Extra Second On Beams + Turbo Reload

[Dragonsmurf]

Fix the reload on the Jenpie beam weps. Not all of the peeps who have a jenpie shoot the same. I have a JD that is capable of 60% turbo and yet my weps are not shooting @ 60% but the timer on the wep is correct for 60% turbo. ie DG 10 sec reload, 60% turbo is 4 sec reload after turbo (pretty simple to figure out 10-(10*0.6)=4 seconds), the timer on the wep says 4 seconds, but when it counts down it goes 4,3,2,1.......... then shoots. everyone of my weapons hangs @ 1 sec for a second during the reload process. Just for a bit of info, sake DO NOT ATTEMPT TO GET ME TO SHOOT LIKE YOU DO. I have Zero issues on the way i am fighting it works for me quite well in fact.

[kjeron]

That's not how Turbo works, its: Relaod / ( 1 + Turbo)
10s / (1 + 0.6)
10s/1.6 = 6.25s

Net DPS increase is equal to the amount of Turbo, in this case +60% DPS.
If it were otherwise, 100% Turbo would reduce the reload to 0 seconds, for an infinite increase.

[Ryle [N7R]]

math is hard

[Mattsacre]

LOL he didn't even get into the equipt vs. active turbo, equipt buffs are calculated first then active are stacked on that, the difference is infintesimal in most cases but on other things it can make a difference, such as equipt resistance buffs then active etc.

Thats why acive turbo on fast reload PL was such a problem for progen, the equip/active drove it below 1 sec. reload in the algorythm they was using and it didn't calculate below 1 sec., I have been informed that this bug has been adressed on the DPS side but not the tool tip side, so while the DPS does calc. out it still shows 1 sec. This would lead to the misunderstanding also for the beams, intuatively you thing 10 sec. minus 60% is 4 sec. but its not so

[Ryle [N7R]]

[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1328162557' post='52895']
LOL he didn't even get into the equipt vs. active turbo, equipt buffs are calculated first then active are stacked on that, the difference is infintesimal in most cases but on other things it can make a difference, such as equipt resistance buffs then active etc.

Thats why acive turbo on fast reload PL was such a problem for progen, the equip/active drove it below 1 sec. reload in the algorythm they was using and it didn't calculate below 1 sec., I have been informed that this bug has been adressed on the DPS side but not the tool tip side, so while the DPS does calc. out it still shows 1 sec. This would lead to the misunderstanding also for the beams, intuatively you thing 10 sec. minus 60% is 4 sec. but its not so
[/quote]

Tell me about it, the old calculations on live before they fixed it had you burning a level 9 reactor in about 10 seconds. Like archos refiring at .3 second intervals (3x a second)

It used to be Refire times 1/turbo percent or something like that. So that it would be like with 50% turbo = 1.4*.5 = .7second reloads X_X. There was a cap at around ,2 IIRC, but it was whacko (this was back in like.... god maybe the first few months of live before the big turbo fix, some might remember) Edited February 2, 2012 by Ryle

[Dragonsmurf]

Just to keep things on track this is not about the turbo, this is about ho our beam weps hang @ 1 second. making a 4 second beam fire @ 5 seconds. I have used PLs on my JD as well (agrippa mission) and the PL's do not have this issue. also fired ML's and they do not hang on 1 sec. Just the beam weapons do.

This does need to be fixed.

[kjeron]

[quote name='Dragonfury' timestamp='1328211407' post='52921']
Just to keep things on track this is not about the turbo, this is about ho our beam weps hang @ 1 second. making a 4 second beam fire @ 5 seconds. I have used PLs on my JD as well (agrippa mission) and the PL's do not have this issue. also fired ML's and they do not hang on 1 sec. Just the beam weapons do.

[/quote]
My point was that its not a 4 second reload after turbo, its only a 6.25s reload.
The Countdown on mouse-over for reload goes like this:
Displays "6" for .25s
Displays "5" for 1s.
Displays "4" for 1s.
Displays "3" for 1s.
Displays "2" for 1s.
Displays "1" for the remaining 2s, totaling 6.25s.
It doesn't display a "0" for the last second.

A 4s reload beam would display:
"3" for 1s.
"2" for 1s.
"1" for 2s.

[Dragonsmurf]

This is not a discussion about turbo, it is about weapons hanging @ 1 second. what part of the English language you don't understand? Also it always rounds up, 4 seconds is actually 3.99-1 rounding up is 4 seconds.


