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Dragonsmurf

Controller Raid

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Try this:
Delete all the boss mob timer spawns from the server.
Since Net-7.org, the forum boards and EnBEMU are all tied in together, have a separate registration section within the portal that could represent each boss mob where anyone could sign up to conduct and lead a raid. Have a moderator randomly select a "Lottery Winner", and post the winners name so that the next event registration could then begin. Moderator would contact that winner via PM or email and make arrangements for Dev magic to spawn the raid. Raiders could check here daily to plan ahead. The raid wouldnt need to happen instantly, ie. the raid winner could be granted a raid to take place the following week within a windowed time frame to give him time to gather up a capable raidforce and would give average Joe a chance to commit to said raid. With the server population modestly low, it doesnt seem necessary to have raids constantly and would put much more value/rare on a nice piece. Of course, if enough people sign up, raids could indeed still happen daily or every other day or every third day, just would be lead by a different winner each time. Just have the winners time-slot be a week out for server side preparation.
I know this sounds like alot of footwork for the devs but i believe it would be fun for all involved. I actually think the devs would get a kick out of this.
It would take away from people being left out of anything.
I know this idea is a stretch but I hope to see everyone happy and satisfied. I would hate to see my fav game go by the wayside because some people are having issues with the current setup. Whenever i read post's like this one where folks are upset, I worry that the Dev team will someday just throw their hands in the air and walk away.
[b]GALI[/b]

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Gali your idea I sort of like, I perceive one big problem *scheduling*
*Wait had to back edit* 2 problems :) *alt. account toons/multi boxs*

The lotto winner would have to pick a time, they would then have to get others commited to that time, if they picked a bad time for the rest of the group/raid then they would either have to reschedule (if the GMs let them) or run with what they could with a PUG.
The time frame they picked would have to be convenient to a GMs schedule to start it for them, since all the GM/Dev are volunteer, and almost all of them have other jobs and real life responabilities, they don't have log on schedules or monitoring duties.
A lotto winner could put in for say 8pm on tues., get his group together, and then be stuck twiddling their thumbs waiting for a GM to log on to start it for them, since the GM might have RL intrustions he/she could be late or not log on at all.

How about my counter proposal: a key item award. Make it tradable. The lotto winner would get the right via the key to start the raid at thier time frame, if for some reason they aren't of sufficent skill, or have time to run it, they can hand of the key to someone of their choosing to do so. this would allow them to get a grouop of their choosing together on a time convenient to them, and not be dependant on a volunteer GM/Dev's limited time frame to activate it.

If the key isn't tradable, then the winner of it might not even be able to use it becuase of skill or grouping issues. If its tradable then being a lotto system the bigger guilds aren't going to lose out so bad on the odds of getting the key because of member rolls and even the lonewolf might get a lucky draw and get a shot. I'm thinking the bigs might have a problem with this idea, let them counter propose if so.

For those with 3 accounts and 5 toons ea they are going to have 15 tickets in the lotto, those with 1 account and 1-5 toons they are going to have only 1-5 tickets, this don't seem so fair. Don't know how, but they would have to go to the trouble of verifying only 1 ticket per IP (and what about those that share computers, how do you let them in lotto without discluding them on IP verification).

Even though its TOS breaker, there may be those that work around with IP disguisers also and game the system.

But other than those 2 a lotto is cool.
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I would not say it needs locked as such although those who have made their point already might to well to back off and let others make theirs, making the thread more readable for new posters as well.

The main message I believe developers need to take from this and have a think about is that there are two groups of players who want the same thing but in different ways. There used to be 4 servers, some with big guilds (Orion, Andromeda) and some with more of a public group effort (Galileo, Pegasus). People ultimately had a choice to play how they wanted, especially after server transfer was introduced. Now everyone has moved in together on Sunrise. It is still just the testing phase so ultimately at this point people may just need to learn to get on together, but as the game progresses it could become a problem.

