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If Pvp Were Added - How To Make It Fun For All

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Hey ..Time for some PvP humor.

Here's an Image of Three Jenquai Doing PvP against each other.

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[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1338510349' post='58417']
Hey ..Time for some PvP humor.

Here's an Image of Three Jenquai Doing PvP against each other.
[/quote]

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

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[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1338510349' post='58417']
Hey ..Time for some PvP humor.

Here's an Image of Three Jenquai Doing PvP against each other.
[/quote]

GOOD STUFF!

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I agree with Ryle... If were talking about people who don't like PvP discussing too, saying I'll leave if you put it in isn't really helpful. Honestly I don't care if that's all you got to say. I like the idea of PvP, and it's fine by me if others don't. I don't think it should be dismissed because they don't like it.

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[quote name='Sleven.' timestamp='1338569091' post='58435']
I agree with Ryle... If were talking about people who don't like PvP discussing too, saying I'll leave if you put it in isn't really helpful. Honestly I don't care if that's all you got to say. I like the idea of PvP, and it's fine by me if others don't. I don't think it should be dismissed because they don't like it.
[/quote]
Not necessarily dismissed possibly... but if more are against than for, it should weigh heavily on how, when and IF it is implemented.

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Mimir, I see that How, When and IF it is Implemented. Please i'm not criticizing the comment in any way. or directing it at you specifically. You bring up a good points. How When and IF. What are the benefits of a PvP could be another point..

Lets look at "How":
Purely elective in a seperate Zone or In the current EMU sectors. No PvE People will be affected UNLESS they Choose to weather it Be By combat, disscussion or chat and have any consequence of said action will be by their own doing.

Lets look at "When"
The Sooner the better why?
Below taken from topic: "EMU Population Declining?"
[quote name='Lot' timestamp='1338371761' post='58376']
I think it may be related to how slowly content has been being pushed out over the past few months. When there is nothing new to do and the current stuff starts to become boring it is natural for the regulars to gradually enter into hibernation waiting for new stuff to arrive. Also the regulars know that ST4 will end eventually and there comes a point when they decide to cut their losses and login less often.
[/quote]
[quote name='Blattu' timestamp='1338511255' post='58419']
hey guys :0
i myself kinda got bored and played some other stuff, but it didnt really hook me as well.i really loved the great times ive had here and hope to have more as new stuff comes out. ive been watching the forums and waiting for something to draw me back in. im sure it will come.
a forum announced,sector-wide mobfest free for all sounds great! im sure i will be hooked again after awhile ,as i was playing up to 10-12 hours a day lol
B
[/quote]
PvP Is a Level of excitement not seen in EnB.
PvP May Get them back in the Game where ever that may be. especially when they have nothing to lose.

Now lets look at "IF"
IMO that would be a mistake NOT to. WHY ?
IMO, Once the PvE players realize that PvP will not effect them, they will come back (The ones that Have threated to leave.)

The People that would like to see some kind of PvP May not donate as offen and may leave altogether. Yea I can here it "Off with them then, we don't need them". But we do, we need them all.

Although there are players that say they won't do or try PvP they probally will with an ALT so no one knows its them, Just like the Peeps that Post a negative comment on a topic with an ALT

The DEVs will Have something for the Players to Pacify themselves untill new content comes out. PvP is always Changing content.

The span of time between the player Looking and waiting for something new will be longer. Better For the DEVs and Betas.

There will be a point in time when The DEVs And players will Say "Well Vrix are in and been done to death now what?

People Have got to Get that PvP Image out of their heads that has Made a scar sooo deep that they can't see the fun that can be had in the Earth and Beyond PvP that they themSelves help to create (Some have)

And I got to believe that there are players that are getting a little tired of picking up the slack to the Donations goal. We Need More People more interest and more play style...

I think we have covered every concern and Idea? Now its up to the DEVs
No pressure though.. :o

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Honestly Mimir, even if 100 people dont want it, and 50 do, there is no reason to not add it. Its another optional piece of content like agrippa or blackbeards wake. You dont have to do it, but the option is there should you wish to.

I mean, youre concerned about PvP community drama and griefing right? Realize the majority of the people on this EMU are in their 30s,40s, and 50s. We are too old for that kinda childish BS to be blunt. I personally outgrew it years ago, despite my retorts at times.

