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Lannister

Why I Think We Need A Player Wipe.

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I know! I know! Blasphemy – we lived in fear of a P-Wipe for so long the simple muttering of it was enough to put most of the player community on edge.

First let me say I did not come to this conclusion lightly, nor do I minimize the amount of time and energy people have put into their toons to get them fully up to speed and engaged. Look below you will see that I have maxed out every single class in the game – and have others not even listed there. I do also realize that there are many players who have not yet maxed out or who are enjoying lower level toons. No everyone sees this as a good thing.

But before you jump on this suggestion please grant me a moment of your time to consider it.

Player Interest: Overall interest in the game seems to be lagging. The number of players online at any time is dropping. The amount of activity in any of the channels, even guild channels, is dropping as well. I think this comes down to interest – we were challenged, but so many have done it all. How many Fish Bowl Raids, Drone Squashes, Mordana Hunts, etc can we do and still find it enjoyable? Building up from scratch is the challange – and with a newly leveled playing field and need to rebuild much of the player interest will be reawakened.

Player Domination: Many portions of the games are dominated by players or groups of players. This is true for building mostly – just look at the top 5 or so builds for anything you want made. This is also true for raids to some extent.

Game Economy Distortion: Many of the higher level players have gobs and gobs of cash. Billions and Billions – and I resemble that remark. The net effect is that money has no value – builds are almost all done for free and if you want something really high end (like say a synthetic crystal for an Intent engine) then no amount of money would get you one. Worse A working economy is key and the only way to fix this one is to level it.

Destabilizing Events: Remember Hulk Fest, Mob Fest, Oni drops, common mob parts dropping for 6m a stack, the Master spawning every 15min, etc? All of these events impacted the game greatly. It beefed up build lists, player equipment, and coffers. We have never really, in my opinion, recovered from these.

Reduction in Emulator Funding: The items above, but especially number 1, are impacting the funding for the emulator itself. Fewer players equals fewer contributions to cover the costs of the emulator. If we do not cover the costs of the emulator then E&B goes away again.

We have a great game here. Best of all it has had great improvements over the last 6-12 months and, better yet, more on the horizon. By the time we build back up to some maxed toons perhaps some stellar new content will be available to keep us moving along. I would love to see the return to 200+ people online and active again. Most of the time now there are fewer than 100 toons on – and I am sure that means less that 50 actual players.

That is my $0.02 anyway. I hold no power to pull the switch of course, that is a collective right.

Thoughts?
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We've been staving off a player wipe for a long time and the database is accordingly dirty and there is a rather large number of L150 toons out there. I think a player wipe is a good idea. I think the devs want to wait until alpha though, which should be any time now really, but I haven't taken a look at the checklist recently.

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I like the suggestion to do a player wipe, but please do it after some new content is in place. I'm hoping new content will be implemented after alpha stage is started. This way we have actually something to look forward to.

Many of us would be tired to start all over again to just end up right where we left off.

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I was JUST finishing agrippa wapons/ammo missions.
Dont even [color=#FF0000][b]THINK [/b][/color]about touching the player base..dare u....

I WILL(!) level one more time again: When there is a 1.0 version number - not before.
There is no technical reason for a wipe -and honestly i cant follow the "arguement" that we should bear with a wipe because some are bored...

Btw, i know where you all live... :)

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I too would love to see a wipe, BUT, I don't think Alpha is "just around the corner" just yet. I feel the missions, skills, device buffs/debuffs, and mostly the code is not where it needs to be to go to Alpha.
I feel pretty good about the "general" mobs and thier drops up to lvl 50's (after the next content push), just needing to finish the rest 51 and up.

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yep, wipe at alpha. I don't think it's just round the corner either. Mid year earliest.

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Pretty sure the hard core of the popluation would keep on playing after a p-wipe.

Nearly 200 characters logged in yesterday and over the past 12 months across EU and US time zones the population has been 130 average per day. Peak concurrent users is 150-180 per day. SW:TOR may have caused a slight decline since the end of last year. Everything considered the population is still good. I would disagree about interest waning.

It doesn't really matter what occured during ST4 because a wipe is a wipe.

Preventing the same game breaking events re-occuring again afterward would be important though.

