Raids: What Are The Expected Numbers Per Raid So We Can Get These Balanced?

[jrichards]

I have had conversations with many players stating that the Dev team has reduced all raids so they can be done by a single group. I am wondering if this is true, if this is just 'what players' think is true, or if there are a ton of bugs dealing with raid balancing that no one is writing up because they love 'free' loot (potentially exploiting the current code) and beleiving the EMU is working as designed.

Dev expected # of players to complete the following raids to acertain balance:

Ghost of Blackbeard:
Red Dragon Station:
Fishbowl:
Celestial Warder:
Oni:

[Tienbau]

I am going to be looking into mob behaviour and raids next, but from the perspective of making them behave a bit better; and also expanding on what is possible to happen during raids.

I'd say this is one of those rumour things that sweep through from time to time, I don't know of any talk of changing loot etc. AFAIK there's no free loot bugs is there?

[Hatu]

[quote name='Crichton' timestamp='1326941260' post='51777']
I have had conversations with many players stating that the Dev team has reduced all raids so they can be done by a single group. I am wondering if this is true, if this is just 'what players' think is true, or if there are a ton of bugs dealing with raid balancing that no one is writing up because they love 'free' loot (potentially exploiting the current code) and beleiving the EMU is working as designed.

Dev expected # of players to complete the following raids to acertain balance:

Ghost of Blackbeard:
Red Dragon Station:
Fishbowl:
Celestial Warder:
Oni:
[/quote]

Some of these could just be a matter of opinion. I have heard the same thing, but have yet to find anywhere where a Dev stated it, in-game or on the forums.
Do you mean compared to live or a more recent change to the emu?

[kjeron]

They are all far easier than they were in Live, their difficulty itself is a work in progress.

As for their status in the Emu: AFAIK they have only been getting tougher, both directly or indirectly.
All mobs now have permanent damage resists.
Social and factioned aggro have been getting better, though still not finished.
Support classes have started seeing some aggro from healing and other skill use.
Kuei Station was made immune to a variety of skills and has a 25k beam range.
GoBB was put into formation with 5 Minions to prevent summoning or pulling him out alone.
Warder was never a raid in live, only an instant damage contest. The contest here is getting their first after a restart or knowing when it will spawn.
Fishbowl here has never required more than a single healer. Only changes to the mobs I know of is the Minions of Nesshix had their shield caps increased to several million, but actually killing the fish is still a simple matter, hunting them down is a PITA though. They run and hide, sometimes out of bounds, if they dont spawn out of bounds to begin with. A JD with telescopium is required sometimes just to find them. This only serves to make each wave easier though, since fish are only fought 2-3 at a time while you wait for others to reach you, then go and search for the rest.

All "guardian" mobs do suffer from a problem in their AI though. They cannot shoot players while trying to follow their ward. The Precursor Alpha's and the L65 BB Minions that spawn with the Troller/GoBB specifically, if you keep the boss moving and don't touch the PA/Minions, they won't shoot back.

One thing that raids don't need right now is requiring more healers, the client already crashes regularly around a combination of 20 players/mobs.
3 may be the bare minimum for most right now(slow, but doable), but a full group is the maximum for stability.

[Tienbau]

yep there's still a lot of packet choke work to do, along the same lines as LoD is to graphics - the further away the mob/player is, the less detailed updates you need about them.

We still have the guardian formation thing happening? I thought that had been sorted - will check again.

I'll have to start an AI trouble thread.

thanks,

TB

EDIT: actually call it a 'MOB Behaviour' thread, I think 'AI' is a bit too kind for it at the moment! We won't call it AI until you are able to stop the mobs dead in their tracks with simple paradoxes, contradictory or nonsensical sentences.

player 1 to MOB: "Whatever player 2 says, he's lying!"
player 2 to MOB: "I'm lying"

Should cause the mob to grind to a halt, overheat then explode.

[Ryle [N7R]]

Expectations on live were:

Controller/Pirate: 3 well geared or experienced groups
Fishbowl: 4
Tada-O: 2 - 4
Anything else was really 1 group or less.

[Bleakend]

Yes tienbau, destroy the robots with a paradox! It worked on futurama.... at least... will it work on santa as well? j/k.
As far as the Fishbowl goes it seems that U'thatch/Kish-Nethresh 4th/5th waves spawn as a condensed group, along with the Master's wave spawn. Nesshix/Zethren-ti/Ximaz/Bizaeth seem to be hit or miss with one to two stragglers for Biz/Xi (one or two fish go out of bounds) with Zeth/Nesshix being completely scattered all over the map. So for the group make-up we always bring 2-3 healers just in case the waves are spawned as a tight group, but a this moment it seems like its hit or miss.