If this was a modern game with a bunch of kids out to prove their worth like on Xbox Live or WoW, i could definately see your point. But honestly, I just cant see this community degrading itself to that level. Not even me, and I am one of the younger members around at 31. Edited by Ryle
  • Upvote 1

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[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1338573093' post='58439']
Not necessarily dismissed possibly... but if more are against than for, it should weigh heavily on how, when and IF it is implemented.
[/quote]
Well the thing is, there has been more people for it talking in this thread than against it... Neither opinion is being dismissed in this thread as far as I have seen. I like more substance to arguments though. Not just if put in I'll walk. I see that in a lot of threads. PW nerfed, cloak not fixed, so on, so on I'm never playing again. Input i like input.

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[quote name='Sleven.' timestamp='1338773903' post='58471']
Well the thing is, there has been more people for it talking in this thread than against it... Neither opinion is being dismissed in this thread as far as I have seen. I like more substance to arguments though. Not just if put in I'll walk. I see that in a lot of threads. PW nerfed, cloak not fixed, so on, so on I'm never playing again. Input i like input.
[/quote]

That's the issue, many don't bother with the forums. I have found this is the same for most games I play. So if you are making a decision for PvP by the lack of forum participation I think you are doing a great many players a disservice. Start talking it up in game in the chats see what type of support is there. Don't just do it one or two times but make it your mission to convert as many as you can to your way of thinking post daily about this thread, gather your supporters and take the chance that there may be players that don't agree with you.

Again, I could be wrong.
.

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I'm for PvP, but in a more limited way than most of the proponents here. I think PvP adds an endgame that challenges players when they have the PvE game endgame all solved and it bores them. It can also provide developers with ideas for improving the PvE AIs.

I've played many systems with PvP, and have grown past my initial dislike of it; Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, and Guild Wars gave me most of my experience. The Guild Wars team developed the best PvP system. They partition PvP to certain maps, PvE to others, and provide a variety of experiences: 4v4, 8v8, XvY, guild v guild. PvP matches are timed, although some end when certain criteria are met. The skills you use are limited to your hotbar, and locked down (no swapping skills onto your hotbar).

I see three big advantages:
1. Limiting skills to the hotbar requires people to think about what skills they're going to bring, and to coordinate with the rest of their team. It also creates a metagame, where teams try to outguess each others builds.
2. Putting PvP in separate, distinct maps allows the developers to support two versions of skills where necessary, one for PvP and one for PvE. It is much easier to balance a skill for both PvP and PvE with two versions.
3. Separate areas allows the developers to design maps just for PvP, with features that might be annoying or problematic in PvE.

And my personal inclinations:
4. Mixing PvP and PvE annoys the heck out of me, as someone who mostly does PvE. I hated it in EVE and DAOC.
5. Mixing PvP and PvE is problematic. As a programmer, it also requires handling the cases where non-combatants will buff and/or heal combatants. Even in EVE, which continues many years of open-world PvP, it's not really clean and clear.
6. As a player in AC and EVE, there was always the risk of accidentally getting red-flagged. Even a small chance was too much. And some of the gankers live to prey on noobs, and figure out ways to trick them into PvP-flagging themselves.
7. The Guild Wars model constrains fights to being fair ones. You knew you were getting into a fight, and didn't have to worry about getting ganked by someone much higher level.

To summarise:
I dislike free-ranging 'flag' based PvP. I've seen too many cases of it enabling people who like to grief noobs.
I like PvP when it's fenced off in separate areas, especially in ways that balance the sides as Guild Wars does it. Imbalanced sides/experience levels made PvP in DAOC much less enjoyable.
It's especially good when limits engender a metagame of builds, the way it does in Guild Wars.

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[quote name='Daulnay' timestamp='1338844336' post='58481']
To summarise:
I dislike free-ranging 'flag' based PvP. I've seen too many cases of it enabling people who like to grief noobs.
I like PvP when it's fenced off in separate areas, especially in ways that balance the sides as Guild Wars does it. Imbalanced sides/experience levels made PvP in DAOC much less enjoyable.
It's especially good when limits engender a metagame of builds, the way it does in Guild Wars.
[/quote]

TY :)
What would you think the best way be to handle items in PvP, Vendor and/or No Race restrictions items only and / or NO Boss drop items, for a start? etc etc..
Its hard to decide because there are items that all three races should have but not to the point of Lopsidedness. (<---is that a word) :)
And what would be the easiest for the Coders and DEVs items and Partitioned zones?

