speed machine so maybe make it the debuff secondary like the PP is for healing, since its so fast it has its own benefits outside of debuffs) 1 of each?

the two question marks should be your offensive and defensive buff and debuff professions. Everything else is covered heathily by at least two proffesions. I mean we have 5 DPS professions, 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 group support, but the wild card classes dont exist. Edited by Ryle
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PM debuffers are spread around, but Jenquai arguably get the best ones, with the Coma (scan blind) & Chimaera (weaken Plasma). Terrans can debuff Impact (Gorgon), Progen can debuff Chemical (Basilisk). Explorers also can debuff Explosive (salamander), traders can debuff energy (Manticore), warriors can debuff EMP (Wyvern). TT also gets a Psionic debuffer (Profiler). JE gets slow weapons though the Lodestar devices but they are a big PITA to build as they require a sturdy solar panel.

Same applies to PM buff devices. I do think that the Seeker & Scout should play a bigger role as buffer/debuffer than they already do, just that some new buffs/debuffs need to be added since many of the possible buffs/debuffs are taken.

Take a look at the N7 Database, there are new categories for items there. Robot, Sensor, Countermeasure, System(s), & Ejector are new, and don't currently have items that fall into those categories. I'd have thought Systems were devices, but devices are already listed. Maybe some of those new things will be new things that JTs and Scouts can do.
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Why not implement a Payday skill or device strictly for the JT and when solo or in a group you target a mob, The skill just allows the mob when dead to dispense a better range of credits to just the player if solo or to entire group because looting a mob and getting 500 credits that was cl 50+ doesn't seem to be a worthy amount to a group of players as is.

Sense the JT is part trader increase credit amount when killing mobs would fit it's role nicely and if the JT builds the effect, then the more bonus credits you get from killing mob. The JT doesn't need to relay on job terminals all the time to make credits or sell loot like progen to make credits it could be part of it's profession. The benefit of this ability is to bring in more players that are tired of running jobs or earning credits the normal way and helps to provide group therapy while enjoying prosperous player to player interactions. :D If I'm a te and I know this JT has the ability to increase my profits from killing just mobs, while the JT can benefits from the te's combat xp, then both benefits would connect in fair play I believe.

If progens can't build Jenquai stuff then the same should go for the JT if any new build skills are added to it. That only helps to balance the game ofcourse.
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Orga, what's so bad about the JT having something unique to make her desirable to a group? Each of the original classes has a clearly defined role in a group. The JT happens to be lacking there. Can you state a good reason to bring a JT to a raid, on her existing abilities, that you can't get from another class? TT can recharge shields + hull patch, JE can play battery bot, and buff your reactor and JS you when down, PT can recharge shields and contribute firepower. Where does that leave the JT?

Edit: Also in this thread, no one is arguing that the JT should be able to build Progen equipment, or even adding a build skill to the JT. I was asking whether or not it would be necessary to take a build skill away, to make the JT group viable. Should there be another skill, rather than using devices, to give the JT some unique abilities as a support toon? Each class must bring something special to the table for group combat. Ryle lays this out quite well in post 14. The JT and Scout, clearly come up lacking when we look for unique & useful abilties.

In one question:

What does a Seeker (Scout) bring to a group, that the group needs, that's not available from some other class?

Currently the answer to that question is nothing as applied to the JT. That needs to be fixed. Edited by Terrell
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so the questions we need to resolve are:

1. Should this be an item effect or a new skill? I am leaning toward a new skill myself.
2. Should there be positive buffs too? If so should these be JT-only items? Should the TT and PT also be able to use them?
3. What, if any, form should the debuff's take? Are these item based?

I'm a little confused now ... We gotta work out which should be a skill, and which item effects. Perhaps even 2 new skills if the JT is going to be the buff/debuff expert, something like buff item handling or something.

If anything is going to come of this we need to decide how it will all work.
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My vote would be Skill.
Taking a build skill, so that TT is the consimate builder and PP/JT next best.
There should also be a line of devices that inhance that skill, like other trader only devices that TT have, the TT profiler and guardian etc. have side buffs for trader and then a TT skill, profiler buff befriend and another skill, guardian buff like roadrunner and shield charging (formally only a TT skill that other traders now have). The new line of JT devices should have a JT skill enhancement, and a trader skill enhancement.

At L9 the devices should have a 2nd JT skill, 1 trader skill, and 1 debuff like other PM L9 devices, the debuff should be in line like other PM L9, the debuff should be not so bad they don't use it, but enough that they might gear to get around, and the debuff should be like others, the debuff be towards the primary class users strengths, like progen ones muddle projectiles or reactor charge etc. and terran ones muddle missles or reduce shield etc., so JT should be sig. or beam range etc.

On the other trader usable, there needs to be 2 lines of devices like other classes use, one would be clearly JT only with a trader skill like recharge shields or reactor buff, this would be like TT profiler line. Then the second line would be usable by other traders with 1 of the buffs trader, but the second buff not for them but JT, this would be like guardian line devices, one of the buffs CAN be used by other traders but the JT buff not usable by them.