Looks like I will have to make a video of the weapons reload, so you guys can get an idea of what I am talking about.

[Dragonsmurf]

Here is a video of what i am talking about hen it comes to the reload of the weapons hanging @ 1 second. it is best watched @ 1280 x 720, I tries to make the video small enough for everyone to see it. Just fallow the mouse pointer, should be easy enough.[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ats-_lVSZb4&feature=youtu.be"] HERE [/url]

[kjeron]

Again...
Glare of Devastation 40%
+Black Streak 40%
+Plague's Bite 20%
=100% turbo = half reload

Glare of Devastation : 11s/2 = 5.5
5 for .5s
4 for 1s
3 for 1s
2 for 1s
1 for 2s
= 5.5s
Black Streak : 6s/2 = 3s
2 for 1s
1 for 2s
= 3s
Eye of the Fang Field : 7.5s/2 = 3.75s
3 for .75s
2 for 1s
1 for 2s
= 3.75s

[TooTall]

@ Dragonfury

Yes, we all see what you are referring to, the "Hanging" for 2 full seconds at the end of the countdown. It happens when you equip or use something. Since it does not read out in tenths of a second, only whole numbers, from 1.99 seconds to zero, till activation time (almost 2 full seconds) the count down timer will read "1 Sec" and look like it is hanging up. It is not.

If it did read out in 1/10ths of a second (I am NOT advocating a change here) you would see that you are not getting cheated out of a second.

[Falstar [MOD]]

Please remain civil. I see what you are referring to in the video. However, my question is: does this happen without turbo devices? If the answer is no, then I would imagine it has to do with not being rounded to the nearest second. Would you then suggest expanding the countdown to something like this?:

Eye of the Fang Field : 7.5s/2 = 3.75s
4 for .75s
3 for 1s
2 for 1s
1 for 1s
= 3.75s

Although the time would remain the same, it would remove the hanging second (if that's what is going on). Then again, I could see people then saying that their reload it too long, when it is actually still the same.

[Dragonsmurf]

That is still there even if I dont activate the turbo. This is where the problem comes in, I tried this on ML's and Pl's (Same turbo applied) and I dont have the hang up @ 1 second. unlike the beams. so if that is the case then all weapon types should hang up @ one second. the equation for turbo is 7.5-(7.5x0.6)=3, 6-(6x0.6)=2.4, 11-(11x0.6)=4.4. as we can see in the video the timer is pretty much dead on to the math, just that it hangs up at one second.

And when I tried discussing this with others it always lead to a huge discussion how I not shooting right, or I am doing it all wrong. I need to be trained yadda yadda.

[Ryle [N7R]]

Bro, youre taking it the wrong way.
All of us here are seasoned vets, and most are extremely familiar with the math, displays, and how it all works, especially uber turbo nuts like me.

Believe me when I tell you, its working as intended. Id have brought it up long ago if I thought it was actually wrong.

Any percieved delay you are seeing is worked into the system. When you are trying to "time it" with your naked eye or even a stopwatch, youre going to have 3 major factors coming into play: Human Error (delay in processing what you see, or the flick of you finger on the watch), Server latency (distance to server adding miniscule amounts over time to what is happening in game and what is being displayed on your monitor), Video card performance FPS (similar to latency only cause by delays in video frame processing instead of packet transfer time).

The server is processing your information correctly and on time, based on the mechanics that have been explained already in this thread, have no doubt of that.

What you "see" isnt always whats really happening. The eye can decieve severely, especially on older games like this (take wallhacking and LOS exploits on Star Wars Galaxies for example, where someone looks like they are right in front of you but are really behind a wall running around the corner back and forth and your system cant keep up with them. i bring up SWG because the PvP community exploited the hell out of this and there was no way to fix it with the game engine as it was, over 8 years old, just like ENB), and most especially because it is an unfinished emulator bound to do some wonky stuff at times.