There are still broken things with the economy for example components still drop too often and too frequently making mining a redundant profession for obtaining ores. It is simple to farm a stack of material rich components. If this status quo continued after a p-wipe it would lead to another broken economy again.

Players need to have something to look forward to after a p-wipe. I've often heard about certain content being placed in reserve so would like some clarity on what those intentions are please.

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Would like to see some new stuff after the wipe... if not I'll still be playing. True love doesn't end after a player wipe, and if its in the interest of a finer functioning game then I'm all for it.
Over and out...

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Player wipe now only if: 10X XP until Alpha :)


Oh and for player numbers, I’m convinced it’s about AAA’s mostly switching over to the F2P (free to PAY/Pay to win) model (bleh), as EnB EMU isn’t the only project effected by falling numbers. I don’t think it’s about game economy or anything like that. Edited by StarbuckJD

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Yes there will be at least 2 cool things coming online at alpha. Some of you will be called on to help trial them and see if they work (as game concepts) over the coming weeks. Hopefully there'll be more than this, depends on how much server coding happens. Every time I go to start on something new something else needs fixing, which usually means a re-write of whatever it was.

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I'd be rather pissed myself. I have 4 toons, the highest of which is 95 atm - to loose that progress because there are so many who are L150 would be despiriting at best... I know it has to happen at some point

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IMO a player wipe would likely lose more players that increase them. I think the bigest way to get players back is to fix bugs and add fix/content. I know that other players have bugs/fucntionality that is causing them to not play as much (potential examples: level 7 ooze shield drop rate/requirement for FB lure, jd/je max scan crashing client, mob's not being very challenging, etc) but here are the two major issues that have cut my play/testing time by a ton since October.

1) XP bugs/functionality: Rollover xp for level 50 skills (drops 50% of the xp) and trade xp for trade routes/mob loot in comparison to explore and combat xp. I was going to get a few of my toons to 150 (atm 135+) and then start a PS and JT but with rollover xp and trade the way it is now I won't be doing this. Sorry but grinding jobs is just not fun for most players and not seeing movment in xp bars kills logins imo.

2) Ore fields: Running accross big ore fields that have ore that I can use (ammo ore, comp ore) would take up several hours a session for me in Live. Leveling up my JE I pretty much just stuck to a few gas fields due to the low ammount of roids and limited type of ores (titanium is more present now but its still a pain for players that want to use longbows or other PM only ammo while leveling). This has only goten worse since I started mining 7-9 ores a few months back. Atm there I find almost zero reason to play my JE (coma fix had me playing a lot for the last week). The few items I do want to get made I am just ripping refined ore from comps to get made. I know some players have said that they can find plenty of ore but compared to live its not even close (took me two hours to pull 25 L7 appalonite after visiting 7 sectors) but more importantly it just doesn't feel fun mining small groups of roids......especially when players can see all these nav point roids that were the center of ore fields in live.
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[quote name='Lannister' timestamp='1327357568' post='52059']
I know! I know! Blasphemy – we lived in fear of a P-Wipe for so long the simple muttering of it was enough to put most of the player community on edge.

First let me say I did not come to this conclusion lightly, nor do I minimize the amount of time and energy people have put into their toons to get them fully up to speed and engaged. Look below you will see that I have maxed out every single class in the game – and have others not even listed there. I do also realize that there are many players who have not yet maxed out or who are enjoying lower level toons. No everyone sees this as a good thing.

But before you jump on this suggestion please grant me a moment of your time to consider it.

Player Interest: Overall interest in the game seems to be lagging. The number of players online at any time is dropping. The amount of activity in any of the channels, even guild channels, is dropping as well. I think this comes down to interest – we were challenged, but so many have done it all. How many Fish Bowl Raids, Drone Squashes, Mordana Hunts, etc can we do and still find it enjoyable? Building up from scratch is the challange – and with a newly leveled playing field and need to rebuild much of the player interest will be reawakened.

Player Domination: Many portions of the games are dominated by players or groups of players. This is true for building mostly – just look at the top 5 or so builds for anything you want made. This is also true for raids to some extent.