[quote name='Daulnay' timestamp='1338844336' post='58481']
I'm for PvP, but in a more limited way than most of the proponents here. I think PvP adds an endgame that challenges players when they have the PvE game endgame all solved and it bores them. It can also provide developers with ideas for improving the PvE AIs.
[/quote]

I kind of thought that first hand accounts of how the Items and skills working would improve the Game over, all fine tuning and such.
Is there a way to record battles between Players and copy and paste that battle (code) sequence right into the NPC AI ?
I know it don't work that way and its never that easy. :)

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Yeah I am not a terribly big fan of newbie sectors or the like being open to pvp. It should always be an opt-in system

As much as I enjoy the idea of chasing a Jenny all over the galaxy in a open world guild war, i despise the idea of that being abused to gate camp some poor guy who just gated the wrong place wrong time.

Even levels, even gear (if effort is made to obtain it of course), even chances, just skills vs skills man.

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I tried to read through this thread but there was too much arguing for my brain to take, so sorry if someone suggested this. What about mission-based PvP? Only those who accept the mission are flagged for PvP and the job spawns an area or objective "destroy Progen outpost here" for Jenq / Terrans, and "defend Progen outpost" for Progens for example.

The job would need to be acceptable by both sets of people (minimum numbers on them?) and only go live when the conditions are fulfilled, then the objective is spawned and everyone can go at it until the job is completed (or expires? or people warp out through a nav objective, forfeiting the mission?).

Just wanted to throw that in as it seems an easier alternative than creating a whole zone that people have to travel to. PvP anywhere, anytime, or not, as you wish.

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After further thought and reading through both topics:
[url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/7010-the-combat-cloak-problem/"]https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/7010-the-combat-cloak-problem/[/url]
PvP would Be destructive to this community.

It is for that reason that I change my view and opinion of PvP.

My and our Ideas are good, but I Myself find it difficult NOT to defend My class with extreme prejudice and find myself out of character and for that I am sorry.

There will be Players from both PvE and PvP that will be effected and will get Riled up over a change to their class or a suggestion to change another class for the purpose of "Balance" no matter how just or unjust.
This is a Spiral that will never end!

I was Naive, I will admit, that PvP could be contained within PvP itself and Not spill over to the Players of PvE.
I did not mean to Rile anyone, I was only hoping to help make a more diverse game.

To the DEVs, Beta's and Players please forgive me for my Ignorance on the effects of changing something you have come to Love. It has taken another Topic to see what could happen to our game even when we're not playing.
The Forums and the Game Chat is a BIG part of the game! That will change in a Bad way.

Whoa What ?? I Was Hacked !!

Phor.

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Here is an example of PvP

Consensual PvP

When creating a character, a player will be asked whether or not he/she wishes to participate in open PvP. If you choose yes, then you can attack any other player that said yes to the question in any sector (---- EXCEPT DESIGNATED NEWBIE, SELECTED SECTORS AND IN A CERTAIN RANGE OF GATES AND STATIONS----) without any consequences. And other players who said yes could attack you at any given time. If you said no to the question, then no player would be able to shoot you (with exception to the dueling and arena system).

Consequences of Death

When you die all rules of death would apply just as if you got killed by a NPC. The difference here is that the winning player would get 5% of your total credits.
Rewards for Winning
The winning player would get 2x more than usual XP on top of the 5% of credits. XP will be cut down severely if the player kills other players more than 4 times every 20 min (this is to prevent power leveling).

Getting out of Consensual PvP

To get out of Consensual PvP once you joined, players would be required to do extremely lengthy missions (taking days to finish). Once the mission is finished it would be as if the player never said yes to the question during character creation.

Joining after Character Creation

To become an open PvP’er after saying no to “the question” during character creation, a player would have to do a few missions (not nearly as long as the process to get out of PvP). Once they are accomplished, the player will be able to participate in open PvP.