The hangup youre seeing is most likely video card delay of the beam graphic going into the render. The damage is applied on time as its supposed to be. Edited February 4, 2012 by Ryle

[Ryle [N7R]]

Also, the delay may very well happen with PLs and MLs, but you wouldnt know it because they take time to hit their targets (charge a Tengu at impulse 500 from 10km out with autofire on and watch 15-20 stacks of projectiles hit it all at once 10 seconds after you start your attack run, to see exactly what im talking about. By the time youre like 1km from the MoB, youve actually OUTRUN your ammo... then you watch half of the Tengu Blights shieldbar disappear in an INSTANT as you fly past it). Beams would be more obvious because they are instantaneous strikes. Edited February 4, 2012 by Ryle

[Tienbau]

also the server tracks when your reload should have taken place allowing for turbo etc. If the firing impluses from the client are delayed from the previous impulse (sudden lag from your connection etc) the server compensates by tallying the time difference. Once this time difference reaches a full weapon cycle the server gives a simultaneous second shot, which is visible.

This ensures your weapons are doing the correct damage over time, even if the reloads are slightly delayed. It only works with autofire though.

[Ryle [N7R]]

The best way to test if youre getting the right damage... is to calculate what your total DPS output should be (yes its A TON of math and best done with no buffs to make the math even more complex) and then test it on a mob with a fairly even number of HP (like 500000 or something) and then time it. Take into consideration their resistances.

Whenever I tested DPS on live (man i was nuts about it, you dont even know how i was lol...) id do this, and it nominally came out within about 5% +/- what i expected it to be, which is a good tolerance range given estimations on MoB resistances, etc. I also did arena testing vs my own guildies that I knew the exact resistance numbers. Those were about the same overall.

Assuming the damage system is calculated the same as live, like input output, everything the same... its gonna be right. Edited February 4, 2012 by Ryle

[Zackman [LDEV]]

[color=#ff0000][b]WARNING:[/b][/color]
[color=#ff0000][b]Long and mathematical posting ahead![/b][/color]





[quote name='will' timestamp='1328151838' post='52888']
That's not how Turbo works, its: Relaod / ( 1 + Turbo)
10s / (1 + 0.6)
10s/1.6 = 6.25s

[b]Net DPS increase is equal to the amount of Turbo, in this case +60% DPS.[/b]
If it were otherwise, 100% Turbo would reduce the reload to 0 seconds, for an infinite increase.
[/quote]

[b]>>Net DPS increase is equal to the amount of Turbo, in this case +60% DPS.[/b]

[b]This is simply wrong -[color=#ff0000] it's mathematical wrong. [/color][/b]
When i reduce something by 60%, i have 40% remaining.

[b]It is a huge difference in math if i ADD 60% (mathematical = *1,6 [/b][size=2][i]rounded[/i][/size][b]) or if i substract 60% (mathematical = / 2,5 [/b][size=2][i]rounded[/i][/size][b])[/b].

If i reduce something by 60%, it equals to dividing by 2.5
[size=3][i](because the remaining amount of 40 - which fits 2.5 times in the original amount of 100).[/i][/size]

But if i [b]ADD[/b] 60%, it equal to multiplicating the original amount by 1.6

The correct formula to re-calculate a[b] percentage reduction[/b] into a [b]correspondending raise[/b] is a very diff. one from the one above.
I am quite a bit shocked to see such basic mathematical mistakes here.

Your mistake is the assumption, if you lower delay by (eg.) 50% it would result in a correspondending 50% damage raise.
The truth is, if you lower the delay by 50%, you get 100% damage raise (damage is doubled now because you fire-rate is doubled by taking 50% from the delay).



The quoted formula would be correct if the item description would read "[b][color=#ff0000]raises[/color] firing rate by 60%[/b]" - but it reads "[b][color=#ff0000]reduces[/color] weapon delay by 60%[/b]" - and thats the huge difference!


[b]Ok, numbers:[/b]
The item description reads [i][b]"reduces weapon delay by 60%".[/b][/i]

If you reduce "something" (weapon delay) by 60%, the mathematical result ends in 40% of the original amount remaining - in other words: you take away 6 parts from ten, 4 remaining.
[i][size=2](If you reduce something by 100% means, there is nothing left).[/size][/i]

Lets assume we have a weapon doing 1 damage point per shot with a reload of 10s.
When we reduce the reload by 60%, we end up shooting all 4s.

10 / 4 = 2,5

We get 2.5 shots off in the same time (10s) now - in other words: The Damage the weapon is doing in 10s is now 2.5 damage points.

So finally we raise the amount of damage dealt in 10s by 2.5 and not 1,6 like in the calculation above.
This is where the difference in percentage addition and substraction becomes weight.