Game Economy Distortion: Many of the higher level players have gobs and gobs of cash. Billions and Billions – and I resemble that remark. The net effect is that money has no value – builds are almost all done for free and if you want something really high end (like say a synthetic crystal for an Intent engine) then no amount of money would get you one. Worse A working economy is key and the only way to fix this one is to level it.

Destabilizing Events: Remember Hulk Fest, Mob Fest, Oni drops, common mob parts dropping for 6m a stack, the Master spawning every 15min, etc? All of these events impacted the game greatly. It beefed up build lists, player equipment, and coffers. We have never really, in my opinion, recovered from these.

Reduction in Emulator Funding: The items above, but especially number 1, are impacting the funding for the emulator itself. Fewer players equals fewer contributions to cover the costs of the emulator. If we do not cover the costs of the emulator then E&B goes away again.

We have a great game here. Best of all it has had great improvements over the last 6-12 months and, better yet, more on the horizon. By the time we build back up to some maxed toons perhaps some stellar new content will be available to keep us moving along. I would love to see the return to 200+ people online and active again. Most of the time now there are fewer than 100 toons on – and I am sure that means less that 50 actual players.

That is my $0.02 anyway. I hold no power to pull the switch of course, that is a collective right.

Thoughts?
[/quote]

Gotta make this brief and short and sweet caus emy pc keeps blowing up on me >_< so i loose my previous brillant novals lol j/k except for brillant part.

First let me say that your wrong and people who collect SS benifiets and are retired don't need a reason to explain how they got all there toons maxed and coming from someone who works and can only play 2 days out of the week says alot.

Player Interest:Your either not interacting enough or playing with non-active players and or in the wrong guild. Chatting is an everyday thing in my guild but it's not just in-game we can also communicate over ventrillo and teamspeak should we choose too and/or the offical guild fourms.

Player Domination: With all your toons might you not be one of those top 5 builders in the build market? That certainly could destroy any evidence that some high levely player is being selfish and not welling to help you by building something that enhances your game play.

Game Economy Distortion: That is life, that was live and this is how it well be untill there is an unlimited lvl a maxed charcater can reach. Market inflation thats your issue? I haven't seen it yet and ceretainly have seen it in Live. If it wasn't for market inflation my pw wouldn't combat as hard for the credits to buy new equipment through the build market. So the more high lvl players there are to sell there items the more the market will grow. It's game econmics 101. Thus a P-wipe won't fix that mechanic. I wonder if with your maxed toons, you couldn't shell out a mieasly 5-10mill for a lvl 9 part in game right now?

Destabilizing Events: Hukimania I missed it! did it boost my building stuff hell no, but i hear it was fun while it lasted, thats what gives reason to the event and it did not over power a race of toon. Everything stood within the guide lines and was balanced.

Reduction in Emulator Funding: We know this...they also know this... why bring it back up are you taking over the money plugs position? If so p:(ase inform us :) that matter. :) Earth and beyond well never go away jsut be suspended probably or put on hold should this ever occur.
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Bring on the Player Wipe, but as a contributor, please consider some sort of relief, i.e. letting us pick one of our toons to take forward to alpha, leave it 150, clear credits, unallocated skill points, wipe build lists and wipe gear from it, have to start with level 1 and work up to better gear. Maybe thats a crazy idea, at least that would give us some reprieve. I am not sure if I am interested in starting over and over, well maybe I am, ENB = best game ever, so glad its back. Either way you have my time and money, make good use of it Kyp and team.

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[quote name='Crichton' timestamp='1327369129' post='52121']
1) XP bugs/functionality: Rollover xp for level 50 skills (drops 50% of the xp) and trade xp for trade routes/mob loot in comparison to explore and combat xp. I was going to get a few of my toons to 150 (atm 135+) and then start a PS and JT but with rollover xp and trade the way it is now I won't be doing this. Sorry but grinding jobs is just not fun for most players and not seeing movment in xp bars kills logins imo.