I wonder if the controller spawn can be made so the PA's are his close friends/ much like the gobb formation where the guardians cannot be separated from the CL 66, so when controller is pulled the two PA's come with him... that would certainly make things a little more difficult.

[Klyde]

The only raid that was setup with 1 group in mind was the Mordana, iirc.

Larger groups to complete raids would be cool, once the server can handle it. Right now 2 or 3 groups is max combined with mobs before major lag sets in.
FB is a pain currently due to mobs having to be searched for to complete each spawn.
Mob AI is a pain at times due to them always trying to run away, we have had FB mobs go out of bounds, GoBB does also if you don't have a JD along.
If the mobs are supposed to be "kiting" the player, their range needs to be decreased. Having mobs run out to 12k away to kite you just means you have to chase them down, which results in them going out of bounds. Not fun.

As far as doing GoBB with less than a group... show me! Cause he hits hard as hell, and the tank usually needs 3-4 healers to stay alive.

[Overtkill]

This kinda goes with what Drained had to say...

FB mobs going out of bounds currently. The content dev's could either make the sector/fb larger by adjusting the parimeter restraints on the sector by 100k in all directions, or adjust the mobs spawn points or roaming range to stay within the constraints of the sector.

I have also seen this in Freya's east edge with roaming nag's moving well out of a players combat range.

Thanks!

-Overt.

[Terrell [BT]]

Whatever the ultimate number needed for the major raids are, it should work in such a way that every class is needed to maximize your chances of success.

[Tienbau]

to address the last two posts:

Sector bounds for mobs is something the overhaul will fix. Same with raid spawns that have a big spawn radius (they will all spawn around the boss), which will also fix the formation exploit.

WRT involving all classes in raids - we know that PW's/TW's/TT's/JD's and JE's have distinct roles in a fight; the PE always is a good pick too for the nice blend of skills.

I think having a 'psionic patch' skill for the JT's might get them more involved, the PP is good simply for firepower, what about the scout's role in a raid? Maybe we could put some more work into sniper style weapons perhaps to make them a bit more useful?

Any more suggestions for raids that might involve contributions from all classes?

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1327204161' post='51954']
to address the last two posts:

Sector bounds for mobs is something the overhaul will fix. Same with raid spawns that have a big spawn radius (they will all spawn around the boss), which will also fix the formation exploit.

WRT involving all classes in raids - we know that PW's/TW's/TT's/JD's and JE's have distinct roles in a fight; the PE always is a good pick too for the nice blend of skills.

I think having a 'psionic patch' skill for the JT's might get them more involved, the PP is good simply for firepower, what about the scout's role in a raid? Maybe we could put some more work into sniper style weapons perhaps to make them a bit more useful?

Any more suggestions for raids that might involve contributions from all classes?
[/quote]

I think that the Scout should lose the Hacking skill, and get a legit raid (support) skill in it's place (something unique). Hacking isn't of much use on a Scout, since they don't have biorepression to complement it, and only get it to L5. A TW would be a better choice there for those reasons, plus his greater firepower & Rally ability.

I think that some of the devices mentioned in the thread about the JT would help, and I agree with you on the psionic patch, perhaps that could be something she gets as a line of devices, or a mini-line starting at L5. If not that way perhaps a 135 skill though I think I favor something comparable to a confuse skill I'd mentioned in the JT thread (though I'd rather see that as a L7 skill). Mentioned some for the Scout as well.

Perhaps we need some new official threads to discuss just the Scout & Seeker for their roles in groups and raids. If the devs could set out some parameters as to what's possible, so we don't make requests that are impossible to be done.

[sprayja]

Basicly its this man from my perspective fishbowl can maybe be done with 2 groups 1 combat 1 healing/looters the warder is solo RD base 2 groups combat hardened Coltroller 1 1/2 groups and BBG 2 solid raiding goups BBG is fine as is except for deflects are alittle high Troller is ok except for minions some times will wonder a long ways of fishbowl i've stated in a diffrent topic Warder way to long spawn timer and way to easy and the RD base Where is he? havent seen him in a while also mordona is a 1/2 raid group 1 PW 1 TT and 1 JE could do it without deaths maybe make it alittle harder thats my perspective aobut it there is room for change this is my opinion not what everyone has to think.

[Rezwalker]

saw the base at nav aragoth prime 9 today

[Bellshade]

To kill the hardest boss in this game (GoBB0 you need a raid of one JD now . For over a month the mobs there (minions and GoBB) can be bugged out to where they dont even fire back. So making a big guild now is a waist of time. I had a chat with the head BETA+ a week ago and was hoping this would change . It may be that this exploit for lack of better word for it maybe hard to fix . I'm sure the DEV's do not want less raiders to be able to kill the the hardest raid in this game . BTW this bug is still happening after the fix to make buffs not stick anymore. Edited April 29, 2012 by Bellash

[cpwings]

[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1327204161' post='51954']
to address the last two posts:


what about the scout's role in a raid? Maybe we could put some more work into sniper style weapons perhaps to make them a bit more useful?