[b]And this brings us to the next "problem":[/b]
I suspect the turbo stacking being also calculated wrong, considering from what i read so far. I dont know the source code at this point so maybe Tien can shed light into the formula.

Turbo stacking should be [b]sequential[/b], currently i suspect it [b]parallel [/b][size=2](wrong)[/size][b].[/b]

Lets say a Weapon with 40% and a PB with 20%.
If the EMU is suming it up to 60%, it's wrong.




Imagine a setup like this:
PJ Flechette L9 = 40% delay reduction (turbo)
Plague Bite = 20% delay reduction (turbo)
PJ Reaver = Increases Projectile Damage by 30.0%

If the [b]turbo-[/b]formula is done like i think, it results in this:
Turbo: 40+20 = 60

Assume a Damage of 100 damage points per round in 1s:
Damage = Damage * 1,6 = 160 Damagepoints per second

If the reaver's damage-raise is done like i think, its like this:
40 + 20 + 30 = 90
Damage = Damage * 1,9
100 Damagepoints * 1,9 = 190 Damagepoints



But the correct formula/way to add is [b]sequential[/b] (DP=damagepoints) and [b]always based on the base (non buffed) damage of weapons![/b]

Weapons-Turbo (40%):
100 DP * ( (100 / (100-turbo) ) - 1 ) = damageAddition1

This equals to: 100 * 0,666667 = 67
[size=2][i]Break down:[/i][/size]
[size=2][i]100-40 = 60[/i][/size]
[size=2][i](100 / 60) - 1 = 0,66667[/i][/size]
[size=2][i]100 * 0,6667 = 67[/i][/size]


2nd buff (Plague bite) added [b]sequential[/b] (based on [b]BASE [/b]damage):
Weapons-Turbo (20%):
100 DP * ( ( 100 / (100-turbo) ) -1 ) = damageAddition2
[size=2][i]Break down:[/i][/size]
[size=2][i]100-20 = 80[/i][/size]
[size=2][i](100 / 80) - 1 = 0,25[/i][/size]
[size=2][i]100 * 0,25 = 25 DP[/i][/size]


Addition:
damageAddition1 (67) +damageAddition2 (25) = 92

[b]The correct new damage at this point is 192 - and not 160 (40+20) like it "could be" (Tien?) now![/b]
This is a diff. of 20% already - which is no "peanuts" considering people hunting for some devices adding 3% more damage....
Or in other word: The "suspected" formula currently used would simply render the PB useless...


[b]Now the damage raise (Reaver, 30%):[/b]
Damage raise is also calculated on the [b]BASE DAMAGE[/b], the turbo will automatically result in more DPS because the [b]raised[/b] damage is ([i]mathematical[/i]) shooting more often!

raiseDamage1 = newDamage * (itemValue / 100)
[size=2][i]Break down:[/i][/size]
[size=2][i]30/100 = 0,3[/i][/size]
[size=2][i]100 * 0,3 = 30 DP[/i][/size]


Total:
finalDamage = baseDamage + damageAddition1 + damageAddition2 + raiseDamage1
[size=2][i]Break down:[/i][/size]
[size=2][i]100 + 67 + 25 + 30 = 222 DP[/i][/size]




The correct damage value for a 40% Turbo + 20% Turbo + 30% DamageRaise is
[size=4][color=#FF0000][b]222 DP[/b][/color][/size]




>>[b]Net DPS increase is equal to the amount of Turbo, in this case +60% DPS.[/b]

If you do it like this, you would end up:
40 + 20 + 30 = 90%

100 * 1,9 = 190 DP

[b]You end up in a difference of almost 17% !![/b]
17% [b]LESS[/b] damage tho.....





And [b]NOW[/b] you know why there were devices like 3% or 12% in the live game - because they become much more effective in a formula chain as some1 would think....
If the current turbo formula and the current stacking-formula is like i think, the turbo calculation and stacking needs to be redone completely.


[b]Tienbau, could you be so kind please and look up the current code how turbo and damage raise is calculated and in which order?[/b]





Sorry for the long ([size=3][i]and to some maybe "complicated"[/i][/size]) post. Edited February 5, 2012 by Zackman

[Zackman [LDEV]]

PS.:
Thread Title "Here is a suggestion" in the board "suggestions" is almost as good as "HEEELPPP !!!111!!!" in help-boards.....