[/quote]

That reminds me every player wipe I personally and as a player, have had to go through, all my characters start loosing skillpoint or not gaining them "properly" and I don't find this out untill i'm near max lvl and checking the character planner on net-7 site. I bring this up because after the holidays and running the santa mission to get 6 extra skillpoints, i'm still some odd skill points behind... what the character planner is informing me i should be at. That tills me that every wipe or new character we have made sense or I have made is bugged when it comes to gaining skill points at w/e lvl hard to catch this but do the math and youll see. Still I can tolerate that if I haven't cought it but if that doesn't get fixed and is due to player wipes alone, then I'm against a P-wipe that's going to avoid that problem. I thought David fixed it when we moved to ST4 maybe on my main but not on my JE just so you know. : Edited by Orga2

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yeah I think we could arrange it so any avatars logged into during the past 6 months or so could be carried forward, but reset to character creation status.

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If we're going to have a wipe, perhaps the things mentioned earlier in thread could occur first.

The JT could use some new JT only equipment, some with buffs seen before, some with new buffs, same for the PT and Scout getting class only equipment. That's really been lacking so far.

More content that's non-combat related, for classes like the TT, JT, Scout, and JE. Populating all the Asteroid navs with orefields.

More class specific missions, as well as mission designed around what particular classes do best.

JTs shouldn't be doing missions designed for warriors. They should be doing missions designed for a stealthy trader with halfway decent scanners. Learning new things to add to her build lists, working on trade relations with the other two races (storyline it makes sense for them more than the JE or JW). Sure she may need to loot things like derfresser phlegm, but she probably shouldn't be going to Cooper often for mission required loot.

Scouts should be doing missions designed for miners, refiners, as well as finding things. For the Scout, as well as the JE & PE, look to Lyle McDonald's mission from live, and design more missions around finding specific ores and doing new refines. This would be something for explorers to do that fit what they're desinged for. There could be some doable by all 3, and others that would be better if done by one of the 3 than the other two. (Balm runs from Live were an example of a mission that could have been done by a PE or a Scout but a JE would have a much easier time due to the wormhole skill and the travel involved)

Class specific missions for the other classes should be added as well.

Implement some of these things first, before going with a wipe, would be nice to level up without having to go to the Job terminals as much, while still doing interesting things.

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yeah we definitely want more interesting things happening around the traps.

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[b]It is a desperate straw and illusion thinking you could breath new life into the emu by wiping the player base![/b]

New life means [b][color=#b22222]NEW CONTENT[/color][/b] - and without new content there is no "new life",


If you consider a wipe you [b]MUST[/b] change the content completey, otherwise players will feel punished to do over everything they already did. That is repeative and the same like just making a new toon.

You know every nav, every mission, every spawn, every boos, every timer, every loot etc etc.
There is absolutely no other reason for wiping then technical issues - which we dont have within the player database.



[b][color=#b22222]It's a mistake to think you raise the playerbase by doing so - the opposit will happen:[/color][/b]
Most players will [b]LEAVE[/b] because they dont like being punished and start over again something they already just did.
You take away their gear, their toons, their archivements, their credits - everything they just did - and it's been done without any valid reason!

It is, what it is:
A punishment and delusional straw to rebreath emu's life. Wiping the playerbase at this point will cause a huge hit to the population.




I see only a handful long time/150 player voting for it so far, which isnt the majority. What does the majority think?

New players find the emu on a daily base, considering chat in "new player". Nobody feels "safe" in an emu where the toons get deleted quickly, just because some elder player feel bored.
[b]Only technical reasons on a test-server can justify a wipe, everything else is unnecessary arbitrariness which will cause a fading trust into the emu, because it could happen all time again![/b]

Breaking the trust with the playerbase is the final nail in every games coffin.
[b]We saw it with EA, we saw it with Sony, we saw it with Perpetual and so on: They all struggled and died losing the communitys trust![/b]




Decimating the population will also decimate donations, the emu will also propably die.
[color=#b22222][b]You are not wiping the player base, you are wiping the emu![/b][/color]


Sure ... maybe 37 player might return and start over. But this emu wasn't started for 37 people....




The server-devs should look into the logs and dont count how many [b]TOONS[/b] are online, count how many connections we have from diff. IP's!
This is the real player number - and its [b]WAY[/b] lower then logged toons cause of alts, mules etc.

So when there are 120 toons online, its maybe 50 real players. If you loose easily the half of these players, you remain developing for 25 players?
Have fun getting your needed Donations per month....