Bounty System

The bounty system will be to stop people from being an annoyance. Since death doesn’t have very harsh consequences, the bounty system will be different than a simple bounty system. Only players participating in open PvP would be able to place and receive bounties.

Putting Up a Bounty

To put a bounty on someone, you would bring up the bounty screen, accessible from stations, and type in the players exact name. You would also put in the number of times you would want the player to be killed, and the amount of money you will give to kill that player each time. This means, that since “killing” a player once isn’t a severe punishment; you can have bounty hunters pester him/her for a long time to come. Once you set that, you will have to pay the set amount of money up front with a small tax. If you decide to take the bounty down, you will get back all the money unless the player has been killed.

Collecting a Bounty

To collect a bounty, you simply have to deal the killing blow. That means that the player could be badly damaged, and you simply would have to finish him/her off and you would automatically get the money. You wouldn’t be able to collect a bounty via dueling.

Dueling

Dueling will allow for players who aren’t part of open PvP to duel outside arenas. Everyone can duel anywhere (including newbie sectors). To duel, one player (player A) will select another player and select a duel button. The other player will either choose yes to accept the duel, or no to decline (declining doesn’t affect the players in any way). The message will also say whether or not the duel is “serious” or “fun” which will be described below.

Serious Dueling

If player B accepts, then there will be a 1 min time limit for players to get ready (buffing up, gaining distance, whatever that may be). After the time is up, the players may attack each other as if they were mobs until one dies or leaves the sector. The winning player gets XP depending on the level of the opponent and 5% of the opponent’s total credits. Death as a result from a serious duel will have the same consequences as if the player got killed by a mob. To avoid power leveling via Serious Dueling, only 1 match will be able to be initiated every 10 minutes and if the level difference is above a certain number, XP will be drastically reduced.

Fun Dueling

If player B accepts, then there will be a 1 min time limit for players to get ready (buffing up, gaining distance, whatever that may be). After the time is up, the players may attack each other as if they were mobs until one dies or leaves the sector. The winning player gets XP depending on the level of the opponent. The losing player will simply be incapacitated for 10 seconds after which his/her ship will be restored to the original state it was in. To avoid power leveling via Fun Dueling, only 1 match will be able to be initiated every 10 minutes and if the level difference is above a certain number, then only 2 every hour.

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Well phorlaug that is a darn shame, it really is.

Id have thought that perhaps such an argument would lead to "lets settle this in the arena" and the boys tumble out back, one gets his butt whooped and then we go for beers after.

PvP requires profession balance even moreso than PvE does. While the thread you mentioned really had nothing to do with this one, the community backlash over a call to balance something, is just part of reality of making it fair.

Pvp enthusiasts like myself, and I am sure many of you guys, are power gamers. Min/max specialists getting the best stuff and using the best tactical advantage. We go for the best class and combo to get the best result. Power gamers will play the flavor of the month (whichever the best is between patches) and move on to the next big thing the next patch as skills are nerfed, equipment is added, things change. It happens in every single PvP game out there, especially with griefers/trolls. They always play the overpowered alpha profession so they can feel like badasses and mock the others. I was surprised it got that heated, given I figured people would put balance and fairness before personal victory, but thats just how it rolls. I still have faith in this community to pursue a fun and engaging PvP environment if people will put the measuring sticks away.

Just to crossover, how fun would PvP be for anything but a JD, if the JD was pretty much unkillable by any other profession regardless of skill level?

Would lead to some pretty boring PvP tbh, and a potential griefer/epeener nightmare. (lets all plays jds and prey on the other 8 professions til everyone else ragequits out of frustration. then what do we do? kill each other as JDs? whos gonna decloak first?)

Right now, if you put PvP in this game as it is, at this very moment, the JD would fit the title of PvP alpha class very very well. I dont care how good a player is at any other profession, if a competent player took a jd versus them the defender would win every single fight. And what has history told us about what alpha classes do to PvP? Everyone rolls the alpha class and PvP dies. (Death Knights in WoW, Spies and Dark Jedi (post NGE) and Jedi in general Pre-CU in SWG, Peacebringers in City of Heroes, etc... had pvp communities in an uproar because you could play the profession and wax anything but your own profession if that, with ease. i wouldnt want to see that happen here) Edited by Ryle

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A different mechanism for PvP:

Use the Jobs system and let more than one person take the samejob (edit: clearly marked for PvP, or from the dedicated PvP jobs tab) . Everyone who takes the job is flagged for PvP with those other people for the duration of the job.