May i kindly ask a moderator to change the title to "Weapons delay and damage calculation" ?

[kjeron]

It stacked parallel in Live, so it stack parallel here. It's not wrong, its a decision of balance.
Damage enhancement and turbo are applied separately, not added together.

Currently:
DMG = base x [ 1 + Weaponskill%(25-200%, L2-9) + Enhance BM/PL/ML buff + Focus/Precision/Force buff + (A)Weaponskill buff ]
ex: base = 235.3 (PM Infused Bile)
845.4329 = 235.3 x [ 1 + 200% + 39.9%(Intolerance) + 4%(AWCS) + 14.4%(Sting8) ]

Reload = base / [ 1 + Equip buff BM/PL/ML + Equip buff Weapons + All diff value (A) buffs ]. Currently capped @ 50% reload.
ex: base = 1.3 (100% FotM)
.722... = 1.3 / [ 1 + 40%(FotM) + 20%(PB) + 15%(Dreadmail) + 5%(Aegis) ]

DPS is still DMG/Reload.
845.4329 / .722... = 1170.6 dps

Changing it now just means raising mob shield/resists again.

The buff states that it reduces delay by XX% simply because its outdated - thats how it originally functioned in Live, until they added too many that they had to nerf its effectiveness. They never bothered to change the wording.

[Zackman [LDEV]]

[quote name='will' timestamp='1328151838' post='52888']
Net DPS increase is equal to the amount of Turbo, in this case +60% DPS.
[/quote]

This is the part i was refering to in my previous posting - i repeat:
[color=#ff0000][b]This math is wrong.[/b][/color] (you might want to reread my posting)



[quote]It stacked parallel in Live[/quote]

I know something different so you can you show me a source for this?

[kjeron]

[quote name='Zackman' timestamp='1328487715' post='53147']
This is the part i was refering to in my previous posting - i repeat:
[color=#ff0000][b]This math is wrong.[/b][/color] (you might want to reread my posting)
[/quote]
Depends on what your adjusting. Rate of Fire or Reload.
Turbo increases rate of fire by XX%. 60% = +60%dps
It does not reduce reload by XX%. 60% = +150%dps


[quote name='Zackman' timestamp='1328487715' post='53147']
I know something different so you can you show me a source for this?
[/quote]
[url="http://www.earthandbeyond.ca/server/patchviewer.jsp-id=644.html"]http://www.earthandbeyond.ca/server/patchviewer.jsp-id=644.html[/url]
Turbo changes-

[Tienbau]

sorry Zack, will is correct - Turbo increases the damage by the turbo %.

At first, in live, they did use the formula you listed, but they found it lead to crazy increases for turbo, so it was changed to increase the DPS by the % amount, and then the new reload times are calculated based on what it would take to fulfil that DPS.

So a 50% turbo on a 10 second cooldown weapon would reduce the cooldown to 6.67 seconds, a 100% turbo would reduce the cooldown to 5 seconds.

EG imagine a weapons with a 10 second reload which does 10 damage per hit, ie 1 DPS standard.

50% turbo: DPS is raised to 1.5

reload time becomes 10/1.5 = 6.67 seconds.

100% turbo: DPS is raised to 2.0

reload time becomes 10/2 = 5 seconds.

It's pretty simple really ... maybe the description is incorrect?

[Ryle [N7R]]

tl;dr version of this thread: math is hard, progens rule, jenpies suck

in other news KHAAAAAANNNNNN

[Zackman [LDEV]]

[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1328501411' post='53151']
sorry Zack, will is correct - Turbo increases the damage by the turbo %.
...
[b]... maybe the description is incorrect?[/b]
[/quote]

Yes, the description is [b]definitely[/b] [b]wrong[/b] then and should be changed, because the whole posting i made is about the huge difference you get by re-calculating a[b] percentage reduction[/b] into a [b]correspondending raise[/b] if you do it in a mathematical wrong way.

My whole posting was [b]not[/b] [b]mainly [/b]about the question of stacking (that was just a side effect), i was mainly about the simply wrong math behind it.
I am feeling like an [b][i]idiot[/i][/b] now pointing out this difference, showing the correct mathematical formula [b]matching the item description[/b] - and at the end it turns out that the item description is simply [b]wrong.[/b]

This is something EA should have changed but they didn't - so i appreciate it could be corrected here now (finally).


It's a trap.... Edited February 6, 2012 by Zackman