[color=#b22222][b]EMU WILL DIE AT THIS POINT.[/b][/color]




I wont continue doing "serious" things in the emu before there is a [b]CLEAR[/b] statement from the responsible person(s) here in the thread what will happen.
[b]This is exactly the same situation we had once with EA when the game was shutting down and there was NO reason from that point on to continue playing.[/b]
This is a trauma, a Dejavu many will have now and i wont go on till this has been finally sorted!


I want to know if it's worth to continue working on my toons or if its all for the waste-disposal from now on - cause then i stop.

[color=#b22222][b]So i am asking the staff here to post a final statement on this topic please.[/b][/color]



Thank you.



[size=3][i]Sidenote:[/i][/size]
[size=3][i]I worked on another emu and the same happend there - massive changes and player wipe to "eqal things".[/i][/size]
[size=3][i]I saidthe very same there - it will cause the emu's death, but they didnt listen. [/i][/size]

[size=3][i]They once had 1700 players, there are a 1/10 left by now. The emu is dead today and it happend exactly like i said.[/i][/size]

[size=3][i]Dont repeat this mistake here.[/i][/size]

[size=3][i]This emu here is no commercial game and you have to face people want playing - test center, alpha code or not - they want to play.[/i][/size]
[size=3][i]If you delete their "dream", they will move on to games not getting deleted all time.[/i][/size]

[size=3][i]Face it, that's how it works.[/i][/size]
[size=3][i]You can only wipe the player base when its absolutely needed (tecnical issues) for the ongoing developement, else leave it alone![/i][/size]
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I agree with Zackman on many points.

If there is going to be a wipe every time the DB gets cluttered, or recipes some how gets in thats not supposed to be or there are to many 150s in some ones opinion. Well guess what that is no way to run a game IMO, if I wanted to play another game I could go back to almost any MMO I have ever played (except the ones that have been shut down) and at the worst have to re-alocate my skill points.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Let me ask this how many of the new players that do not keep up with forums are going to stay when one day they log in and everything they worked for is gone? And don't give me "oh they should keep up on forums" as an easy out, actually think about it...

Seriously to many 150s some think means wipe time ? :wacko:

People get bored and leave/start games left and right in every other MMO, thats expected. A declining player base usually means the decision makers need to rethink what they are trying to give players and not just cater to the whiners. As SOOOOOOO many other games have done and lost tons of players, in most MMO games the whiners speak loudest becuase the ppl that do not have issues keep silent (for the most part).

One thing I am sure keeping alot away right now is this inevitable wipe, as many are like "why even bother with the emu just to see all my hard work on characters get wiped". Or thinking something along "How many more wipes? At beta and gold too? Or just when someone decides lets wipe again? Or when some of the community decide they want another wipe?" If there is a DB issue like the last wipe then it happenes. Programs are not flawless and fail time to time but a "lets wipe cuase we feel it needs done" doesn't cut it with most players, and if other games wiped chars they would be an epic fail very quickly. And those that feel that way after yet another wipe will be even less likely to come back for fear of another wipe.

I remember earlier on when the server cap was 200 and alot of times people were actually lucky to even get in. Now that wouldn't be an ussue unfortunately. And alot of the playerbase are mules/alts that are multiboxing/accting. So the true numbers are alot lower than the logged in accts, some are even staying logged in 24/7 and not even logging out unless the server reboots and they get kicked. If there were a afk kick like other games (which we don't need) I am sure that would show the true playerbase better.


All I can say for sure is, before a huge change such as a wipe the DEVs need to take a step back and think of it from a playerbase perspective. Rather than from the DEV mindset.

As Kyp said (and I know from my SQL class in school) a single SQL query can wipe out what ever it needs to (lets say something like the brimstone ballista or SS8 or items above 125% etc). Yes that would require more work than a total wipe would but would fix many of these so called huge issues (in some peoples opinions) and not anger near as many people as a total wipe will.
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I am really wary of unnecessary player wipes. to be honest one of the reasons I play so little now is because I know in a few months I am going to have to start all over again.
Ive been around for a couple years, playing off and on, and still have one level 144 and a level 95 or so. no 150s, no massive cash stash, no big build list...
I dont have the time to do it over, really. One of those people that cant play 24/7/365 really suffers the worst in all of this.