Since the jobs system has levels and location built in, you get rid of all level and environment balance issues right off, leaving only class balance issues. Since its faction-based, you have the basis for tying it to canon and giving it context, the way the original game was supposed to (faction controlled whether you had docking rights at stations, for example).

As a bonus, the jobs often take place in populated areas and therefore people can come watch. Got a mission to pick up diplomats for your faction at F7? The crowd can turn out and watch the show.

As another bonus, as the jobs system evolves, there's a built-in change-management mechanism for you to use to ensure that PVP evolves in a positive direction.

Just wanted to put my .02 in. PvP has screwed up many a good game with poor implementation, and I think a PvP Jobs system would satisfy everyone's needs without impacting the PVE side of the game.

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[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1341153745' post='59964']..Just wanted to put my .02 in. PvP has screwed up many a good game with poor implementation, and I think a PvP Jobs system would satisfy everyone's needs without impacting the PVE side of the game.[/quote]

I only see one potential issue with this idea. Will the PvP jobs be marked as such, or will someone just running jobs find themselves flagged for something they did not bargain for?

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[quote name='Bloody Riz' timestamp='1341166243' post='59971']
I only see one potential issue with this idea. Will the PvP jobs be marked as such, or will someone just running jobs find themselves flagged for something they did not bargain for?
[/quote]

Good point, if I'm doing a delivery with my travel gear in, combat is the last thing on my mind, simply getting the item & carrying it to it's destination is what matters. Not to mention, you're vulnerable at all undockings/gatings, as any opponents would be able to see you before you can do anything. Once you're in warp, you can't be stopped.

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[quote name='Bloody Riz' timestamp='1341166243' post='59971']
I only see one potential issue with this idea. Will the PvP jobs be marked as such, or will someone just running jobs find themselves flagged for something they did not bargain for?
[/quote]
[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1341167925' post='59973']
Good point, if I'm doing a delivery with my travel gear in, combat is the last thing on my mind, simply getting the item & carrying it to it's destination is what matters. Not to mention, you're vulnerable at all undockings/gatings, as any opponents would be able to see you before you can do anything. Once you're in warp, you can't be stopped.
[/quote]

Doh, did I not make that clear enough? I'll edit the post.

Of course the missions would be marked as PvP. The whole point is a siloed system to allow PvP, but restrict it just to people who have deliberately chosen to engage in it, AND for a limited time. That way your characters can go walk on the wild side when you want, and still do everything else in game without fear of PvP consequences (accidental / griefing damage in groups, grudges, etc.).

Thanks for pointing that out :)

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Now I do like a variation of your idea Wootage, in the form of smuggling missions. Not sure how it would best be implemented, but it could start with factions like Anseria, RD, Chavez, Renegade Progen, but ultimately include the major factions as well. Wouldn't really be a PvP type of thing though, instead you have to get x item to an NPC hiding in a particular sector, without being caught. Gates would be safe areas in each sector, since you can't avoid the gates in or out in most sectors. If you're successful you get Explore & Trade XP and faction from the sponsor, if you get caught, the mission fails, and you get negative faction with whomever caught you.

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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1341241725' post='60008']
Now I do like a variation of your idea Wootage, in the form of smuggling missions. Not sure how it would best be implemented, but it could start with factions like Anseria, RD, Chavez, Renegade Progen, but ultimately include the major factions as well. Wouldn't really be a PvP type of thing though, instead you have to get x item to an NPC hiding in a particular sector, without being caught. Gates would be safe areas in each sector, since you can't avoid the gates in or out in most sectors. If you're successful you get Explore & Trade XP and faction from the sponsor, if you get caught, the mission fails, and you get negative faction with whomever caught you.
[/quote]

That sounds virtually identical to the SWG smuggler missions actually. Youd choose either PvP or PvE, and then bounty hunter NPCs (or players) would try to intercept you before you could make your delivery. If you chose PvP, it forced you onto the bounty hunter terminals (BH PvP missions) for 10 minutes or so, you couldnt deliver right away.