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I haven't gotten to raiding yet in the EMU, but I raided in live and have raided some in other MMO's as well, so I'd like to express my opinion on the matter.
The main points that I have found in this thread are:
1. Raids are divided between large guilds, making it harder for smaller guilds and unaffiliated players to get a shot.
2. The large guilds have an advantage in camping for raids since they have the manpower to keep track of the spawns.
3. Triggers to existing raids may provide a solution to all these problems, but may create others.
Here are my opinion on these matters:
1. As far as I'm concerned, anyone not in the large guilds are not part of the agreement to divide the raids, and are therefore free to compete with the large guilds for the raids. If the players not part of the large guilds think the large guilds are hogging all the action, they could band together to get their piece of the action.
2. One way to make camping equal for everyone would to put the spawn timers on the Net-7 Portal. If I had a say in the matter I would alse change the way timed spawns work. I would put it on a fixed rotation and shrink the randomness to a few hours. Raids that were designed to be done once a day I would put on a 21 hour rotation, so it would occur 8 times in a week. The spawn window would be the last 3 hours of the 21 hour rotation, but the exact spawn time would not affect the next rotation, so each day of the week would have it's own 3 hour period when the raid could spawn. A schedule with the spawn windows could then be put on the Net-7 Portal to make planning raids easier. The schedule could be changed randomly at each server restart not to make it too static.
3. I'm all for adding a trigger to raids that were previously on a timer. I would not like another trigger like the fish bowl however. Excessive camping to limit supply belongs in the past as far as I'm concerned. I would much rather have a trigger that's easily obtained but can't be made too often. I'm not sure exactly how this could be accomplished, but maybe one way would be to put a critical component as a reward on a mission that can only be completed once a week per account (or once a month per character). Putting a level 135+ requirement on the mission should keep people from creating more accounts or alts just to get hold of more keys.

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I am not going to add much more to this but wanted to reply to your point number 1.

Yes, the small guilds could form up into some form of an alliance, in effect being a large guild themselves. The problem is many do not want to compete with other players in order to compete with the environment. There is nothing to stop the large guilds, who are likely to be able to bring more firepower from taking the kill anyway. This drastically changes the encounter and the experience for all involved.

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[quote name='Ninjabadger' timestamp='1329818116' post='54165']
I am not going to add much more to this but wanted to reply to your point number 1.

Yes, the small guilds could form up into some form of an alliance, in effect being a large guild themselves. The problem is many do not want to compete with other players in order to compete with the environment. There is nothing to stop the large guilds, who are likely to be able to bring more firepower from taking the kill anyway. This drastically changes the encounter and the experience for all involved.
[/quote]
It depends on the size of the large guilds. If each of the large guilds can muster more players than all the players not in one of them, the large guilds could be jerks and deny the rest the chance. If the other players are so few, some of the large guilds may be decent enough to include a few outsiders each time... If not, the rest may have to work for it, but eventually they will get a kill. Raid gear is rare and usually takes an effort to get. Not everyone in a large guild gets something out of every raid either...

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You are missing my point.

The fun for some is a team effort against the environment, not a form of competition against other players. It is how some want the game to be and how they want to play it. This opportunity is being either denied, gated or being made more difficult by others. Hence why I am suggesting people look for an alternative mechanic whereby people can all play the game how they want. This could be an alliance taking a rotation slot, although see my earlier point about not wanting to have to do it every week or being able to do it every week.

Forget the loot for a moment as well, it is about solving the puzzle, following the story and completing the encounter like the big guilds did when they first attempted it, before they had it on farm mode.

If it is how the developers want the game then fine, but they need to say so to remove ambiguity and let people know where they stand, like Eve does. It was not like this however in live, at least on some servers. I know that is not practical right now but there are other ways. It is discussing these ways which work for everyone which I believe is best, not each group trying to convince the other. That will never work.

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[quote name='Ninjabadger' timestamp='1329822789' post='54170']
You are missing my point.

The fun for some is a team effort against the environment, not a form of competition against other players. It is how some want the game to be and how they want to play it. This opportunity is being either denied, gated or being made more difficult by others. Hence why I am suggesting people look for an alternative mechanic whereby people can all play the game how they want. This could be an alliance taking a rotation slot, although see my earlier point about not wanting to have to do it every week or being able to do it every week.

Forget the loot for a moment as well, it is about solving the puzzle, following the story and completing the encounter like the big guilds did when they first attempted it, before they had it on farm mode.

If it is how the developers want the game then fine, but they need to say so to remove ambiguity and let people know where they stand, like Eve does. It was not like this however in live, at least on some servers. I know that is not practical right now but there are other ways. It is discussing these ways which work for everyone which I believe is best, not each group trying to convince the other. That will never work.
[/quote]
Ok, I missed the point.

I think what you're asking for is next to impossible without instancing, which we don't have in this game. No matter what, newcomers are very unlikely to get the opportunity to complete the encounter as if it were for the first time. There's almost always going to be someone there looking for loot who's done it before.