Any more suggestions for raids that might involve contributions from all classes?
[/quote]

We all know the Scout is not the DPS king. And bringing only JS and Hull Patch to the table limits thier usefullness to a group. Currently the Sniper rifle with it's long cool down, requirement to sit still for what seems like an eternity and tiny stack size make it not worth the effort IMO. How about changing it's damage to target mobs scanners instead giving the group some relief to recuperate/heal while still attacking.

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='cpwings' timestamp='1335744585' post='57183']
We all know the Scout is not the DPS king. And bringing only JS and Hull Patch to the table limits thier usefullness to a group. Currently the Sniper rifle with it's long cool down, requirement to sit still for what seems like an eternity and tiny stack size make it not worth the effort IMO. How about changing it's damage to target mobs scanners instead giving the group some relief to recuperate/heal while still attacking.
[/quote]

Jenquai already can blind enemies' scanners with the Coma line of devices. I do agree with the Scout needing much more than they currently have to be needed in a raid, but that particular ability is already covered in JE/JW/JT gear.

I think that the scout will need at least 3 unique & useful things that they can bring to a raid to be viable, probably more. The JT will also need the same thing. Has to be done in a way that there isn't too much overlap between the TT, JT, JE, and Scout. NF 5 may be helpful in the Controller for the gravity well, but I don't think that it can't be done without a Scout. AFAIK none of the other raids involve environmental effects of any kind. Maybe some in the future will. Afterburn, if there are no formation requirements, would probably be somewhat useful, especially if there's a possiblity of avoiding incoming missiles or projectiles.

There will probably need to be a couple of new debuffer effects for the Scout to make them more needed.

[Ryle [N7R]]

For the seeker: Negate Repulsor Field. >.> Damn minions.

For the scout: A "stun" effect usable say every 30-45 seconds that could basically freeze a raid mob (maybe with a chance to fail on the final boss) for 15-20 seconds, cutting down some of the initial DPS or something.

Im a big fan of making those two support classes into debuff machines, so anything out of the box like that really tickles me.

[Taluna6]

Ok first of all, im from Germany so my English might not be that exact as it should be and i beg for pardon if i use words that might be wrong.

The question for me is will the raids be only for the realy BIG guilds?? I mean the timed spawn raids in life like 'troller, gate raid, RD station where in the hands of the big guilds per Server.
U had to prove your worthyness if not in one of the big guilds to even paticipate at those raids (speaking from Pegasus) and bid on the Loot (yes it was sold ...the bigpot divided to all participated players).
Me and some friends running a small german speaking community guild (4 active and 4 inactive Members 3-6 to come maybe). atm we 4 people are able to run a full group into a fb and clear it. Some might say thas not as intended but we like it that way (its hard work with 2PW 1TT 1TE 1PP 1TS but its doable) we would try the 'troller or GoBB but most times its already shredd by the big guilds.
So if u make the raids harder (need 2-3 full groups to finish) u take small(est) guild(s) the chance to do em on thier own and need to BEG for help from the big guilds. I think they will help, no question most of the old EnB Gamers are really cool ppl.
The problem for us is that me and maybe 1 other are half as good in english to write and maybe to talk on TS3 (been years that i had a conversation in English) and we would have to translate/would need time to tell them others what to do and what not.

The same way is that smaller guilds need to ask the bigger guilds to let him life when they want the troller or GoBB to give a shot.
Dont get me wrong i dont wanna see freeloot i work for my items, but let us a chance to do the non timed raids with a full good stuffed group.
I liked the raids in life 5-10 groups that wanted to kill the troller or the gate raid (remember sometimes 50% of groups had to gate or dock to get rid of lag) DT Bosses was a dept and item crash derby to spawn and kill (what a time) but i dont think we have the population to get that back atm. Edited June 12, 2012 by Aru

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339510669' post='58831']
For the seeker: Negate Repulsor Field. >.> Damn minions.

For the scout: A "stun" effect usable say every 30-45 seconds that could basically freeze a raid mob (maybe with a chance to fail on the final boss) for 15-20 seconds, cutting down some of the initial DPS or something.

Im a big fan of making those two support classes into debuff machines, so anything out of the box like that really tickles me.
[/quote]

Woo hoo! I like these ideas for those 2 classes, buffs/debuffs never seen before to help them find their niche. Both having explorer elements this works well. Having the Exploring Trader & Trading Explorer do buffing/debuffing, in new ways is a good thing IMO and will help get them up to speed.