You got double pistol modules (a form of damage increase buff) if you went the PvP route. Incentive based risk/reward.

So, in that vein, make the PvE trade runs get ya attacked by factional NPCs/MOBS, but the PvP one flag you attackable to ... any pvp enabled player, and you get double the xp if no one kills you. (random delivery locations and so on so it couldnt be camped.. and make a timer where you have to be decloaked somewhere as a jenny so you couldnt just groupstealth it for mega xp every time) Edited by Ryle

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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1341241905' post='60009']
That sounds virtually identical to the SWG smuggler missions actually. Youd choose either PvP or PvE, and then bounty hunter NPCs (or players) would try to intercept you before you could make your delivery. If you chose PvP, it forced you onto the bounty hunter terminals (BH PvP missions) for 10 minutes or so, you couldnt deliver right away.

You got double pistol modules (a form of damage increase buff) if you went the PvP route. Incentive based risk/reward.

So, in that vein, make the PvE trade runs get ya attacked by factional NPCs/MOBS, but the PvP one flag you attackable to ... any pvp enabled player, and you get double the xp if no one kills you. (random delivery locations and so on so it couldnt be camped.. and make a timer where you have to be decloaked somewhere as a jenny so you couldnt just groupstealth it for mega xp every time)
[/quote]

When Scan is fully implemented, any Scout, Sentinel, or Jenquai toon with L3 Scan or higher will be able to see cloaked. Any of those toons with L5 scan can share see cloaked. Jenquai do make good smugglers, especially the JE for that reason, so I don't see a problem with some of the police/bounty hunter NPCs having the Scan skill.

Something like this could happen, you're required to smuggle something from the RD to a spot in Tarsis, the PWs may or may not be aware of this, if they are, they have Sabine & Centuriata Police. The Sabine Police mobs have Scan 5 and are grouped with the Centuriata ones. This means that if the Sabine sees you while you're cloaked, the Centuriata ones are notified, and they come for you. Something similar can be done with the Terrans where the police are a combo of Hyperia & EarthCorps. For smuggling missions against the Jenquai would be Shinwa, and either Sha'ha'dem or Sharim, since all Jenquai get Scan to at least L5. The ones against the Jenquai would be especially dangerous because they can also cloak and catch you when you're not looking. For the PvE versions of smuggling missions. Not sure if contraband should be subject to wormhole penalties, the way trade goods are, maybe some contraband is, while others is not. Various types of contraband should apply.

You get the most XP for the mission of you're able to get to the drop point without being seen. There could be additional items implemented with this, that make it harder for Police or Bounty Hunter NPCs (or other players in a PvP version) to detect contraband in your hold, but it only works from a distance, if they get close enough, you're busted. Explorer chars as Police & bounty hunters would be able to cut though your abilty to hide your cargo from further away since explorers get expanded scan ranges. Players in a PvP scenario could have counter devices.

Didn't know they were like the missions in SWG, I've never played that game.

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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1341241725' post='60008']
Now I do like a variation of your idea Wootage, in the form of smuggling missions. Not sure how it would best be implemented, but it could start with factions like Anseria, RD, Chavez, Renegade Progen, but ultimately include the major factions as well. Wouldn't really be a PvP type of thing though, instead you have to get x item to an NPC hiding in a particular sector, without being caught. Gates would be safe areas in each sector, since you can't avoid the gates in or out in most sectors. If you're successful you get Explore & Trade XP and faction from the sponsor, if you get caught, the mission fails, and you get negative faction with whomever caught you.
[/quote]

Here you go - https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/7058-jobmission-brainstorming/ - . That's a great idea to add to Ryle's missions thread.

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I'm seeing a lot of re-posts of the same ideas and as someone pointed out, they didn't even read previous posts before chiming in. There are a ton of ways to do things and many ideas and suggestions. There are so many that I doubt anyone could even summarize them without creating a many pages long document.

It seems every so often it gets riled up here, so I'm going to close this topic for a while.[s] Don't worry, I'll re-open it later[/s]. Or, if someone does have the time and energy to summarize, we could start a new topic with that.

[url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/7161-pvp-idea-summary-taken-from-how-to-make-it-fun/"]Here [/url]is the topic starting with a summary. Since we have a new topic, I won't re-open this one. Edited by Dakynos
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