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Not if they are triggered.

World drops, from some type of enemy (like any red dragon bot thing). Not something that can be camped but something people have to invest time in. Either or in addition to that (if its even possible) some kind of mass quest hand in of large quantities of a common resource (again not camp-able).

When triggered would it be possible to set loot rights to the activator, not anyone else? That way a kill steal can be avoided.

In order to not affect the game for large guilds (they want to play the game in a way they want too) the timed spawns could be left in place and run by rotation. The drop rate of rare components and/or the frequency one player can hand the quest in could be adjusted as to not make the raid too common. Even once per character (lvl 150) every 1-3 months would give an alliance of small guilds a chance to do the encounter a few times on their terms. Players could optionally be limited to doing no more raids than they currently could in a set time to avoid it being farmed. Alternatively the loot drop rates could be adjusted so that drops are as common as they are now albeit spread.

I know it is not a perfect solution but it is a starting point and I do think something is possible to keep everyone say 90% happy.

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The larger guilds have made this pact of assigned raid days as to not interfere with [b][u]each other[/u][/b], since they are all powerful enough to take each raid at any given Boss spawn. It has nothing to do with pick- up groups. If the larger guild shows up to raid on their pre-determined raid day and there is already a group or two of random players raiding on the mob, it has been decided, also within the pact, that they will not fire upon any part of the raid. This is THE most important part of that pact so that ANY group of players can take on a raid if they are capable of doing so. This is what is keeping it fair for everybody else to have a crack at raiding. No one is swooping in to kill steal any raid mobs. And if they are doing so, then they are in violation of their own agreement. And that is not going to happen. 99.9% of the player-base are happy to be playing EnB and I am sure of it that everyone wants to have a peaceful community as it stands now.
[b]GALI[/b]

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yea that was the excuse given in live too a lot of the time "we only do this so the big guilds arent fighting over stuff"
but the moment a smaller guild would try, one of the big ones would swoop in, take everything and then gloat and or complain someone was on their turf

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Sorry Gali, I'm quite sure the intent is there, but in practice it's not happening. The pact has the purest of intentions, I'm confident in that, knowing some of the members of those guilds as I do. Those guys wouldn't sign on if it was exclusionary to others. It's when it is put in practice that it fails, the pact has fostered the belief that it's "their" raid on such and such a time, and anyone else attempting it at that time are interlopers and it is fair to KS it from them since it's "their" raid that day. This I have seen and experienced personally.

The pact is/was a laudable idea to stop inter guild friction, and probably does between the pact signers, in practice it fails when applied to non-pact signators, the spirit of the pact isn't adhered to.

Communism is a wonderful CONCEPT, you work hard and produce as much of whatever you do best, using only what you need for yourself, and turning your excess over to the rest of community for thier needs, and everyone else does the same, it's when it is APPLIED that it breaks down.

Someone will see that they can slide by doing squat and get just as much of what they need, so why work hard? Their neighbor sees that and says why the heck should I break a sweat so that clown can lay about, I'll take it easy myself, soon all output is effected. Now someone has to be in charge making sure everyone else is working to peek performance, but some tasks nobody wants to do..so the new person in charge has to make someone do it, since nobody is volunteering. So the new forced labor guy hates what they are forced to do, they have zero incentive to work hard at a task they dislike, so to increase output the new person in charge has to "incourage" them (torture). The new guy in charge starts to thinking that he deserves just a tad more than everyone else since he is so vital and important after all....

Geez, what happened to the concept of share your excess for the good of all? It crumbled in practice..

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[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1329882722' post='54213']
Sorry Gali, I'm quite sure the intent is there, but in practice it's not happening. The pact has the purest of intentions, I'm confident in that, knowing some of the members of those guilds as I do. Those guys wouldn't sign on if it was exclusionary to others. It's when it is put in practice that it fails, the pact has fostered the belief that it's "their" raid on such and such a time, and anyone else attempting it at that time are interlopers and it is fair to KS it from them since it's "their" raid that day. This I have seen and experienced personally.

The pact is/was a laudable idea to stop inter guild friction, and probably does between the pact signers, in practice it fails when applied to non-pact signators, the spirit of the pact isn't adhered to.

Communism is a wonderful CONCEPT, you work hard and produce as much of whatever you do best, using only what you need for yourself, and turning your excess over to the rest of community for thier needs, and everyone else does the same, it's when it is APPLIED that it breaks down.