I understand the need for Alpha wipe, Beta wipe, and Release wipe. However, I dont see the point in being in a groundhog day scenario. All I had in live was my fully geared and ubered PW, and a JE miner. Spent over a year getting everything for them, and then had them taken from me. Like all the rest of you.

Im really tired of level grinding to play a game thats basically all end game content. Theres very little out there (understand ive been away for a few months as of this last week so I dont know if theres been much mid level content added if at all) to keep someone on a perma-grind occupied. Jobs jobs jobs, and have even nerfed the leveling trade thing from Charon...

For people like me, it might be a dang good idea to give us one toon at 150 automatically til at least beta phase. Others can be grinded up ad nauseum, but I am really ill of level grinding a la groundhog day. Know what I mean? That way I can at least enjoy the content I miss the most, raids. I still havent been to one since 2004. Edited by Ryle

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Wiping might signal the end is near for the EMU. I know many that would just stop playing this game. As for myself I am not sure if I would start over again as the game is now. Yes i realize the plan is to add more content before during and after the wipe, i am just saying if it happened today I am not sure I would start over.

A wipe would really not change much. Maybe just the economics of the game is about it. The same players (if they keep playing) will always dominate in the areas they do now. Its simple they have the time to play enough to make it so.

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I have been playing the EMU non-stop since ST1 and have endured all those P-wipes. Every wipe resulted in loss of players. While some consider starting over as a challenge, most see it as frustrating and disheartening.

I have leveled 5 toons up to 150 since the last wipe but I have been unemployed for an extended period resuting in more play-time than most.

It is true the game economy is not where it was in live but that's mainly due to the huge reduction in playerbase. We have lost several builders because some equate their success with credits they have accumulated and won't build for free.

We are fortunate to have many builders that don't feel that way. It is still a stress test and as such any equipment will go poof. How can you justify charging big money with that in mind?

I agree that end-game content has gotten lots of attention but that only involves well-staffed guilds with the required firepower. Solo players are pretty much excluded from raids. I am unguilded and haven't been on any raids since live.

There is a desparate need for content catered to low to mid level players. Many times in New-player chat I have seen players asking what's next after they get their beginner skills only to learn they have nothing but grinding to look forward to until they get big and strong.

I would suggest no wipe until all of the hu'd missions are finalized and working as intented then starting over will be like having new content.

Lastly, to all those players that welcome a wipe because they're bored, feel free to delete your toons and replace them. I for one want to reap the benefits from all my hard work and keep my 150's thank you.
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Yeah that too, not just that AAA's mostly do the f2p's which draws people away, but adding a wipe where they need to start over again, so start over again at one of those games instead of here, I think is a factor too or adds to it. Takes a long time to move up higher in levels, especially for us casual players. You start over again, that's pretty much a game changer, and you wind up repeating everything you did for the past six months or year.

Purging inactive characters sounds more attractive, as many games do anyway. Though even then, returning players nay not be very happy about that.
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I swore there was going to be a player wipe middle of last year. It was about the time I was starting a new job I knew was going to eat my life for a while so I decided I'd hold off on playing again for a while, at least until the wipe was done and over with. I just reappeared and found out that there's been no wipe and that'd given me some measure of hope that I didn't have to start from scratch, that I would indeed have a character to fall back on. From my perspective, I'm against a wipe. Although I don't have 6-LVL 150's lying around, I do have a couple characters with a couple levels that I can continue to build on. A player wipe would set me back probably as long as some of the most dedicated would have to spend on 2-150's...

For now, "Pre-Gold" a wipe would just be irritating, time-consuming, and to some who hate having to start over - the last straw (I'm not saying I'm one of those - it just seems like there are some of those around here).

The only time I can see a player wipe being worth it, would be if the game went "Gold." I played the original betas, and (don't correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a good decade since then) I recall that the only wipe was when the official game went Gold. However, if this game does go official again - hopefully it'd be with new graphics (to encourage the youth of today to be captivated by the pretty moving pictures on their computer screens) and for those of us who'd stuck it out through the Pre-Gold times, some sort of bonus (like 10 million credits or something like that).
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