Of the 2 lines of devices, the JT portion of buffs, 1 line needs to buff the JT up skill lvl, thereby making the skill charge up faster/more potent, the second line would add something like duration of skill, say the dispell gave 30 sec.of debuff resistance from the mob application, the device would extend that 30 sec. Edited by Mattsacre
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I was thinking a device, since I didn't think that the JT could get another skill without losing a skill. Not to mention, she's going to need some new devices, and some new things that no one else brings. The JT's primary weakness in a group, is that she's redundant, and doesn't bring anything that cannot be obtained elsewhere.

While I'd prefer the device only get one other buff, I could live with the traditional device pattern, so long as the debuff isn't too bad. Debuffs like more device/reactor damage is on a few of our devices, and can be lived with, worsen beam handling/range won't be used. Increase mass isn't too bad either.

If she's to get another combat skill, I think it should be something better than what I've proposed, here but the only thing I can think of was the Confusion skill I mentioned in Lannister's JT feedback thread. That would be an attack skill that JTs could use against mobs, to make them less effective in their combat (would have the same range as the same level of Summon as applied to enemies and have an energy requirement a little lower than the same level of recharge shields).

[url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/4781-jenqual-seeker/page__view__findpost__p__42903"]https://forum.enb-emu...dpost__p__42903[/url]

I could live with the JT losing build Engines, but I do think that she should bring some device effects that only she can bring, much like only the JE can transfer reactor energy to another class via PM devices. The JT will need some unique effects, to make up for her lack of hull patch, and lack of firepower.

Edit: No the PT and TT should not have this effect. The whole point of it is to make the JT less redundant, giving this to any other class, defeats the purpose of this proposal.

The traders already share a PM energy debuffer. The Manticore line. Each trader should have their own exclusive devices, as well as some shared devices, but there must be some things that are unique to each trader.
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I explained it wrong perhaps terrell,

There should be TWO destinct device lines.
Line one is JT all the way only JT can use, sort of like TT's profiler line..the buffs are all TT, so too the JT device all JT buff. The JT line L2-4: 1 buff,L5,6 gets second JT buff 1 debuff, L7,8: 2 buffs no debuff, L9 3 buffs 1 debuff.
Line two device is JT and at L5,6 second buff offers a trader only skill, like charge shield skill increase or RR buff/unicorn. This is in line with Guardian devices, at L5+ shield charge buff comes into play.
While most traders wouldn't equip. line two except JT, they might equip it at L5+ like they do guardian for the singular buff, forgoing the JT buff.

With that, it would put it in line with existing patterns of device mapping, one line strickly for a class, second line with additional buffs that another class might utilize.

The JT only line should have the buffs that makes the JT non-redundant, i.e. you want those buffs? You got to take the JT.
The second lines additional buff should be something achievable otherwise, but other traders might want. Sort of like TT warp buff/ or kraken/unicorn example, would be nice to have, but I can get this another way. Edited by Mattsacre
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Even with 5 builds in both the TT and JT the TT is still the better builder. Only TTs can build equipment from all 3 races, the other 2 traders are each restricted from one race's items. The TT is also the only class that gets Max Negotiate, Scout, Enforcer, Seeker, and Privateer only get L5.

If the JT is to lose a build skill, which one would other posters prefer? Definitely not Reactors, that's the only thing she can build that the TT cannot. Weapons is one of the biggest markets, and doesn't make sense for a Trader not to participate. JT is the explore orientated trader, and the only trader to get L9 devices. Jenquai L30 mission also requires build devices. Components is trader only. IMO that leaves Engines. This also means that all engine building will be done by Terrans, but I don't think that's too bad.


Edit: Matt, I can agree with that. I do think that the PT and JT should have their versions of the RR activated device, and there are other devices that may make sense too. I'd leave the Psionic debuffer as TT only. (I also think that the Scout should get their own version of the Miner/Sculptor line too). Edited by Terrell
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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1329782109' post='54113']
1. Should this be an item effect or a new skill? I am leaning toward a new skill myself.
[/quote]
Whether a skill or activated device would be better really depends on how numerous and aggressive mob debuffs are going to be, and how effective the JT should be at countering them. Right now the only existing debuffs are those applied by poprocks, and the 3(-speed, -impact, -explosive) applied by gravity link. Both the item and skill would be quite useless right now, though could be very desire-able once mob debuffs are fully implemented. I also think that a build skill should be dropped, if any.
[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1329782109' post='54113']
2. Should there be positive buffs too? If so should these be JT-only items? Should the TT and PT also be able to use them?
3. What, if any, form should the debuff's take? Are these item based?
[/quote]
Should an activated device be chosen, I would not allow the TT/PP access to it, as that would defeat the point of giving the JT something unique.
Whether a skill or activated effect is chosen, the device should follow the standard layout:
Primary Effect = a +skill levels buff, or the activated effect itself, depending on which is chosen.
L3/4: Primary Effect
L5/6: Primary Effect, Secondary Buff, Undesired Debuff
L7/8: Primary Effect, Secondary Buff
L9: Primary Effect, Secondary Buff, Tertiary Buff, Manage-able debuff
Secondary Buff Suggestion: Shunt to Reactor (Equip) - Only trader without access to this buff currently.
Undesired Debuffs: Beam Friction, Slow Beam, Reduce Beam Range, Cripple Reactor, Weaken Deflects
Manage-able Debuffs: Increase Mass, Increase Warp Cost, Slow Warp, Weaken Psionic
Tertiary Buff Suggestion: Scan Boost, Reactor Recharge, Equipment Damage Control -
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