Someone will see that they can slide by doing squat and get just as much of what they need, so why work hard? Their neighbor sees that and says why the heck should I break a sweat so that clown can lay about, I'll take it easy myself, soon all output is effected. Now someone has to be in charge making sure everyone else is working to peek performance, but some tasks nobody wants to do..so the new person in charge has to make someone do it, since nobody is volunteering. So the new forced labor guy hates what they are forced to do, they have zero incentive to work hard at a task they dislike, so to increase output the new person in charge has to "incourage" them (torture). The new guy in charge starts to thinking that he deserves just a tad more than everyone else since he is so vital and important after all....

Geez, what happened to the concept of share your excess for the good of all? It crumbled in practice..
[/quote]

OMG are you really comparing ENB raids to communism? That has to be the funniest thing I ever seen. I have an idea for you get off your lazy bum and raid (or we will torture you) because no one is stopping you. Its seems to me that all you want is someone to hold your hand and say comon lets go raid for you! Try playing the game instead of making 4 page long posts that most don't bother to read anyways.

For the love of GOD please lock this post before the free world is invaded and taken over by communists.
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oh look less than 4 pages,(and spaced)
*snicker*

No I didn't compare them,... well sort of.... I was saying that some things break down in function, they sound fantastic on paper..but in practice they are less than optimal,and often suck.

Could have picked socialism.. could have picked any governmental form, they all have some flaw don't they? (got to say, with its flaws, democracy is the best, at least you get a voice)

I want no one to hold my hand, I (and others) have made proposals, for this henious crime there have been flames.

Four page posts not read, *shrug* then they aren't read, and those not reading won't get bent out of shape, if what I have to say offends you so horridly, don't read.

And as to closing a thread, that of course is always up to the mod that has that power, but that once again gets back to what was so bad and offensive that it must be? If you don't like whats on T.V. don't watch T.V., of course you could take the other route and improve what is on T.V............

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even thought there is a pact between some guilds on raids, it does not stop nor has the other guilds interfered with smaller guilds raiding anytime they want to. too much is being made of this and the smaller guilds can always set up for a raid and get players from outside their guild to help out. I for one am always game for a raid outside of my own guild and have helped out others before. Can we just play the game and be thankful its back. btw I have both a tt and pw maxed out to help out. no one owns the raids it set up for all and can be that way,just need alittle planning on the smaller guilds. :)
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Here's a possibility.

What were talking about are ratios, number of guilds/size per spawn times and player/guild numbers increasing exponentially.

It seems that a possible solution when we go live and test this in Beta, may be to re-visit these spawn times and update the spawn times as the number of guilds increase, from 1 a day to two a day etc.

Were talking about a 24 hour time period here and there is ample room for multiple spawn times.

The other aspect that would accompany these spawns would be to code a recognition statement when the spawn appears that would allow a guild 1 activation within a 24 hour period. Recognition might also include a predetermined number of guild tickers to allow for smaller guilds working together.

Code would identity participants by their guild ticker(s).

If said guild(s) had already taken down the spawn within that 24 hour time period or had participated with another guild the spawn would continue but the guild ticker(s) would prevent weapons damage etc to the mob or be disallowed by the spawn in some other manner.

Guild tags might be coded as "Neutral" to the spawn, meaning that those participating in the raid were neutral until recognized.

some of the positive benefits:[list]
[*]end camping
[*]require guilds to monitor their participation times
[*]end agreements that only work for a time and seem to create more division than unity
[*]lessen workloads of GM's having to deal with these situations
[*]reduce lag
[*]improve guild planning activities within and without to other guilds.
[*]create the need for guild reps to work with other guilds in these raid plans
[*]provide additional opportunities for guild officers in these guild relationships.
[*]end the covert raiders (lol)
[/list]

.

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OK to set the record straight, 5 guilds do have an agreement as to the Gobb raid and the controller raid..

Mon - VGE
Tues- Builder
Wed- Static
Thur-Phoenix
Fri- Corporate Raiders
Sat - Sun FFA within this agreement


As for another guild or group that wishes to do these raids on any given day they are free to do so..

We in no way intend to try to dominate any raid in game.. The agreement is one that we all agreed on between the 5 guilds previously mentioned..

If anyone in any of these 5 Guilds have a Problem or Question to this agreement . Please contact your guild leader..

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